[SCENARIO] World War I

[isenchine]

There is a problem indeed but I don't know what I could do about it. It is of course not coded in Python. It might be that the order of teams is altered (although it doesn't look like that). I saw nothing special in the dll code. I've never played BtS with GAMEOPTION_NO_CHANGING_WAR_PEACE. And I like vassals.

So they are good candidates not to be included!

For me, the game is determinist enough. If I'm neutral and decide to have a war after all, I'm not against that. Playing Germany, I declared war on the Netherlands and on Denmark. Plausible.

And at the Armistice, I want to be able to make peace if it suits me.

 

[isenchine]

Version 7 uploaded to the database.

Light update but I found out what was the problem. Even if it doesn't look like, when you pass through the menu Customize Scenario, the Teams are redistributed.

WWI Python events: changed the Team numbers to be dynamically fetched to enable the use of Customized Scenario changes via the Menu. Good job but it does not work: redistributed Teams on map instead in a more sorted way: now it works!

Alignment messages will not appear anymore when they reach 420 or -420.

Reduced the scale of the Mine Tender to fScale 0.7.

Renamed Basic Light Artillery to just Light Artillery.

That's it for today!

 

[Tigranes]

Again huge thanks for solving this puzzle. If I ever run PBEM I must be able to use always war or peace option, so this is great!

Now we came to the most tedious but important task: historical proportionality of forces based on the 1914 order of battles. In the trenches does an excellent job there, but that is simply overkill. It is impossible to effectively manage all those hundreds of units. But it would be nice to have at least some "Corps" level representation of actual army strength (1 Infantry unit for every Army Corps), and proportional representation of Navies.

 

[isenchine]

The scenario looks balanced to me as it is.

I am, personally, not interested in this kind of review, but if you want to make a concrete proposal and point me to obvious discrepancies, I'm all ears.

 

[isenchine]

Not much to do so I reviewed/compared 3 maps/scenarios/mods on WWI:

- this one, obviously
- Blood and Iron by snafusmith, map/scenario Europe Spring 1914 created by noblemperor
- TTT - In The Trenches by dacubz145. Note: a recent update of the mod was released, these are figures from the original release of 28th July 2014.

Attached is an Excel 2003 file WWI.xls with a Tab 'Comparison'.

It compares the maps, cities, units, civs. Note that in this mod Americas are not shown. The Player USA is maintained with Python, adding landing troops in Europe as at the entrance of USA into war.

Units listed are only those at the start of the scenarios, more units are available in the 3 mods.

Per countries, you will see the total number of Land Army units or Naval units.

You have to be careful with the comparison with percentages of forces taken from Wikipedia. One example: out of a total force 1914-1918 of British troops of 8,200,000, the British army was only 733,000 at the start of the war. A massive conscription effort during the war, including forces from all over the Empire.

So, it looks like in this mod (I will only comment this mod), the Ottomans are over represented (a bit the Russians). But this is a game and the map is huge for them, so the efficiency is absent from the start. I could lower the number of Ottomans troops but I don't think that they are doing too good in this scenario anyway! I remember adding one infantry unit in each city which was defenseless (for everybody) - Ottomans have 20 cities. Furthermore, British fighting Ottomans are regularly supplied with some fresh troops with Python.

Germany, Italy are under represented. Italy has time to build up a force though.

The 2 other mods have impressive number of naval units and a big ocean to cross. This mod is not so much about navy, obviously.

In the end, I'm not sure that it will advance me much in changing anything here but I love doing useless things like this!...

 

[isenchine]

See previous post, first extract: the Map

Spoiler :

Jon Shafer Blood and Iron In the Trenches

Map: width 100 128 250
Map: height 73 80 80
Map: plots 7,300 10,240 20,000

PlotType=0 Peak 186 289 300
PlotType=1 Hills 1,116 1,024 1,418
PlotType=2 Land 3,578 4,198 6,750
Sub-total: "Domination" plots 4,880 5,511 8,468
PlotType=3 Ocean 2,420 4,729 11,532
Total 7,300 10,240 20,000
% of water 33.2% 46.2% 57.7%

 

[isenchine]

Part II: Cities

Note: this mod doesn't have the Americas on its map.
in B&I and ITT, Canada is part of Great-Britain.

Spoiler :

Cities Jon Shafer Blood and Iron In the Trenches
Germany 15 14 17
Austria-Hungary 19 12 21
Ottomans 20 6 23
Russia 27 18 66
France 18 21 25
Great-Britain 13 30 62
Italy 11 13 18
USA 0 39 38
Serbia 3 3 3
Bulgaria 3 3 4
Romania 4 3 4
Belgium 1 2 2
Spain 11 9 18
Sweden 8 5 9
Greece 5 7 7
Denmark 2 1 5
Netherlands 1 1 3
Portugal 3 3 7
Norway - 6 5
Mexico - 6 7
Switzerland - - 3
Albania - - 2
Montenegro - - 1
Cuba - - 3
164 202 353
Land/Hills plots divided by Cities 28.6 25.9 23.1

 

[isenchine]

Part III: Units

Spoiler :

Unit Types Jon Shafer Blood and Iron In the Trenches
Infantry 351 337 691
Machine Gun 2 202
Cavalry (incl. Cossacks) 18 36 19
Artillery 20 63
Heavy Artillery 1
Sub-total: Land Army 392 373 975

Transport / Troopship 5 23 42
Gun Boat 49
Destroyer 47 371 551
Pre-Dreadnought 79 161
Dreadnought / Battleship 15 74 81
Armored Cruiser 187 140
Battle Cruiser 17 15
Light Cruiser 58
Protected Cruiser 127
Submarine 122 254
Torpedo Boat 79 253
Mine Tender 23
Sea Plane Tender 5
Sub-total: Naval Units 67 980 1,731

Air Units: Airship, Balloon, Farman MF.7, RAF B.E.2, Rumpler Taube 0 11 5
Civilians: Settler, Worker 55 1 113
Total Units 514 1,365 2,824
% Land Army per Land/Hills plots 8.4% 7.1% 11.9%
% Naval Units per Sea plots 2.8% 20.7% 15.0%

In the file, you will find the number for each country of all units, land units and naval units.

That's all, folks!

 

[isenchine]

Version 8 uploaded to the database.

Python code changed for Revolutions and particularly Rebels spawning. Rebels will no longer spawn in a city without a fight (=> option Complete Kills disabled againg). Also quicker to proceed.

Added a surprise unit!

 

[Tigranes]

Great to see update! A little disappointing to see no units added/rearranged. At least British expeditionary force, naval minefield (multiple mines on same plot) around key British, German, French and Russian port cities. Cruisers, since we have them now. Why compare with other mods when one can compare with RL and come up with some scale to represent August 1914 situation?

 

[isenchine]

Naval mine field is an idea but then I would have to buff every fleet... which comes to the same effect... I'll think of it.

I don't have data of available forces in August 1914. There was a guy who proposed a file in 'Blood & Iron' thread long ago but the file is not available for download any more. Both the authors of the scenarios of 'Blood & Iron' and 'In the Trenches' claim they made armies in proportion with real data. That's why I started the comparison. Of course, these two data do not match.

I also did it to allow people to choose freely one mod or another (excluding the art style which is subjective). I don't have a sense of competition between mods...

 

[Tigranes]

Please, don't get me wrong -- I do not expect every scenario to represent every single unit existed in RL. My main concern is relative strength of belligerents. And hey, let's keep it simple. There are many Aug 1914 order of battles around the net but this forum has everything in the most general terms possible, so we could use it, at least for navies. We can also use Blood and Iron stats, they are based on real life data, we would just need to scale them down.

As always when you want to scale something pick the highest number and smallest and see on what factor can you raughly divide it on for ALL the countries in order to represent that strength with reasonable number of units.

British Fleet (1914)
•Battleships (Dreadnoughts): 24
•Battleships (pre-Dreadnoughts): 38
•Battlecruisers: 10
•Cruisers (Armoured cruisers + Protected cruisers): 47
•Light cruisers: 61
•Destroyers: 225
•Submarines: 75

Russian Fleet (1914)
•Battleships (Dreadnoughts): 2
•Battleships (pre-Dreadnoughts): 11
•Cruisers (Armoured cruisers + Protected cruisers): 8
•Light cruisers: 5
•Destroyers: 106
•Submarines: 36

During World War I, a large number of pre-dreadnoughts remained in service. The advances in machinery and armament meant that a pre-dreadnought was not necessarily the equal of even a modern armoured cruiser, and was totally outclassed by a modern dreadnought battleship or battlecruiser. Nevertheless, the pre-dreadnought played a major role in the War.

Giving Russia 1 Dreadnought unit means that UK Dreadnoughts+Battlecruiser number (34) should be represented with 17 units. Not all of them been active on our map, so 15 sounds like a good number. Germany had 19 Dreadnoughts+Battlecruisers, so 9 could be High Seas Fleet strength. Cruisers can be combined with pre-Dreadnoughts and Light Cruisers with destroyers. Factor of 8 can be applied for DDs numbers, which leaves 35 DD for British, or 30 for the map. And so on...

I also fail to see why adding mines requires buffing fleets. The very purpose of mines is that enemy ships do not attack them. Otherwise, if you ever played Europe wars with human players, British park their entire fleet in Baltic Sea and bombard Germany to death. Superiority in numbers and coast terrain allows them to enjoy advantage they could not enjoy in real life. Mines make situation a little more realistic

This reminds me.... Shallow waters make Dreadnoughts more vulnerable. I suggest replacing Coast +10% defence bonus with -10% for capital ships, while small craft mines/tenders/submarines/destroyers enjoy the old +10% bonus.

 

[isenchine]

Please, don't get me wrong -- I do not expect every scenario to represent every single unit existed in RL. My main concern is relative strength of belligerents. And hey, let's keep it simple. There are many Aug 1914 order of battles around the net but this forum has everything in the most general terms possible, so we could use it, at least for navies. We can also use Blood and Iron stats, they are based on real life data, we would just need to scale them down.

Of course! Thanks a lot for the link, I will use it. I don't believe that B&I is better scaled than ITT though.

During World War I, a large number of pre-dreadnoughts remained in service. The advances in machinery and armament meant that a pre-dreadnought was not necessarily the equal of even a modern armoured cruiser, and was totally outclassed by a modern dreadnought battleship or battlecruiser. Nevertheless, the pre-dreadnought played a major role in the War.

So, you are requesting a Pre-Dreadnought unit, I thought you'd never ask

I read that German submarines were indeed attacking those old Pre-Dreadnoughts but dared not against modern battleships.

I also fail to see why adding mines requires buffing fleets. The very purpose of mines is that enemy ships do not attack them. Otherwise, if you ever played Europe wars with human players, British park their entire fleet in Baltic Sea and bombard Germany to death. Superiority in numbers and coast terrain allows them to enjoy advantage they could not enjoy in real life. Mines make situation a little more realistic.

You are not saying that naval mines should never be attacked, are you? Do you agree with a mine strength 8 or should it be more? From a game perspective, it is difficult to represent their role accurately.

This reminds me.... Shallow waters make Dreadnoughts more vulnerable. I suggest replacing Coast +10% defence bonus with -10% for capital ships, while small craft mines/tenders/submarines/destroyers enjoy the old +10% bonus.

That's a good one.

To be followed when I will have a bit more quiet time in front of me (RL stuff now )

 

[Tigranes]

So, you are requesting a Pre-Dreadnought unit, I thought you'd never ask

I read that German submarines were indeed attacking those old Pre-Dreadnoughts but dared not against modern battleships.



You are not saying that naval mines should never be attacked, are you? Do you agree with a mine strength 8 or should it be more? From a game perspective, it is difficult to represent their role accurately.



That's a good one.

To be followed when I will have a bit more quiet time in front of me (RL stuff now )

Sorry about RL You made good progress, keep it up!

No, no new units. Just count them as cruisers when applying the scale factor. They did affect war in some way at least.

Mines with strength 8 are ok, if they are many on the same plot (2-3). Say you are evil German Battleship bound to shell London (never happened). Turn one -- you run into mine, kill it, take damage and still cannot get to to London. Turn 2, Turn 3, and by that time you are either red or British DD can sink you arriving from far away to save capital.

 

[isenchine]

Thank you, nothing dramatic in RL, just occupying time.

Your scenario of a naval invasion sounds good to me!

 

[isenchine]

Version 9 uploaded to the Database. Not save game compatible, finish your game first! Better replace completely the mod's folder to avoid having unwanted files left.

Changelog:

Added Pre-Dreadnought unit.
Pre-Dreadnought, Dreadnought, Battleship: TerrainAttacks & TerrainDefenses: -20%

Introduced a limit of units
(formula: iNumUnitsAllowed = ((3 * iNumCities) + iPop))

Palaces re-enabled at Industrialism.

Added to the map file:
### Option=GAMEOPTION_NO_VASSAL_STATES ### to make it easier to "toggle on" by just deleting the "###" before and after the code.
Otherwise, Vassal trading is now only enabled at Industrialism, not at game start anymore.

Changed the name of St. Petersburg to Petrograd (St. Petersburg sounded too German to Russians...).

Added 17 Airships, 1 per Capital city.
Added 70 Naval Mines, 5 Mine Tenders, 14 Submarines, 7 Destroyers, 8 Pre-dreadnoughts, 5 Cruisers, suppressed 11 Dreadnoughts.
Reorganised slightly the land armies taking into consideration the armies at start of war, the number of cities and the necessary balance of the mod.

Number of turns extended to 301 (1 September 1939, then you will have to switch to a WWII mod!).

Reviewed the Python file, always and always... Seems the mod is a bit faster now.

Remark: naval mines (with hidden nationality) are a big training field for all ships (they will hurt anyone passing by, even friendly units of course).

 

[Tigranes]

Looks great! Time to start the war that will start all the wars!

Are you sure you cannot get a clean copy of BTS and join PBEM game to protect Belgium? Your country needs you!

 

[isenchine]

Excellent!

In the meantime, I did make a consolidation of all the art used in my private mod, so now I should be able to re-install a clean copy of BtS on my internet computer. I'm not playing on it but I guess PBEM should not be too taxing.

Still I know nothing of PBEM...

Shoot!

PS/Edit: Civ4 Bts re-installed successfully.

 

[Tigranes]

Please try to run this file (initial situation). It is very critical that you succeed.

 

[ashley26ph2003]

Does this edited follows events?