Sad Irony in History

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by jon78
you really think there was no ppl living in Israel before the sionistic movement?

There were very little eople here since before the sionist movement this land was mostly rocks, desert and swamps.

I know several orthodox jews in Israel who claims the Palestinian ppl is a hoax. they say that they are arabs from other countries claiming to have lived in Israel and only claim their palestinian nationality because they hate jews.

Er... I'd agree that it's possible some claim to have lived here for political reasons.

But I claim the whole people is a hoax. Niether does most of Israel.

however, according to several orthodox schools in New York, the jews should stay the hell out of Israel. according to them, Israel doesn't belong to the jews anymore.

They don't matter since they're not Israeli.

[qutoe]now, I have no problem with either. the problem I have is that the Israelis think that the land belongs to THEM. that _IS_ racist.
if a swede told a serb or turk that sweden belongs to the swedes everybody would say that he / she is racist. and I would agree. if a JEW says Israel belongs to the JEWS everybody seem to agree, just because the jews have had a hard time throughout history. say that to the native american indians and they'll probably scalp you.[/quote]

Look, almost every people on the planet have thier own state. Swedes have sweden. germans have germant. No reason for Jews not to have Israel.

Saying Israel belongs to Jews doesn't mean we should kick out or mistreat minorities. It simply means that Israel should remain an ethnic democracy with a jewish majority.

Had sweden lost it's swedish majority, it would cease being the land of swedes. And many swedes wouldn't want it to be so, and I accept it.

I generally think the idea of nations is great, and that every one should have a home. If a non-jew wants to live in Israel? ok. If he wants to be a civilian it's more problematic since as a Jew I want Israel to express my culture.

I want Israel to be an ethnic democracy. Not a democracy of the people. Sorry if that sounds racist, but no every country in the world should be like America or Canada.

[q]or the gypsies which had a much larger percentage of their population killed during hitlers european tour than the jews.[/q]
Not to my knowledge.

[q]and it was NO international decision that the state of Israel should exist. it was a result of a jewish terrorist group called the grey wolves (filled with nazi collaborators, working under support from Hitler during WW2 in moving jews to Israel, away from Europe).[/q]
Erm , I might be misinformed but I'd call it bull****.

The only thing nazis under support from hitler did to jews is to kill them.

 

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by jon78
it is EXTREMELY racist to say that a nation belongs to a certain ppl.

It's racist to say a nation belongs to a certain race and everyone else should get out.

Jews don't suggest Israeli arabs get out. They simply want Israel to keep the Jewish symbols.

that would be to shut everybody else out.

Since when is a country responsible for everybody?

Each country takes care for it's citizens, and whomever it wants else.

and in Israel it is even more ridiculous. the arabs and the jews look almost the same.

Not really.

I would say that at least 20% of all the Israelis living in Israel is really arabs. at LEAST. of course they say they are jewish, otherwise their doomed to death and poverty.

Now that is very very misinformed.

20% of Israelis are indeed arabs. Many think of themselves as palestinians.

They get practically the same rights and treatment by law. Only they aren't obliged to serve in the IDF.

and really? I would love to read your "history books". can you give me their name so I can check it out for my self? what's their ISBN-number? it's very amusing to see how the written history is different in different parts of the world.

I'm glad it's amusing to discover new facts and different opinions.

it was NOT a UN decision. not according to ANY book I've EVER read, even though the sionists seem to want it that way, and say it was the way it happened.

You really should update your books.

Maybe they're all from pre-1947.

when it comes to Hitler and Israel I am not going into a debate, both Hitler and my resources are very ambivalent in the matter. I would certainly not say he wanted to wipe the jewish ppl from the earth either, by looking at the numbers and stats.
I'd rather say he was a very morbid artist with a sick sense of esthetics. he shipped alot of his closest jewish friends to america long before the holocaust evolved in reality. in ages to come, let's say 300-1000 years, if man lives that long, Hitler will probably be remembered more like an esthetic performing artist of war like genghis khan (which of course were a horrible dicator just like him, but not known to us).

Erm, let's say I think your views are a bit wierd since they're based upon info no one has ever heard of.

 

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by jon78
it's funny for me who had relatives in c-camps during WW2 to be called a holocaust denier. and it's very interesting not to be able to argue with stuff that belongs to the jewish history. why monopolize history? have you ever heard this line before: "the winning side writes the history"? do you ever think there is a history book that claims "the truth". totally objective?

I think you are having troubles getting people to understand you.

Reading this post I see you have different ideas from what I thought before. You don't express yourself as well as you should.

do you think your sources are objective? CNN is probably the least objective of all the western newschannels, and in the US this is the perhaps most important one as most ppl watch it.

BBC is less objective about Israeli-Arab conflict.

[q]back to the UN resolution. that's bringing the story out of it's context. correct me if I am wrong but "the jewish state" the UN resolution accepted covered nothing else than the jewish settlements current -46. how many percent of the current state of Israel is that? 2%?[/q]
That would be, I'd say around 60-80% of current Israel.

now, I am aware of the palestinian uprising but I don't see the ethnical cleansing of the Palestinian ppl any different from Hitler's.

But there isn't ethnical cleansing.
And there never wasn't.

how many ppl in Israel would love to see the palestinian ppl wiped out?

Very few little fanatics who have done nothing to make that idea reality.

is that not "the same thing" as the horrible "holocaust" which have NO similar magnitude in history EVER?

The idea is the same, but unlike the holocaust, there was never ethnical cleansing of palestinians.

why come they don't say that Hitler tried to wipe out the gypsie ppl? looking at the numbers this is much more true than the jews.

I disagree that there could be any number which is "more true".

Furthermore I also disagree that the Jews should remind people of the Gypsies. It's a tragedy that they are not noted.

But speaking of that, why aren't 2 million or so, gay and lesbian people not noted?

I can tell you that for some years now, during the holocaust rememberance days, many added a 7th candle to the 6 (representing 6 M jews) to remember the gypsies gas and lesbians.

and NO I don't think it's fair for a nation to use arms even if necessary. I don't believe in nations either.

Then you have a completely different opinion than the rest of the world.

I figure you're probably anarchist universalist, since communists usually believe in armed revolutions.

You'll be pleased to know most of the world disagrees with you.

to answer that question: I'd love to see 25 million afghans coming here. then maybe we could get something done! they could do all the boring stuff I don't want to do.

Great.
So you think it's not racist to bring afghans to do your dirty work.

That's called Slavery and it's not as humanist as you think it is.

[qoute]and no, I don't believe in economic aid either. I don't think it solves any problems. the reason there is developing countries is because we in this part of the world want them to remain developing countries. otherwise that t-shirt you wear would cost much more, and probably been made in the country you live in, and not nicaragua/ china or whatever it says on the back.[/quote]
While there are some specs of light in that, I'd say you've been brainwashed against the evil west and the evil corporations.

about the genetical similarities between the Israelis and Palestinians, of course this isn't something I can prove without having you ppl living there going to have your gene-setup examined. but it would be a great scoop if any of you is a journalist.

But it's simply not true! DOH!

the only history-book I have available at the moment is forum "when happened what 1500-1990", which is not very comprehensive which makes me unable to find most of the stuff I look for. ISBN: 91-37-10047-5.

Swell.

I read dozens of history books and notes. And I keep trying to find more info.

however, I'd love to read your history books. can you give me their ISBN:s please?

Most were Israeli, so I'm not sure they even have ISBNs. I also put them back in the library. Sorry

 

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by jon78
in the aftermath of the wtc-incident I studied the newsreaders voices and tones when they proclaimed the "news".

same day as a 10 minute story of a WTC-victimized family they swapped to a palestinian shot by Israelis on palestinian territory who had to wait for 15 minutes or so until the ambulance arrived, got first help and then finally got killed by a Israeli grenade thrown into the ambulance. the paramedics were killed aswell, of course. the pictures clearly made visible the bulletholes from rifles on the side of the ambulance.
the same day the Israeli army and navy shot several missiles into a palestinian refugee camp. <= observe the word refugee.

during the new york story the tone of the newsreaders where very very emotional. I have no problem with that... but when it came to the palestinian victims they were extremely rational, objective and didn't hint a single emotion in their voices. is it just me or is the media twisted out of context?

A) Israeli ships may have targeted police stations within Gaza. You have to note what do they actually hit, rather than where that building is.

B) I read alot about Israeli misconducts during the conflict, and I've yet to note Israel throwing a grenade into an ambulance. A more likely scenario was that the ambulance carried weapons. It's an observed fact that the palestinian ambulances often are used to carry ammo.