rushing wonders

[GoodSarmatian]

Plus if the builder needs to be on the tile, you would only be able to use one charge per turn on the wonder anyways, so it would be limited that way as well.

That's another good point.
Still a very useful ability for early wonders, or if you want a wonder that requires a specific tile and you only have a small, low-production city hat could build it. It will probably end up being one of those abilities that are very strong in the early game if used properly, but that you won't actively use much in the mid or late game.

They could also make it be 20% of the remaining hammers needed.

That would be so obviously OP that it could happen in BE, but Civ 6 has Dennis Shirk as a lead designer and he knows what he's doing.

 

[Hakan-i Cihan]

Also the conversion from the required production for producing a builder to the production a builder can contribute to a wonder is essential. So in the end it could be less effective, but builders can function as sort of production storage for wonders.

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[SammyKhalifa]

That would be so obviously OP that it could happen in BE, but Civ 6 has Dennis Shirk as a lead designer and he knows what he's doing.

Just curious but you have such a strong reaction that I wonder what I'm missing here.

Say a wonder costs 1000 hammers. If you "burn" a worker when beginning the wonder it gets you 200 hammers towards your goal. If you use one when you're halfway done it gets you 100.

If you use a worker to start your wonder you have 800 hammers to go. The second worker would get you 20% of the remaining hammers, or 160. The more times you use the builder ability, the less worth it is.

I'm sure you're right, and it's not like I put that much thought into the suggestion, just wondering.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

Sorry, I have such a strong reaction because I am still bitter about Beyond Earth. It could have been so good with proper balancing.

The problem with remaining hammers is that it would basically make all but the early wonders cheaper at no opportunity cost. Let's assume a builder costs 100 hammers and the wonder you want costs 1000. Training a builder and then starting to build the wonder in the same city would be quicker than building the wonder right away. You'd immediately get 200 hammers for the 100 you invested and can boost production three more times. I am almost positive that you won't get more hammers out of a builder than it costs to train one and the ability will be primarily used to shift production from one city to another, or save up for a wonder you're about to unlock in a couple of turns.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Yeah I got you. Yeah I wasn't even considering the cost of later wonders vs. the early ones. I suppose that's what I get for pulling something out of my [ear] and throwing it on here.

I know what you mean about BE too. I really WANTED to like that game but could never get into it because even I could see the value in just traderoute spamming.

 

[stealth_nsk]

It's a bit early to talk about balance:

1. We don't know how much builder cost and how much they rush wonders.

2. We don't know other civ uniques. They could be as strong. And Great Wall unique improvement could be fun, but doesn't look that strong to me.

3. We do know the wonders have other limitations - many of them have additional requirements and they need a tile to stand on.

Although it seems in the second half of the game China could win race for some specific wonders if planned ahead.

 

[Hakan-i Cihan]

I am almost positive that you won't get more hammers out of a builder than it costs to train one and the ability will be primarily used to shift production from one city to another, or save up for a wonder you're about to unlock in a couple of turns.

I hope that is the case and maybe even better that it would be less hammers is acquired from the builder than required to train it. Another thing is that a builder could contribute only say a maximum up to 50% of the production cost of building a wonder.



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[SammyKhalifa]

I hope that is the case and maybe even better that it would be less hammers is acquired from the builder than required to train it. Another thing is that a builder could contribute only say a maximum up to 50% of the production cost of building a wonder.



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Well you also have to consider the value of those hammers vs. the value of having another mine, farm, etc.

Still, I agree that's it's way too early to be talking about balance considering we don't even know the rules of the game, and that I was just spitballing a "diminishing returns" type idea anyhow.

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

It's a bit early to talk about balance:

1. We don't know how much builder cost and how much they rush wonders.

2. We don't know other civ uniques. They could be as strong. And Great Wall unique improvement could be fun, but doesn't look that strong to me.

3. We do know the wonders have other limitations - many of them have additional requirements and they need a tile to stand on.

Although it seems in the second half of the game China could win race for some specific wonders if planned ahead.

For the record I don't think we KNOW what the Great Wall does? for all we know it could count as a impassable terrain to enemy units.

 

[RohirrimElf]

Although it seems in the second half of the game China could win race for some specific wonders if planned ahead.[/QUOTE]


It makes me wonder what special trait Egypt will have. This civilization was about the first pick for many players who wanted to build stuff. Considering Egypt is more of a warmonger now. Or at least likes military civs/dislikes builders/peacefull civs. Its interesting if things get shaken up a bit with civ 6.

 

[Inexist]

Good idea, let's just add a unit in that'lol allow the human player to abuse well timed forest chops effortlessly. I feel there are a ton of things wrong with this whole concept.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Many wonders have some sort of build limitation and even the technology need could mean that true wonder race happen very infrequently. Most likely the rush will cost you production, you get less then a full builder worth of production if you use it to rush a wonder.

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

Good idea, let's just add a unit in that'lol allow the human player to abuse well timed forest chops effortlessly. I feel there are a ton of things wrong with this whole concept.

Has it been confirmed that ALL Builders can do it, or just Chinese ones?

 

[Martin Alvito]

There are tons of ways to balance the Builder rush.

The most obvious is to make the Builder contribute considerably fewer hammers toward the Wonder than it cost to produce in the first place. That forces you to make a whole bunch of calculations along the way:

- How badly do I want this Wonder? (Should I rush at all?)
- How likely is it that someone else will beat me to the punch? (How much should I rush?)
- What's the opportunity cost (in buildings or units) of creating each Builder? (How much should I rush, or should I even bother at all?)
- What's the opportunity cost (in improvements) of sacrificing the Builders that I already have?

As others have noted, there are other ways of limiting the utility of the ability. I think they've learned their lesson from Caravans and Crawlers...they're not going to let us have anything THAT good ever again.

 

[Minor Annoyance]

Builder wonder rush would let you use other city's production on the wonder if another city. One thing gets built faster but other cites don't advance.

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[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

You have the disadvantage of not having a unique ability that other civilizations get if you get China.

 

[chazzycat]

in the IGN article, it says China's "cultural bonus" is 4 charges instead of 3. So maybe all civs can rush stuff, but China just has an advantage.

Also, if a worker can insta-build 3 whole improvements, that's some significant opportunity cost right there.

 

[Hakan-i Cihan]

I just checked the video of Quill18 again. A builder is trained in 3 turns (8.3 production per turn) and a pyramid in 17 turns. So a wonder rush should be around 3-5% and not the 15-20% mentioned somewhere. Actually it should not be in percentages but raw hammers as the game progresses the cost of wonder will increase and percentage wise rush on hammers will be overabused by players.

 

[glaivemaster]

Bear in mind that Quill's estimate of 15-20% was just that: an estimate. It was from what he remembered of using the ability, and based on how much he saw the production time change, not on a number he had given to him by the game. He also mentions that it may have been even less than 15-20%

Not passing judgement on the wonder rush idea, just worth bearing in mind that the 15-20% is more like gossip than gospel.

 

[Hakan-i Cihan]

Bear in mind that Quill's estimate of 15-20% was just that: an estimate. It was from what he remembered of using the ability, and based on how much he saw the production time change, not on a number he had given to him by the game. He also mentions that it may have been even less than 15-20%

Not passing judgement on the wonder rush idea, just worth bearing in mind that the 15-20% is more like gossip than gospel.

I am aware of that. I just wanted to especially notify that production rush to wonders is probably not that large.