Saturn Embassy & Intelligence

[cav scout]

Well the fact they got MC from SANCTA and haven't responded back yet is not a good sign. We should probably start crafting another note to them. We want to get to the bottom of this without doing anything to hinder them swinging back to our side in the future. Based on what little we know right now the Saturn possibilites are:

1.) They were secretly allied with SANCTA since before the tech deal and never intended to honor it.

2.) They were planning on doing the trade with us but then SANCTA either threatened or convinced them to not honor it and to trade with them instead.

3.) They still plan to honor it and they are trading with SANCTA also to try to stay neutral for the moment.

4.) SANCTA is putting pressure on them and they aren't sure what to do yet.

SANCTA has two big levers against them- the military threat and the argument that we are in an obvious alliance with CAV and therefore are the greatest threat in the game. We need to find a way to counter these levers to at least get Saturn neutral.

 

[mikotian]

well 1) seems unlikely because we had contact well before Sancta. And I think we might have had a deal in place before Sancta had contact as well.


If Sancta threatened them into betraying us, they are not going to honor our deal, at least until Sancta becomes much weaker or we become much stronger. As soon as they "betray" Sancta by trading Feudalism to us, Sancta will see it.

It seems unlikely to me that they would be swayed by moral arguments, but it's always helpful in a negotiation to stand on a moral high ground. I suggest we start here.

The only other concrete piece of leverage I can think of is to tell them that we, Cav, and MS will not be trading anything with them for the remainder of the game because they are not trustworthy... Without trading, they'll fall further and further behind in tech. I wonder if that'll fly.


Another compromise we can make is to tell them to trade Feudalism to Cav. This does not break the letter of the agreement they have with Sancta, but we can receive the tech through Cav. We can leave this as their way out.

Do we have any way of getting Lord Parkin on chat? Or is it messaging only?

Lastly, I doubt Sancta is lying about the Feudalism situation. It would be stupid to lie about something like that which we can verify in a day.

 

[Kaleb]

Well the first thing to do is to remind them we had a written agreement in place to go ahead with this trade. And then we can ask them if they think it is ok to renege on such deals in this game.

If they have made an agreement with SANCTA not go give us Feudalism then we could always work out a deal where they give us MC instead as they do use us some tech anyway.

Regarding a pact with Cav - we may have one, but it's not exclusive and not forever. If Saturn want to end up in a world where it's just them and SANCTA who do they think will win then?

Finally - I don't think Cav are in any pact with SANCTA. Not unless Oyzar is a good 'actor'. And why would they want to help SANCTA wipe us out? How would that benefit them?

Lord Parkin is on chat I'm sure - he plays mp a lot. We could his reputation as a lever in this too - does he want people knowing he's happy to backstab people?

 

[damnrunner]

Maybe Saturn is not going to go back on our trade but is being crafty with their tech trades.

They give feudal to Sancta and get HBR (and probably some other stuff) and they follow through with our initial trade offer and give us HBR.

 

[cav scout]

Well the key is to get a dialogue going with Saturn asap. Is anyone going to head this up?

 

[mikotian]

have we sent any msgs to Saturn since being informed by Sancta that they betrayed us? I believe they have not contacted us in any way right?

I didn't see anything on the previous page. If we have sent something, can someone post the text here?

I'll be happy to draft a note after I see the text.

 

[Kaleb]

I sent a note to parkin asking for his msn and we had the following exchange:

main thing I wanted to check with you was when you thought you would be able to respond to our last message? better to hear your thoughts directly as opposed to discovering your intentions via third parties...

Sorry for the delay... we'll send a message within the next 12 hours, just waiting for the okay from everyone.

Not sure why you mention "third parties", but I hope you're not assuming that any team can speak for another. (We had an issue with Cav trying to speak for you in a chat just recently, and we were rather unimpressed with this disrespect towards both Kaz and Saturn.)

 

[mikotian]

Ok the following is based on the assumption that we have NOT sent Saturn anything and Saturn has not sent us anything back.


Greetings Lord Parkin of Saturn,

As you undoubtedly know, the great nations of Kazakhstan and Santa have shed each other's blood on the field of battle. Have no fear, the infidel Shogun will pay for his lawless transgressions against our people. We hope this unfortunate turn of events will not sour the budding friendship between our two nations.

Upon their formal Declaration of War, the conniving Ninjas informed us that you, the great nation of Saturn, has betrayed our trust by violating our written agreement that you teach us Feudalism in return for the intricate art of Mathematics. Instead, they claim, they will receive Feudalism and not us. This announcement was greeted by disbelief and no small amount of sadness by our people. After all, we had a clear, written treaty and we had given you the gift of our sacred trust! For the world to avoid descending into barbarism and chaos, and for diplomacy to have any meaning at all, a nation must be able to credibly extend its promises and keep them. We look forward to many more centuries of fruitful cooperation between not only our peoples, but also between Saturn and the greater community of nations. But, that sadly will not happen if Saturn is cast out as a pariah among us.

However, knowing the treachery of Sancta, we suspected that their revelation was full of lies and only serves to drive a wedge between us. Or else, we suspect that Sancta used the veiled threat of their armies to twist your will. We understand how these deceitful dogs like to play their game. If either of these cases are true, please inform us and we can take the appropriate next step. If you have an agreement with Sancta, please tell us its exact nature and terms. We wish to stay on the path of peaceful cooperation with your people, and we trust that we will work out a mutually satisfactory solution.

--signature


.
dammit didn't see Kaleb's post. And what the heck is
Not sure why you mention "third parties", but I hope you're not assuming that any team can speak for another. (We had an issue with Cav trying to speak for you in a chat just recently, and we were rather unimpressed with this disrespect towards both Kaz and Saturn.)

is this a gambit to sow confusion and distrust?

 

[cav scout]

We should go easy with Saturn. Best thing to do is wait to see what they say.

And I'm very curious about how CAV allegedly approached them in our name. I'm sure it isn't anything horrible but it would be nice to get a courtesy cc from CAV.

 

[Kaleb]

Message from Lord Parkin:

Greetings Kaz,

Thanks for your message, and apologies for our late reply.

We've certainly noticed the outbreak of war between SANCTA and Kaz just recently. We know almost nothing of the territory under dispute ourselves, but we will watch from the sidelines with interest as events unfold. We have no desire to get involved in any war ourselves at the present time, but we wish you the best of luck in your own battles.

So far we have discovered Cav to our south / south-west, but still don't have much of an idea where any other nations are. We would welcome any new information if you are willing to fill us in. As for Feudalism, I believe we will be completing that in around half a dozen turns. (Our research rate varies, so it's hard to estimate precisely.)

Kind regards,
Lord Parkin of Saturn

 

[donsig]

Finally, a reply from Saturn:

Greetings Kaz,

Thanks for your message, and apologies for our late reply.

We've certainly noticed the outbreak of war between SANCTA and Kaz just recently. We know almost nothing of the territory under dispute ourselves, but we will watch from the sidelines with interest as events unfold. We have no desire to get involved in any war ourselves at the present time, but we wish you the best of luck in your own battles.

So far we have discovered Cav to our south / south-west, but still don't have much of an idea where any other nations are. We would welcome any new information if you are willing to fill us in. As for Feudalism, I believe we will be completing that in around half a dozen turns. (Our research rate varies, so it's hard to estimate precisely.)

Kind regards,
Lord Parkin of Saturn

No indication here that we will not get feudalism from them, though no overt declaration that they will trade it to us. Though they have no reason to make such a declaration out of the blue.

We should surely tell Saturn what SANCTA said (maybe send a copy of the Ninja note?) and also ask nicely what Team Cav said regarding us.

 

[mikotian]

have we sent Sancta's note over yet? if not, we should do it soon.

 

[damnrunner]

This may be a good time to send a note to Saturn regarding future tech trades and the note we got from Sancta regarding feudalism.

 

[donsig]

proposed note to Saturn:

Greetings Lord Parkin of Saturn,

We apologize for our delay in responding to your latest message but the war has taken much of our time. We understand your desire to remain at peace with the world. We have the same desire but this i not possible for us right now. SANCTA began the war and are doing their best to bully the great nation of Kazakhstan. We know that the best way to deal with a bully is to stand up to him and that is what we intend to do.

We noticed you recently conducted a few trades with SANCTA. While we do not like to see our enemy benefiting from these trades we consider you to be our friend and we are happy that you have gained. We do ask that in the future you consider trading with us before SANCTA. We would certainly make any such trades worth your while. We hope our past deals with you have shown our trustworthiness. We have placed our trust in you though you should know that SANCTA has tried to undermine this trust. We are including a copy of their declaration of war which also states that your team will not be trading feudalism to us. We do not believe their lies but thought it best to have them in the open. Your note indicated you would have feudalism around turn 102. Is this still an accurate estimate?

SANCTA's last message to us is included in the spoiler.

donsig of Kazakhstan

Spoiler :

Namaste Kaz,

At This Point you are hearing from the Shogun, Memphus as our nations have entered into a state of war and our diplomatic offices have been overridden.
So let me explain a little more clearly our thoughts on your past message:

This area has been within the Kazakh sphere of influence since the early part of the game and we consider it our territory. We understand that this revelation is disappointing news to your nation, but it is what is it. This city is strategically important to us as well and our claim predates yours.

No The Oracle Directed our first scout here, as such the territory is ours.

We have stayed in the shadow as events have unfolded. When we revealed ourselves to you we did so deliberately and for a very specific reason. We recognized, just as you wisely have, that there is the potential for a conflict between our two peoples. But this conflict can be avoided.

You were in the shadows because it wasn't your territory, hence why as you approached it from the second time (our third time) we had units there, and many more on the way.

It is flatly unacceptable to our nation that this city ever becomes part of the SANCTA empire. If this were to occur we would consider it an aggressive attack against our nation and would act accordingly. But we also realize that you have invested time and resources and it has to be disappointing that you must now give up your plans for this city.

While you are the technology leader, our MFG is 2 times yours. Our Forges are set up. Our Power is through the roof. We will not give up our plans for the city. But are you willing to give up your chance at winning the game for it?
You see that we are at war, and that you have one less chariot.
What you will not see is that we know you expect to be receiving Feudalism from Saturn. But you won't: Saturn will not be trading Feudalism to you, while we are at war and until you have accepted in writing that Angle and all land north is ours. They will be trading it to us instead.

So in order to prevent conflict we think the only possible solution is to raze the city. We understand that this is a bitter solution, but we hope you are prepared to wipe out this city in order to ensure peace.

No, razing the city will cause conflict. As you can see talking about it already has. So we say again will you withdraw? Or are you prepared for further loses?


Memphus, Shogun, SANCTA
Broken wheels and blood
Foreign territory seen
Avalanche begins

Please discuss, edit, revise, etc. Should we propse some specific tech trades?

 

[Indiansmoke]

looks good to me.

 

[cav scout]

Looks good to me too. We want to make sure that part of SANCTA's note where Memphus is quoting our earlier note is understandable. Maybe add quote or italics or something.

 

[damnrunner]

Looks good.

 

[donsig]

Looks good to me too. We want to make sure that part of SANCTA's note where Memphus is quoting our earlier note is understandable. Maybe add quote or italics or something.

I made the changes in the spoiler so that the parts from our original message are now in quotes.

 

[Sommerswerd]

I was against dignifying SANCTA's "lies" with any mention to Saturn, but Donsig's note seems very well crafted to me. Still not sure what we will learn from their (Saturn's)response... but we'll see.

Did I read the diplomacy screen right that Saturn now has Metal Casting? Did they tech it or get it from a trade with SANCTA? I think I remember someone saying they teched it, but if they didn't it might be possible that SANCTA placed some conditions on the trade (ie not trading it, not trading Feudalism etc.). If they teched it themselves, then this last concern does not apply...

 

[Kaleb]

They traded with SANCTA I believe.