Issues with defining Antisemitism and the 'problem' on The Left

[Lexicus]

This is literal advocacy of terrorism (equating Israeli civilians with soldiers is the fundamental premise behind attacks on them).

The IDF is waaaaaaaaay more analogous to the KKK than Hamas is.

 

[Senethro]

Abort! Abort! Pull up thread!

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Abort! Abort! Pull up thread!

Grab your parachute, I suspect that it is too late.

 

[Mouthwash]

The IDF is waaaaaaaaay more analogous to the KKK than Hamas is.

You, friend, can go to Israel and openly display a keffiyeh and henna-dyed beard with no danger. You can serve in the IDF if you drop the beard. I challenge you to walk into Gaza wearing a yarmulke and chat up the locals.

 

[Lexicus]

You're missing the point. Only one of those organizations terrorizes a defenseless population with no legal rights in order to maintain a regime of racial supremacy.

 

[Broken_Erika]

Isn't there a group of Super-Ultra Orthodox Jewish that supports Hamas because in their view the State of Israel could only be founded by the Messiah, therefore to them the modern state of Israel is heresy or something?
(Oh, and if the IDF really was like the KKK, there wouldn't be any Palestinians.....but the Israeli far-right and Hamas are made for each-other. Or made by each-other. Same Mindset, Different side. Different Excuses)

 

[brennan]

You have made it clear that you believe antisemitism is a form of racism. Since racism is a right-wing phenomenon, you are asserting that left-wingers cannot be antisemites. I don't see how it could be any clearer.

I thought:

it's possible for left-wingers to be antisemitic

Was much clearer. Please do not post again that my opinion is the exact opposite of what I clearly state it to be.

 

[Mouthwash]

You're missing the point. Only one of those organizations terrorizes a defenseless population

Which killed hundreds of Israelis.

with no legal rights

They can spit on Israelis walking on the Temple Mount with an IDF escort, and the escort will prevent the Israelis from responding in any way (witnessed by my mother).

in order to maintain a regime of racial supremacy.

So these people don't exist.

I thought:

Was much clearer. Please do not post again that my opinion is the exact opposite of what I clearly state it to be.

Your previous claims are not compatible with your 'clear' statement. Do you retract them?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Please do not post again that my opinion is the exact opposite of what I clearly state it to be.

Good luck with that. This:

At least I won't be misquoted, have my words distorted or taken out of context by you then.

is an immediately recognizable description of the Hogwash style, and this:

You clearly aren't going to conduct a rational conversation here, so this will be my final response to you.

is about the best outcome you can hope for with him.

 

[Lemon Merchant]

Moderator Action: The arguing and backbiting will stop now. It is clear that this is a sensitive topic for some people. Try to be mindful of that when posting, and discuss the topic compassionately.

 

[innonimatu]

(Oh, and if the IDF really was like the KKK, there wouldn't be any Palestinians.....but the Israeli far-right and Hamas are made for each-other. Or made by each-other. Same Mindset, Different side. Different Excuses)

The kkk didn't want to exterminate all blacks, they just wanted to keep them as servants without political power. In that they are similar to several political groups within Israel. And to be fair Israel does have an arab population also, with rights, so their local kkks haven't won. Yet. The thing to do is try to prevent it from winning, ever. It seems to me that will require outside pressure, they way things are. I dislike states interfering with other countries' internal issues. But its not necessary some kind of full economic embargo to get their attention. Cutting collaborations, withdrawing favored treatment, may be enough and is legitimate.

They can spit on Israelis walking on the Temple Mount with an IDF escort, and the escort will prevent the Israelis from responding in any way (witnessed by my mother).

Those who do that are the arab israelis (the citizens), or the disenfranchised palestinians?

I think you'll understand what I mean with this question, but if not: a country must give its people a worthwhile stake in its society if these people are to be encouraged to play according to shared rules for good coexistence. When they are pushed around and left with little to lose, obviously violence and breaking the rules will increase. And I do blame Israel's governments for doing this. The Israeli right and Hamas kind of help each other indeed.

 

[brennan]

Your previous claims are not compatible with your 'clear' statement. Do you retract them?

No they are not. You're just being crazy now.

 

[Traitorfish]

The IDF is waaaaaaaaay more analogous to the KKK than Hamas is.

The Ku Klux Klan was comprised of hardline white supremacists. The IDF is mostly comprised of young people trying to get through their term of service and go back to the real world.

This analogy doesn't serve any clear purpose except rationalising the killing of teenage conscripts.

 

[REDY]

Israel should be not untouchable country because holocaust thing. But if somebody wants to destroy you, you have not much choice. You have to defend yourself, your family and your country.
It would be great if arabs would just give up on destroying Israel. I believe that in many things Israel should be role model not only for arab countries.

 

[Lexicus]

This analogy doesn't serve any clear purpose except rationalising the killing of teenage conscripts.

Military targets - on both sides - are fair game as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

The Ku Klux Klan was comprised of hardline white supremacists. The IDF is mostly comprised of young people trying to get through their term of service and go back to the real world.

Different in composition, but similar in method and operational intentions.

I was in the military and don't try to use "but I was just trying to make it through to EAOS and go home" to excuse the things I did, so I am unlikely to afford anyone that opportunity, myself.

 

[HoloDoc]

Israel should be not untouchable country because holocaust thing. But if somebody wants to destroy you, you have not much choice. You have to defend yourself, your family and your country.

You just described the exact reason the PLO was formed.

It would be great if arabs would just give up on destroying Israel. I believe that in many things Israel should be role model not only for arab countries.

The vast majority of "Arab" countries gave up on destroying Israel a long time ago.

 

[Lexicus]

I was in the military and don't try to use "but I was just trying to make it through to EAOS and go home" to excuse the things I did, so I am unlikely to afford anyone that opportunity, myself.

Unlike the US, Israel does have conscription, though.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Unlike the US, Israel does have conscription, though.

Yeah, to me that means that being in the military is even less of an excuse. I signed on to do a job, so I had given up the right to say "hey, screw this, this is wrong." If they had dragged me in that would have been a whole different ball game.

 

[Traitorfish]

Military targets - on both sides - are fair game as far as I'm concerned.

Comparing IDF soldiers to Klansman seems a stronger statement than merely observing that they're "fair game". It implies that they're actively malevolent, and that we should view their violent death as, if not an absolute good, then as an end no better than they had a right to expect. Seems a heavy judgement to pass on kids who are just trying to keep their heads down.