[Scenario] Age of Discovery 1492-1792

[Dale]

Rifling allows musketmen? They are using muskets not rifles, rifling would have brought about rifleman, a 19th century arsenal.

"Rifling" is not the invention of the rifle. Rifling is the method of cutting grooves into the inside of the barrel of a gun to force the shot to turn as it leaves the barrel. This shortens the length of the shot but increases accuracy dramatically over straight-shot guns.

Musket: Muzzle-loaded, long-barreled gun with explosive and shot seperate (your pour the powder into the barrel and put the shot on it).

Rifle: Long-barreled, single shot gun with explosive and shot contained in one container (like a bullet).

Therefore, "rifling" as used as a technology is NOT the rifle. Rifles came later once the flintlock enabled a single container with powder and shot in it (at that stage it was in a leather pouch). Hence, musket comes with rifling, rifle comes with flintlock.

Also I notice that bayonet comesmuch later than rifleman still which is inaccurate, and cavalry comes rather early. Also is there really a need for 2 cannon units?

There were some bayonets around earlier, but they weren't in general use. The plug bayonet converted the musket into a pike (you couldn't fire the musket). Also, nearly all plug-bayonets in the early 1600's - early 1700's were just a knife shoved into the barrel of the musket. With the evolving musket design no standard bayonet was used until 1715 when the English assigned the Bess-musket as the standard issue gun to infantry. Only then could mass-produced and used bayonets be applied. Hence the standard bayonet (the design used as standard right to today) appeared in 1725.

The civics still allow too much, representation should come with research as well as nationhood and free market. Freedom of religion should not appear at all.

Genoa had a representative government (modelled off Venice's). That era is ALL about nationhood! Free market, yes probably should move to a later date (macro-economics probably). Freedom of religion? It was a choice in those days, usually associated with excommunication and war, but still a choice a lot of eastern European countries took.

Also the nations still have unique units listed in their opening screen text.

That needs to be fixed up.

Dale

 

[Dale]

BTW, cavalry made a big comeback in the late 16th century, and was demonstrated by their use in 1620 to win battles.

Cavalry has never really disappeared, just less used between the knight and armed cavalry of 1600's.

Dale

 

[Fireb]

On rifles/muskets...there was a lot of evolution...from arqubusiers...to matchlock muskets, to flintlock muskets, including the addition of bayonets and rifled barrels. Early rifles were much more accurate than muskets, but took much longer to load, as they had to be loaded 'manually' unlike musket cartridges, which you could just rip open and pour down the barrel. This is represented in the fact that for a time many skirmisher/light infantry type units used rifles, whilst regular/line infantry used muskets.

On cavalry: their predominance in european armies waned and waxed with the passing of time, weapon technologies and perceptions. Sometimes they were only used for foraging/scouting duties, at other times they made up the most important component in the armies. One thing is certain though: From 500 BC up to 1940 Horses have been key element in almost every european army. Possibly knights could be re-skinned to look like mounted explorers, with moderate offensive capabilities

Obviously some compromise on detail needs to be made for gameplay As it is now it is fine, even if it is not perfect. There are more 'urgent' changes needed, such as naval warfare, diplomacy, civics, etc. Small details can be fine tuned and ironed out later

 

[woodelf]

The new version looks great Dale. I can't wait to get home and play.

 

[lifeaquatic]

Bayonets came before rifleman.

Rifles are guns with rifling in the barrel. The British regular in the 18th century used a smooth bore musket. Therefore your tech tree needs adjusting.

As far as civics rather or not they were a choice in reality, for a playability you don't want all the nations choosing those which they likely will, thus becoming unrealistic.

 

[Dale]

lifeaquatic:

Rifles are not specifically guns with rifling. Some muskets had rifling too, and some rifles are smooth-bore (even today). Take this smooth bore rimfire rifle: http://www.gunshopfinder.com/savage/savageMarkIGSB.asp The Springfield 1855 & 1861 are good examples of rifled muskets.

The English infantry used the Long Land Musket (Brown Bess musket) from 1722 to 1838 as standard issue. It was a .75 calibre muzzle-loader with ramrod and split-bayonet attachment, with seperate gunpowder and shot (84 grains if I remember correctly). They came in different standards with each standard having a different barrel length, but all other features the same. They were sold to Mexico and appeared in their forces past 1850.

So as it stands, the progression of infantry weapons is staying as it is. No changes.

BTW, if you are using Wikipeadia as your source of information don't. It's wrong and contradictory. There's even two pages where one says "all rifled guns are rifles" and then a complete heading on "rifled muskets". I've never held much weight on information from Wikipeadia as it's all done by the public, not official sources. There's some good information there, but I've found the majority of stuff is just plain wrong or not the truth or not the complete story.

Beginning European diplomacy is not changing either. All nations start neutral to each other, otherwise you'd have France taking over Genoa in the first few years every game, and Spain & Portugal wasting its armies on the Arabs over colonising. None of us want Spain & Portugal to stop colonising as it would kill the gameplay.

Civics are still open for discussion, but apart from moving Free Market to macro-economics I fail to see a convincing arguement (on either forum) to change them round heaps.

I'm choosing gameplay over realism. If its reality you want, go play EU2.

Dale

 

[wolfman1234]

haha, that was my favourite game, eu2, but well, now i am playing civ4

I think i have saw you around there.

 

[Patricius]

Hi,

I haven't tried out the mod yet but from what I have read it seems to me that it is easier to conquer the AI neighbors in Europe than colonize the New World, which is exactly opposite from real history.
Could you possibly create a very good (only defensive) unit that can't be built but is only in European home cities. This would cause the wars to be fought out more in the New World, reflecting history.
Also I am not sure if you have already done so, but decrease the Maintenance costs so that New World Cities are less costly and more profitable?

Anyway, the mod sounds really cool and I am going to download once i finish this message.

Patricius

 

[Saltylicious]

There's a mod called "Europa Europa" out which has you play in Europe. There are some religious icons there, maybe you could take a look 'n if you like them ask the guy if you could use some of them? He added more civics too, but I don't know how useful those would be for this scenario.

Here's the thread: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=144971

 

[Aeon221]

#1) Those icons were a direct rip from EU2... I don't think Paradox has noticed, but they really should complain a bit as that was illegal. Hopefully he will send them a note and get that over with. In the mean time, using them is a breach of forum rules...

#2)I'm glad that this thread is no longer being hardcore spammed... makes it easier to follow.

#3) Easiest way to get the ai to move over to the new world would be to increase ship move rates and decrease distance corruption. That proved true in C3, and will most likely prove true in C4.

#4) Any word on flagging units as treasure? If so, you could add in a plantation system using flag generated units (G. Merchant graphic resized would probably be good... not sure if you can resize anymore... bah!) and local resource requirements to convince the ai to move over there.

#5) Is there a VP system? If so, just plop VPLs in various RL colony locations. At worst, the ai will just drop troops. At best, colonies!

#6) With one of my earlier (and failed) modding attempts at this period, I found that (at least in C3) the ai responds positively (in terms of settlements) to required resources necessary for powerful units that only they can see. Humans did too

#7) Is there a way to create 'choke points' in the ocean in order to force meaningful, location control based, naval combat? If so, this would definitely be conducive to large scale naval combat... since the ships would all be in the same general locale.

Thanks for taking up an era I have always loved (and consistenly been unable to mod, mostly due to time concerns). Expect me to ***** about the navies a lot (ask Rhye... I whined til the ships moved _fast_... but everyone seemed to like it ), but to generally love whatever comes out of here!

 

[Aeon221]

Bugs

• Map latitudes do not line up (SERIOUS)
• Andrea Doria was not Doge (refused title), but Admiral (or perhaps Censor).
• Fish (water resources in general) are missing.
• Religions... (Had about four spawn in Amsterdam on turn 3)
• Wonders (replace or remove...)
• Hole w/o culture middle of France
• Placed city name bug
• Bermuda is missing

Countries

• Saxony (covers too many cities)
• Holland (anachronistic in the extreme)
• Turks (again, anachronistic. Use Kingdoms of Morocco and Algeria)
  
• Navarre?
• Grenada?
• Papal States?

There is a slew of other issues which are not technically bugs, but are more anachronisms or misnomers.

Anachronism

• Catapults should be cannon
• Aquaduct

{I'm late for class and will finish filling this out later}

 

[woodelf]

How's this coming Dale? I'm loving EuropaEuropa, but I want to Explore the New World as well.

 

[lifeaquatic]

don't spam hardcore there woodelf

 

[MikeC]

Looking good so far, on the game I'm playing. Noticed that religious missionaries are still the old types (and structures), only with the description saying they spread the new type - Hindu Missionary, spreads Protestantism.

Although I did find it funny when the Tech Advisor recommended researching Syphallus, for Growth...

 

[lifeaquatic]

any new developments?

 

[Dale]

The Mod is still coming along slowely. It's been a very busy two weeks for me IRL.

Dale

 

[woodelf]

Damn, I hate when RL gets in the way of mod developement.

Keep plugging away Dale, it sounds like it's worth waiting for.

 

[lifeaquatic]

another idea, try replacing the graphics of the cavalry with those of the cossack, a much better fit for european nations. The regular cavalry graphics are very stupid for any nation except the USA. What idiot at firaxis made the decision to put that in the game?

 

[Dale]

Beta3 is on the way soon!

Lots of updates, and lots of stuff finalised. Stay tuned.

In the meantime, here's the full parade of nations......

*from left --> right, top --> bottom*

England, France, Spain, Muslim, Holland, Maya, Saxony, Genoa, Portugal, Aztec, Scotland, Natives.

 

[Silica_Pathways]

Mm, i see one new civ - natives. I hope they'll also be playable... or are those just barbarians with different flag ?