rushing wonders

[Camikaze]

This essentially sounds like a way of transferring production from other cities to the wonder-producing city. Building a 'builder' will cost x production. If that builder can perform 4 'builds', then a simple transfer of production from one city to another would allow the builder to expend x/4 production with each 'build' on a wonder tile. I reckon this would be powerful enough even if there was some loss of production in that transfer, so it might be the case that each 'build' progresses the wonder by x/5 production, or something.

 

[Louis XXIV]

I hope that is the case and maybe even better that it would be less hammers is acquired from the builder than required to train it. Another thing is that a builder could contribute only say a maximum up to 50% of the production cost of building a wonder.

The former was what I was going to suggest:
Imagine the wonder costs 1000 and the builder costs 200. Imagine that sacrificing the building gives you 100 or 150. Would it be worth it? It could be. Essentially, it would allow you to use your entire empire's production towards the wonder rather than just a single city's. I think even a 1:1 ratio of builder cost to value would be a reasonable trade.

 

[daft]

According to Quill, rushing Wonders with Builders is a China UA.

Greece, Egypt, France, US, India, even Germany and Russia could use a bit of a bolster in the wonder building as well. (not to forget Babylon, England, Rome and Byzantium)

But since this is the way it is, China just became my favourite civ in CVI (when I finally buy it-won't be sometime in 2017, I never rush this buying stuff)

 

[StittsvileJamie]

Greece, Egypt, France, US, India, even Germany and Russia could use a bit of a bolster in the wonder building as well. (not to forget Babylon, England, Rome and Byzantium)

But since this is the way it is, China just became my favourite civ in CVI (when I finally buy it-won't be sometime in 2017, I never rush this buying stuff)

ironic.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

ironic.

He should get some builders.

 

[averysillyman]

This essentially sounds like a way of transferring production from other cities to the wonder-producing city. Building a 'builder' will cost x production. If that builder can perform 4 'builds', then a simple transfer of production from one city to another would allow the builder to expend x/4 production with each 'build' on a wonder tile. I reckon this would be powerful enough even if there was some loss of production in that transfer, so it might be the case that each 'build' progresses the wonder by x/5 production, or something.

Besides just transferring production between a second city to one that is building a wonder, being able to rush wonders with builders has another big benefit that I think a lot of people are overlooking. China can essentially "pre-build" its wonders, meaning you should be able to get wonders a lot faster than normal if you're specifically focused on it.

While you're researching the tech to unlock the wonder you really want, you can be building builders, each of which contributes hammers to the wonder as soon as you unlock your tech, giving you a boost in terms of timing. This is much faster, compared to other civs who need to research the tech before they are able to start production for the wonder. (This is somewhat similar to pre-building units and then upgrading them all with gold in Civ 5, allowing you to have much earlier Composite Bowmen or Artillery than if you had started training them after you unlocked Construction/Dynamite).

Also, if the builder stays on the tile after rushing the wonder, preventing other builders from moving there and doing the same, you could just hoard a bunch of 1 charge builders (assuming they're similar to Civ 5 Missionaries and disband when their last charge is consumed). If instead we're limited to 1 rush per turn even if we use the 1 charge builder trick, then the UU is a bit less powerful, though still really good in the right spots.

 

[Amrunril]

Quill estimated that the builder added about 15-20% production per charge.

It was 15-20% of whatever wonder he was building. I would suspect/hope that the actual bonus is a flat number of hammers, as wonder costs will increase as the game progresses while builder costs presumably remain constant.

 

[Seek]

It was 15-20% of whatever wonder he was building. I would suspect/hope that the actual bonus is a flat number of hammers, as wonder costs will increase as the game progresses while builder costs presumably remain constant.

I kind of hope the opposite, if it's a flat amount then early game it borders on mediocre and in the end game it's useless. Looking at the video again, it shows the Oracle still had 3 turns of production remaining, while the city was generating 8, so that's a range of 17-24 production. That amount would, I assume, be trivial for late game wonders given scaling from previous titles in the series.

 

[Gali]

Its also nice that it does not allow for instant wonder construction. You can only have 1 builder performing the task once per turn. It will make china the new wonder civilization though. Add in the powerful builder bonus and whatever the Great Wall UI does and I see it being a premier builder civ.

 

[Hakan-i Cihan]

Marbozir did also mention that rushing a wonder with builders is (part of) China's UA. So apparently it is not a misconception of Quill18 regarding China's UA towards builders (what I was hoping for). So I think/hope there will be another restriction to wonder rushing, because the required hammers for a builder appears much less than it can contribute to a wonder in 4 rushes. Maybe the wonder can be rushed only once?

 

[Lazy sweeper]

Presuming there is none Mayan longspear thrower with the UA to enslave multiple sacrificial builders, it seems balanced. Still give an upgrade ability to generic slingers to enslave could balance that. Rush spaceship parts with stacked builders would be nonsense, so at some early stage, the ability to rush wonders should be more costly than worthy.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

I kind of hope the opposite, if it's a flat amount then early game it borders on mediocre and in the end game it's useless. Looking at the video again, it shows the Oracle still had 3 turns of production remaining, while the city was generating 8, so that's a range of 17-24 production. That amount would, I assume, be trivial for late game wonders given scaling from previous titles in the series.

Except late game the Builders are also trivial cost.

(also I remember hearing China might only be able to do it on early wonders anyways)

 

[King Jason]

Besides just transferring production between a second city to one that is building a wonder, being able to rush wonders with builders has another big benefit that I think a lot of people are overlooking. China can essentially "pre-build" its wonders, meaning you should be able to get wonders a lot faster than normal if you're specifically focused on it.

While you're researching the tech to unlock the wonder you really want, you can be building builders, each of which contributes hammers to the wonder as soon as you unlock your tech, giving you a boost in terms of timing. This is much faster, compared to other civs who need to research the tech before they are able to start production for the wonder. (This is somewhat similar to pre-building units and then upgrading them all with gold in Civ 5, allowing you to have much earlier Composite Bowmen or Artillery than if you had started training them after you unlocked Construction/Dynamite).

Also, if the builder stays on the tile after rushing the wonder, preventing other builders from moving there and doing the same, you could just hoard a bunch of 1 charge builders (assuming they're similar to Civ 5 Missionaries and disband when their last charge is consumed). If instead we're limited to 1 rush per turn even if we use the 1 charge builder trick, then the UU is a bit less powerful, though still really good in the right spots.

All of this is subject to Opportunity cost. If I'm spamming builders in preparation of rush-buying a wonder, sure, I'll get the wonder, that's great. But I've just spent X turns on the builders required instead of anything else that could be more useful in that moment. Which is the same risks people take when they spend time trying to get a wonder as well; the risk isn't just "will I be the first to complete it?" it's also determining if that's the best use of your 30 turns, or whatever "excessive" turn in investment needed. Often, the time spent on a wonder could instead be a good portion of your army, as an example.

I think rush-buying wonders is a fine idea and I don't think it comes without it's own risks. If someone marches on your border and you have an army of builders, well, that wonder isn't going to stay yours for very long.

Or if your spamming builders in preparation for a wonder and someone else is spamming libraries - Sure, when you both discover X tech, you will grab the wonder. Even if they discover the tech before you. But they'll be onto the next one and the next one sooner.

Conceptually builder-spam seems feasible. However I think we'd really need to be able to dissect the opportunity costs of such a strategy to be able to remark on it's strength.