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SCENARIO: High Middle Ages
- Thread starter Jon Shafer
- Start date
DP
-but I will take this oppertunity to say that I misread your post on the kingdom of italy, and thought you sai dit was int he south- that said, i still think the papal states should eb seperate, and if Byzantine territory isnt in south italy, it sould be the kingdom af naples, or sicilly
-but I will take this oppertunity to say that I misread your post on the kingdom of italy, and thought you sai dit was int he south- that said, i still think the papal states should eb seperate, and if Byzantine territory isnt in south italy, it sould be the kingdom af naples, or sicilly
Jon Shafer
Civilization 5 Designer
Oh posh, they weren't very important at all.
My connection was giving me problems, and when I tried to post the first time I had Byzantium and Naples, but when I repasted they didn't appear...
Jon Shafer
Civilization 5 Designer
I was thinking about having a Papal States civ, but I honestly can't see a reason to.
The biggest impact of the papacy was through religious affairs, rather than political ones. With the territory they controlled, they would only have 1 city, and honestly, they'd be little more than another splotch of color on the map without being able to somehow fit them into the Civ 3 game engine...
Jon Shafer
Civilization 5 Designer
Trieste I'll either give to Venice or the HRE. There is much of the Dalmatian coast that I will definitely give to Venice though.
Mongoloid Cow
Great Khan
IIRC it was far too early for Prussia, and the Teutonic Order would only have like one or two cities. The Teutonic Order could probably be better represented through wonders or units, or both.
Jon Shafer
Civilization 5 Designer
The Teutonic Order wasn't even established in the Holy Land until the late 12th century. Though including the military religious orders is something I definitely plan on doing in one way or another (besides the Crusader States civ).
Originally posted by Trip
I was thinking about having a Papal States civ, but I honestly can't see a reason to.
actually, at their smallest they would have like 3 cities- two of then quitw important- ome itself, and Bologna, the first city in non-Byzantine Europe to have a university after the collaps of the collapse of the Roman empire in on itself...
Looking at a map of Europe ca. 1130 (when, between the Crusader states and the Kingdom of Georgia, the Christian presence in the east reached its post-Manzikert high point) the following political entities existed (roughoy grouped geographically):
England (ecluding, Ireland, Scotland, Wales, and including Burgundy and Normandy)
France (excluding the above)
Kingdoms of Norway (including a slice of the eat coast of Scotland), Denamrk, and Sweden (all separate)
Kingdoms of Leon & Castile, and Aragon & Navarre; the County of Provence-Barcelone (separated by a strip of coastal France); the Murabit Emriate (Southern Spain & Portugal and Moroccco).
The German Empire / HRE.
Kingdoms of Hungary; Poland; Principality of Russia; Volga Bulgars and Cumans to their east.
Byzantine Empire minus the breakaway Pruincipality of Serbia.
The Zirid Emirates (Tunisian Coast, bordering the Murabits).
The Fatimid Caliphate in Egypt.
PISA NOT GENOA controlling Corsica and Sardinia; Venice perhaps controlling Trieste (a VERY minor city at best ...)
Roger the Norman's Kingdom of Sicily controlling Sicily and southern Italy.
The Kingdom of Georgia, at its high point, surrounded by Alans in the north, and the Seljuk Sultanate of Hamadan to the south (the latter controlluing central Anatolia); to the east of the Seljuk Sultanate of Hamadan was the Seljuk Sultanate of Merv, stretching from the eastern shores of the Aral Sea to the southeastern shore of the Caspian.
... Plus of course the Crusader states and the Assassins of Alamut.
I hope that helps some
-- let me know if a different year and/or particular geopolitial presence is desired and I'll see what I can come up with.
Best,
Oz
England (ecluding, Ireland, Scotland, Wales, and including Burgundy and Normandy)
France (excluding the above)
Kingdoms of Norway (including a slice of the eat coast of Scotland), Denamrk, and Sweden (all separate)
Kingdoms of Leon & Castile, and Aragon & Navarre; the County of Provence-Barcelone (separated by a strip of coastal France); the Murabit Emriate (Southern Spain & Portugal and Moroccco).
The German Empire / HRE.
Kingdoms of Hungary; Poland; Principality of Russia; Volga Bulgars and Cumans to their east.
Byzantine Empire minus the breakaway Pruincipality of Serbia.
The Zirid Emirates (Tunisian Coast, bordering the Murabits).
The Fatimid Caliphate in Egypt.
PISA NOT GENOA controlling Corsica and Sardinia; Venice perhaps controlling Trieste (a VERY minor city at best ...)
Roger the Norman's Kingdom of Sicily controlling Sicily and southern Italy.
The Kingdom of Georgia, at its high point, surrounded by Alans in the north, and the Seljuk Sultanate of Hamadan to the south (the latter controlluing central Anatolia); to the east of the Seljuk Sultanate of Hamadan was the Seljuk Sultanate of Merv, stretching from the eastern shores of the Aral Sea to the southeastern shore of the Caspian.
... Plus of course the Crusader states and the Assassins of Alamut.
I hope that helps some
-- let me know if a different year and/or particular geopolitial presence is desired and I'll see what I can come up with.Best,
Oz
Jon Shafer
Civilization 5 Designer
One of the reasons I wanted to combine the papacy and the Kingdom of Italy was because the HRE and northern Italy/the papacy were very often at odds with each other. The Ghibellines in northern Italy gave the Holy Roman Emperors a lot of trouble, as did the papacy. I think combining the two would help represent this relationship better.
Don't forget that northern Italy also had Guelphs (pro-papacy) as well, and that this split with the Ghibellines led to bloody civil war, Dante's exile from Florence, etc.
-Oz
Jon Shafer
Civilization 5 Designer
DP.
Jon Shafer
Civilization 5 Designer
Errr, yeah, I meant Guelfs, not Ghibellines...
Let me try to go back and fix what I said...
For the most part, the nobles in northern Italy were anti-emperor, trying to undermine the HRE's situation as best as possible in order to get more independence. I think that the combination of northern Italy and the Papacy will help represent the two trying to weaken the HRE most of the time (though not all the time).
I'm going to be modelling Germany as being under weak HRE control and considering that northern Italy was under even less control from the HRE the combination with a hostile papacy is the best way I can think of modelling the similar goals of the two groups while keeping them a real threat in a game engine like Civ 3.
Let me try to go back and fix what I said...
For the most part, the nobles in northern Italy were anti-emperor, trying to undermine the HRE's situation as best as possible in order to get more independence. I think that the combination of northern Italy and the Papacy will help represent the two trying to weaken the HRE most of the time (though not all the time).
I'm going to be modelling Germany as being under weak HRE control and considering that northern Italy was under even less control from the HRE the combination with a hostile papacy is the best way I can think of modelling the similar goals of the two groups while keeping them a real threat in a game engine like Civ 3.
okay, i agree on the itallian state thing then
- that said, have you ever thought of reprtesetning the HRE as several civs linked together- by inter swiching allinces- or better, yet to represetn the fueding that took place, only aq few interconnected MPPs, but with all of them sharing one to a sort of common "capitol state"?
a bit confusing how I explained it I htink, so if you need any clarifying, please say so, and I will try
*edited- for some reason I had "al" at the bottom of the post- weird, considering 'al" has nothing to do with me, or the post...
- that said, have you ever thought of reprtesetning the HRE as several civs linked together- by inter swiching allinces- or better, yet to represetn the fueding that took place, only aq few interconnected MPPs, but with all of them sharing one to a sort of common "capitol state"?
a bit confusing how I explained it I htink, so if you need any clarifying, please say so, and I will try
*edited- for some reason I had "al" at the bottom of the post- weird, considering 'al" has nothing to do with me, or the post...
Jon Shafer
Civilization 5 Designer
The problem is that the only way to represent the HRE aside from a large civ is to have them as small civs that are all part of a game-long alliance. Now personally, I don't think that's the best way to represent the HRE. Keep in mind, there was still some power held by the HRE, and figures like Frederick Barbarossa are still to come during the course of the scenario.
I MAY represent the HRE as seperate states, but there's really no good way to represent its relative strength near the beginning and decentralization over time. If only there were events...
I MAY represent the HRE as seperate states, but there's really no good way to represent its relative strength near the beginning and decentralization over time. If only there were events...
personally, I liek the idea of seperate states i think part of the great romantiscism that goes along with the middle ages is the ide aof little city-state type holdings striving for thier own survival out in the big cold, crule world- not that of massive nations, who are, all in all, extrodinarlliy crappy when you you compare thier real stats to their land size...
Jon Shafer
Civilization 5 Designer
The game for small states is EU2, not Civ. 
If you're playing, say, France, then it would be a piece of cake to suck up the entire HRE. I want to keep the permanent alliances in this game to a minimum.
If you're playing, say, France, then it would be a piece of cake to suck up the entire HRE. I want to keep the permanent alliances in this game to a minimum.
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