Sad Irony in History

[IceBlaZe]

'or the gypsies which had a much larger percentage of their population killed during hitlers european tour than the jews. or the ukrainians which still has the world number number one serial killer percentage as a result of the nazi 20 million slaughter of their ppl.'

First one wrong: 5 million dead gypsies, 6 million dead jews.

'I know several orthodox jews in Israel who claims the Palestinian ppl is a hoax. they say that they are arabs from other countries claiming to have lived in Israel and only claim their palestinian nationality because they hate jews.'

Second one wrong: Since when 'several' define a whole?

'now, I have no problem with either. the problem I have is that the Israelis think that the land belongs to THEM. that _IS_ racist.
if a swede told a serb or turk that sweden belongs to the swedes everybody would say that he / she is racist. and I would agree. if a JEW says Israel belongs to the JEWS everybody seem to agree, just because the jews have had a hard time throughout history. say that to the native american indians and they'll probably scalp you.'

Third one wrong: Palestine was not a declared country, it was a free land controled by the Empire of great britain. The jews had all rights to buy land and to settle on the land of palestine, it did not belong to the palestiniens just as it did not belong to israel.
But WHEN the UN and the world accepts the existence of a jewish country in palestine, while also doing the same thing on the palestinien side, its the palestiniens problem if they start a war.
Dont compare it to a turk coming to sweden, compare it to a german living in poland and claim the land he is on to be polish.
'We' were jews who settled legitimately and legally on unclaimed land. The palestiniens did not have a country before we came, they did not have their own acknowledged territories, just like they were settled there we came and settled there. you should know that palestiniens are also on lebanon, jordan and other places, but all these countries didnt want them so they put them on palestine.


'however, according to several orthodox schools in New York, the jews should stay the hell out of Israel. according to them, Israel doesn't belong to the jews anymore.'

Who gives a damn? they can think what they want, but since they dont live here, their opinion doesnt apply

If you think that if we think a free land we settled on is ours is racist, than you should also know everyone else on this world is racist. how do you think countries exist? its people that came to free (or in the imperialistic age: conquered) land, settled on it, and on the modern age, sometimes even before that, they were recognized as an independent country and given the right to have their own territory, army and regime.
Why do the polish, or the germans, or the french, or the english, or the dutch, or the americans, deserve a country more than us?

 

[PinkyGen]

Originally posted by jon78

(filled with nazi collaborators, working under support from Hitler during WW2 in moving jews to Israel, away from Europe).

Uhmm, Hitler wasn't moving Jews to Israel, he was moving them to the ghetto and later to the camps. So we now have Jews colloborating with the Nazi's trying to kill them?

 

[damunzy]

Moderator Action:
Let's keep the discussion civil or I will close this thread. I am close to it already as we have many israel/arab threads open as it is.

 

[damunzy]

Originally posted by IceBlaZe
'or the gypsies which had a much larger percentage of their population killed during hitlers european tour than the jews. or the ukrainians which still has the world number number one serial killer percentage as a result of the nazi 20 million slaughter of their ppl.'

First one wrong: 5 million dead gypsies, 6 million dead jews.

He is talking percentages not total number. If you are going to call him wrong then show how many there were before the war and how many after.

 

[Simon Darkshade]

"after WW2, Britain was broke and on the brink of communistic revolution."

Not in my history books, or universe it wasn't.
There was an international political decision to found Israel as a Jewish state. This was ignored by its neighbours, who attempted to finish the job of WW2, and drive the Jews into the sea. They failed.

As for Hitler wanting the Jews to go to Israel, that is false. There was correspondence between Ribbentrop and the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem assuring the latter of Nazi opposition to a Jewsih state. Add to this the well documented and avowed intentions of the Hitlerites to wipe out the Jewish race, I do believe we can discount that particular point.

"as a result most brittish colonies went soverign, and the state of Israel was claimed in the ruins of the former brittish colony, funded by different sionistic movements."

This is a rather convoluted account of the process of decolonization. Decolonization was actually a gradual process, even in Palestine, which was a League of Nations mandate territory rather than an official colony.
I will say again, Israel was founded under the auspices of the UN, under a specific resolution, not through the process you outline.


"if a swede told a serb or turk that sweden belongs to the swedes everybody would say that he / she is racist. and I would agree. if a JEW says Israel belongs to the JEWS everybody seem to agree, just because the jews have had a hard time throughout history. say that to the native american indians and they'll probably scalp you.

or the gypsies which had a much larger percentage of their population killed during hitlers european tour than the jews. or the ukrainians which still has the world number number one serial killer percentage as a result of the nazi 20 million slaughter of their ppl."

I cannot really follow your logic here. Sweden does belong to the Swedes, just as China belongs to the Chinese, and the USA to its citizens. It doesn't matter what their racial origins are, as long as they are loyal and good citizens, IMO. Does not seem racist to me.

Israel is mandated as a Jewish homeland under the UN resolution. End of Story.

Say what to a Native American, gypsy or Ukrainian. The Ukrainians have their own country, and the Romany do not want one as they are travelling people, IIRC. I cannot see your point here.

Nothing that you have put forth has effectively rebutted the case against you, and nor have any of your points conclusively proved Israel to be a racist state.

And the 10% solution was fairly laughable, and well responded to by IceBlaze.

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by LaRo
I think it's the wrong place to talk about it.
Or maybe later, you could build a scenario based on this.

This place isnt called "Off-Topic" just because it sounds well.

 

[Alcibiaties of Athenae]

As I recall, Hitler had some screwy idea about shipping Jews to Madagascar, but Vichy officials wouldn't hear of it, and it wasn't practical either with a war on, so instead, at Bad Wanasee. they decided to exterminate the jews instead.

 

[IceBlaZe]

And we all recall what countries sealed their borders to the fleeing german and polish jews... so calling israel racist now, talking about political absurdness...

Anyway, everyone talks about Israel acts against Palestiniens as racist, dont forget 1 million arabs living as citizens in israel with no discrimination in low, dont forget that in israel there is NO DISCRIMINATION IN LOW. so there are a few jewish ruels, what would you expect from a country that is based as a homeland to the hunted jews all over the world?
Let me put it this way:
If European countries didnt want jews inside there countries, and let hitler kill them, its very hypocritical to say that Israel as a country that is based for jews is racist.

So the palestiniens are under desperate situation, that is correct, but its not all the blame to Israel, and there is nothing racist behind this situation. anynoe says what Israel is doing to the palestiniens is ethnic clensing is just a fool, that has no knowledge of the background in this situation.
Lets put it simple, if we were doing ethnic clensing the palestiniens would not exist anymore, and you would see much more in the headlines than a few kids dead here and there as a result from a mistaken missile - and correct me if im wrong but that happend over 1000 times in afghanistan - a war against terror that the entire world supports.

Its always easy to read the headlines of CNN '2 palestinien kids killed' and blame it all on Israel, but anyone of you ever interested in going through the topic without profiling Israel as racist in the begining?
You should know that the Palestinien Authority manipulates young palestinien children to fight in the front, to go and stand infront of tanks and machine guns, and armed soldiers.
Israeli soldiers never intend to hurt palestiniens if it wasnt for palestinien aggression - they are only there to close passages of terrorists to Israel - and it has its bad side effects, I agree, but there is no other solution. not for now.

 

[jon78]

it is EXTREMELY racist to say that a nation belongs to a certain ppl. that would be to shut everybody else out. what is the rule that says "this here is an australian. you can see that on the persons haircolor or name. he/ she has an anglo-saxon name so it's a qualified australian."
or even more ridiculous "this here is a former vietnamese now ADAPTED into australian. he/ she is now an vietnamese-australian". give me a break.

and in Israel it is even more ridiculous. the arabs and the jews look almost the same. I would say that at least 20% of all the Israelis living in Israel is really arabs. at LEAST. of course they say they are jewish, otherwise their doomed to death and poverty.

and really? I would love to read your "history books". can you give me their name so I can check it out for my self? what's their ISBN-number? it's very amusing to see how the written history is different in different parts of the world.

have you ever heard of the marshall-help? after the WW2, instead of paying the bill the loser-countries got help from the winning countries to prevent further instabilities. japan got alot of funds from the US and germany got a whole lot from great britain. as a result, britain couldn't support their colonies.

it was NOT a UN decision. not according to ANY book I've EVER read, even though the sionists seem to want it that way, and say it was the way it happened.

when it comes to Hitler and Israel I am not going into a debate, both Hitler and my resources are very ambivalent in the matter. I would certainly not say he wanted to wipe the jewish ppl from the earth either, by looking at the numbers and stats.
I'd rather say he was a very morbid artist with a sick sense of esthetics. he shipped alot of his closest jewish friends to america long before the holocaust evolved in reality. in ages to come, let's say 300-1000 years, if man lives that long, Hitler will probably be remembered more like an esthetic performing artist of war like genghis khan (which of course were a horrible dicator just like him, but not known to us).

 

[Alcibiaties of Athenae]

I would certainly not say he wanted to wipe the jewish ppl from the earth either, by looking at the numbers and stats.

Hitler wanted every jew dead, he believed they were the cause of every problem in world history.

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by jon78
and in Israel it is even more ridiculous. the arabs and the jews look almost the same. I would say that at least 20% of all the Israelis living in Israel is really arabs. at LEAST. of course they say they are jewish, otherwise their doomed to death and poverty.

That was the most stupid, unfounded and ignorant remark I ever read about the issue.

 

[IceBlaZe]

JON78, your posts get more ridicolous by the minute.

11/29/1947: UN General Assembly Resolution 181 (Partition Plan)
This United Nations resolution called for the partition of the British-ruled Palestine Mandate into a Jewish state and an Arab state. It was approved on November 29, 1947 with 33 votes in favor, 13 against, 10 abstentions and one absent. The resolution was accepted by the Jews in Palestine, yet rejected by the Arabs in Palestine and the Arab states.

jon78, are you one of the holocaust denialers? hitler made 6 million jews dead! and if no one would stop him, it would go to 11 million, the entire jewish community in europe and Israel.
After that, if he gets control on all of europe, he was sure to attack USA.
you are one of the most ignorant people I have ever seen in the forums.
Half of my dads family are dead because of hitler, they made tons of movies about concentration camps, evident were found about how hitler calculated the max amount of jews in the world, he had conventions saying jews are the source for all problems in the world, and that the final solution is to kill them all.
SIX MILLION JEWISH PEOPLE DEAD IN THE HOLOCAUST AND YOU STILL DONT GET IT.
you are worst than the nazi's, at least the nazis know what happened.


And about your bull**** about Israel belonging to a nation:
Just like Sweden belongs to the swedish government, and the swedish citizens, Israel belongs to the Israeli government and the Israeli citizens.
Israeli citizens are black, yellow, european, ameircan, australian, asian, arabs, druize, christians, bahai, muslims.

 

[DancesWithGoats]

Originally posted by PinkyGen


So we now have Jews colloborating with the Nazi's trying to kill them?

Actually, I think it was not that uncommon for the nazi's to hire Jews as scouts who would track down other Jews so they could be arrested. (not that I agree with jon78's ... weird... theories)

 

[Simon Darkshade]

"it is EXTREMELY racist to say that a nation belongs to a certain ppl. that would be to shut everybody else out. what is the rule that says "this here is an australian. you can see that on the persons haircolor or name. he/ she has an anglo-saxon name so it's a qualified australian."
or even more ridiculous "this here is a former vietnamese now ADAPTED into australian. he/ she is now an vietnamese-australian". give me a break."

IIRC, I wrote that a nation belongs to its citizens. This seems like simple logic to me. Your examples dodge the point in a most ridiculous manner.


". I would say that at least 20% of all the Israelis living in Israel is really arabs. at LEAST. of course they say they are jewish, otherwise their doomed to death and poverty."

If you have any proof of this bizarre claim whatsoever, I would like to see it, as it is the first time one has encountered such a novel notion.

"and really? I would love to read your "history books". can you give me their name so I can check it out for my self? what's their ISBN-number? it's very amusing to see how the written history is different in different parts of the world."

Just try any credible history book in the world. To say Britain was "on the brink of a communistic revolution" is so patently false it beggars belief. Nothing could be further from the truth. The Labour Party did get into power, but they were firmly opposed to communism even then.
Where are you producing your outlandish, outrageous stories from, btw?

The Marshall Plan was a US initiative for Europe, but there is no link whatsoever between it, and the process of the decolonization of the British Empire, something that was happening prior to the war anyway.

IceBlaze beat me to it, and posted the details of the UN resolution. Can you pass that proof off as a Zionist fabrication?

As for arguing that Hitler did not want to wipe out the Jews, that is so ridiculous that I will not bother to answer. The reply has already been given by the others.

"I'd rather say he was a very morbid artist with a sick sense of esthetics."
This is Adolf Hitler we are talking about, right? Tell me, have you ever visited the planet Earth?

 

[PinkyGen]

Originally posted by jon78
it is EXTREMELY racist to say that a nation belongs to a certain ppl. that would be to shut everybody else out. what is the rule that says "this here is an australian. you can see that on the persons haircolor or name. he/ she has an anglo-saxon name so it's a qualified australian."
or even more ridiculous "this here is a former vietnamese now ADAPTED into australian. he/ she is now an vietnamese-australian". give me a break.

Yes, that applies to people currently living in the country. However, countries have the right to decide who can immigrate into their own country. Thus, The US and other countries set limits on how many people can enter, and from where. With Israel, Jews have an automatic right to immigrate, and that is no more racist than what other countries practice.
It's not as if Israel kicked out Arabs already living there. When Jews immigrated to Palestine, the Arabs were not kicked out, instead the population grew. It wasn't until the 47/48 war (that Arabs started) that Arabs were displaced from their homes, most of them following the advice of their own government, who told them to leave for now and come back when the Jews were tossed into the sea.

Originally posted by jon78

and in Israel it is even more ridiculous. the arabs and the jews look almost the same. I would say that at least 20% of all the Israelis living in Israel is really arabs. at LEAST. of course they say they are jewish, otherwise their doomed to death and poverty.

Well, I do know that roughly out of 6 million citizens of Israel, 1 million are ARAB. They are quite free to not be Jewish, and are not discriminated against by law, and they even have Arab political parties. I'll not deny the existence of economic discrimination due to the unfortunate actions of individuals, but its no worse than the conditions of minorities in the US, or maybe of Sunni Muslims in a country ruled by Shi'ites (in the latter case, their conditions are most likely worse).
As for your "closet" Arabs, any evidence for this, besides the "open" Arabs I have spoken of.

Originally posted by jon78

and really? I would love to read your "history books". can you give me their name so I can check it out for my self? what's their ISBN-number? it's very amusing to see how the written history is different in different parts of the world.

And I would love to see your sources too. Iceblaze has already posted some documentation, and might I add a simple Almanac can roughly confirm my numbers.

Originally posted by jon78

have you ever heard of the marshall-help? after the WW2, instead of paying the bill the loser-countries got help from the winning countries to prevent further instabilities. japan got alot of funds from the US and germany got a whole lot from great britain. as a result, britain couldn't support their colonies.

Uhmm, the Marshall Plan was paid for by the US, not the UK. The loser-countries did not pay the bill, as this policy following WWI helped lead to WWII. Britain could not support her colonies because after two world wars, Britain was broke. Also, Palestine was not a colony, but territory given to Britain under the League of Nations (and unprofitable territory at that). Britain referred the matter to the UN, who solved in that resolution Iceblaze has alluded to.

Originally posted by jon78

it was NOT a UN decision. not according to ANY book I've EVER read, even though the sionists seem to want it that way, and say it was the way it happened.

I could provide you with a link to the UN resolution if you so require it. Once again, I suggest you show what textbook you are citing from.

Originally posted by jon78

when it comes to Hitler and Israel I am not going into a debate, both Hitler and my resources are very ambivalent in the matter. I would certainly not say he wanted to wipe the jewish ppl from the earth either, by looking at the numbers and stats.
I'd rather say he was a very morbid artist with a sick sense of esthetics. he shipped alot of his closest jewish friends to america long before the holocaust evolved in reality. in ages to come, let's say 300-1000 years, if man lives that long, Hitler will probably be remembered more like an esthetic performing artist of war like genghis khan (which of course were a horrible dicator just like him, but not known to us).

I don't think this is really worthy of comment, but I'll be brief. I have no idea what Jewish "friends" Hitler had that were deported to the U.S., the stats clearly show 6 million Jews dead, thanks to SS commandos in the USSR and camps such as Auschwitz, so I guess this is all Holocaust denying.
As for Hitler being remembered as Ghengis Khan, well first of all, Khan won as long as he was alive, and I don't think people consider him a role model either.
As for the memory of the Holocaust fading, I hope the phrase "Never Forget" will always remind people of what happened, but sadly as the last survivors die away, it will become more remote. No doubt posts and "ambivalent sources" of yours will aid in this.

Have a nice day.

 

[joespaniel]

My grandfather was Polish American, and a soldier in the US Army, 1939-1945. After fighting the Nazis in N. Africa, Sicily, France and into Germany itself, his unit (5th Infantry Division, Patton's 3rd Army) went through a place called Buchenwald.

He said it was the most horrifying thing he saw during the entire war, and from a man with so much combat experience under his belt, that says alot.

I am tired of history revisionism and debating the right and wrong of the Isreali-Palestinian conflict, and I'm not going to anymore.

My stance is this:

I whole-heartedly support the state of Isreal, and am proud that the United States is its ally. I think it sucks that we have to tip-toe around it for fear of "offending" arab states, who are the real rascists in the middle east.

Its just my opinion. Anyone who has a problem with it can suck an egg.

 

[Richard III]

I know this makes me some kind of crazed lunatic but I don't give a @%!%## about the state of Israel or the Palestine Liberation Organization or who supports what government or what nationality owned what when or who's kalishnikov came from what F-16 manufacturer.

The "states" on either side have clearly demonstrated a total inability to solve their problems. I care about the people - teenagers killed because they wanted to go to a nightclub, bystanders shot because they were on the wrong street, parents unable to provide for families because security precautions won't let them work, businesses who rely on labourers who couldn't make it through the checkpoint that day, and so on.

And, to the Israeli posters, it is without the slightest degree of joy that I tell you that your countrymen - whatever that means - will never be safe from random carnage until your country adopts the same attitude and stops treating - for example - "Syria" and "Syrians" as the same thing. I'd make the same remark to the Palestinians posting on this forum, but funny, there don't seem to be a lot of Palestinian Civfanatics among us. I could offer an explanation for this, but If I do so somebody might try and find a statistical counterargument about something that stopped being statistical a long time ago...

R.III

 

[G-Man]

there aren't any Palestinians here because Palestinians aren't as rich as people in the western world.
How are we supposed to seperate a goverment from it's people? It's okay for an army to attack us but when we retaliate there can't be any civilians casualties? Ofcource there will. Explosives can't tell the difference between a good man and a bad one.

it is EXTREMELY racist to say that a nation belongs to a certain ppl. that would be to shut everybody else out. what is the rule that says "this here is an australian. you can see that on the persons haircolor or name. he/ she has an anglo-saxon name so it's a qualified australian."
or even more ridiculous "this here is a former vietnamese now ADAPTED into australian. he/ she is now an vietnamese-australian". give me a break.

and in Israel it is even more ridiculous. the arabs and the jews look almost the same. I would say that at least 20% of all the Israelis living in Israel is really arabs. at LEAST. of course they say they are jewish, otherwise their doomed to death and poverty.

and really? I would love to read your "history books". can you give me their name so I can check it out for my self? what's their ISBN-number? it's very amusing to see how the written history is different in different parts of the world.

have you ever heard of the marshall-help? after the WW2, instead of paying the bill the loser-countries got help from the winning countries to prevent further instabilities. japan got alot of funds from the US and germany got a whole lot from great britain. as a result, britain couldn't support their colonies.

it was NOT a UN decision. not according to ANY book I've EVER read, even though the sionists seem to want it that way, and say it was the way it happened.

when it comes to Hitler and Israel I am not going into a debate, both Hitler and my resources are very ambivalent in the matter. I would certainly not say he wanted to wipe the jewish ppl from the earth either, by looking at the numbers and stats.
I'd rather say he was a very morbid artist with a sick sense of esthetics. he shipped alot of his closest jewish friends to america long before the holocaust evolved in reality. in ages to come, let's say 300-1000 years, if man lives that long, Hitler will probably be remembered more like an esthetic performing artist of war like genghis khan (which of course were a horrible dicator just like him, but not known to us).

Let's see... you say Israel is racist although it's not true (innocent unless proven guilty. Can you proove it?), you say countries don't belong to their owners (If 25 million Afghans will come to sweden wanting financial support from your goverment and destroying your entire economy you'll change your mind. Israelis live in Israel because we fought for it, and not because of anything else), that the Marshall plan (that saved many people from starving as well as preventing germany from going through the same process they went through after WWI) was bad, that killing millions of innocent civilians is art (Go to one of Hitler's galleries - take a vacation and go to poland, to warsaw or to any other death camp. Then, and not before that, I'll listen to what you think of Hitler's artistic talents)

 

[Richard III]

Originally posted by G-Man
How are we supposed to seperate a goverment from it's people? It's okay for an army to attack us but when we retaliate there can't be any civilians casualties? Ofcource there will. Explosives can't tell the difference between a good man and a bad one.

You have, with the best of possible motives, expressed my point exactly. When you retaliate, who are you retaliating against? Us? Them? Bob and Jill down the street? My dog Zoey?

I have never been more of a supporter of "Israeli retaliation" than lately, where retaliation tends to be swooping in and arresting actual planners or culprits instead of bulldozing a bunch of houses, building a settlement, bombing some random facility or cutting off all access from the OT.

Yes, I am sure it is a frustrating question: "how are we supposed to separate a government from its people." But you know what? That's what you have to do. I'm not being argumentative or petty or trying to be flip. I have too many friends on both sides to be anything but deadly serious when I say that's EXACTLY what Israel has to do.

Violent palestinian extremists will feel safe launching their attacks from their own homes as long as they have the support of their neighbors, and that will continue as ordinary palestinians think they are all in the same crapper together.

When forced to "retaliate," you can take the extra time and effort to attack the lunatics, or you can attack "Palestine" as a symbol or a people or a group, with all the attendent consequences. Take your pick. The first step targets the violence, and pisses off a few people. The broader option pisses off every last one of them, and the cycle goes on. That's my point. Out here in safe, cosy North America, most Arabs/Afghans are getting along fine because they get the fact that the U.S. isn't hunting them, it's hunting culprits. Arabs and Afghans still cross borders, work, raise families, send their kids to decent schools, drink fresh water, vote, and yada yada yada. They have a stake, so they don't take stupid risks to lose it. Does that make us a little less secure? In the short term, no. Attackers will slip through - but you know what? They always will.

The long term, only-hit-the-right-people, patient alternative is the hard way, I know. But I would hate to be in your shoes, living with the "benefits" of the free-fire alternative.

R.III

 

[Richard III]

Whoops, typo - "does this make us more secure in the short term? no" is what it should have read.

R.III