Science Mod

Hydromancerx · Apr 1, 2010

You still have to take stuff back to the lab to test, study and even preserve.

Anyways I finished the mod and hopefully Afforess will add it to the next update.

Arakhor · Apr 1, 2010

Archaeology and anthropology are studied by pretty much the same people (anthropology is also about human culture and society). Only a specialist would quibble about the differences.

Hydromancerx · Apr 1, 2010

Arakhor said:
Archaeology and anthropology are studied by pretty much the same people (anthropology is also about human culture and society). Only a specialist would quibble about the differences.

I guess Soup is a specialist.

soup567 said:
Your other ideas sound good. Anthropology is different from archaeology though. Anthropology is more or less the study of the human body, and human evolution. Archaeology is more or less the study of human settlements, and ancient buildings and pottery and such. So it wouldn't matter if you added both.

civ_king · Apr 1, 2010

I'd tone down the bonuses a little, too many +5%s, go for the 1-2% range otherwise too much science

Hydromancerx · Apr 1, 2010

Really? Cause most of these are below the sconce bonus of even a library. And since many are linked to techs they do not kick in until later in the game. Then there are resource linked ones in which you might never get the full bonus if you don't gain access to that resource.

If its too much I can always have Afforess tone it down in the update after next.

civ_king · Apr 1, 2010

Hydromancerx said:
Really? Cause most of these are below the sconce bonus of even a library. And since many are linked to techs they do not kick in until later in the game. Then there are resource linked ones in which you might never get the full bonus if you don't gain access to that resource.

If its too much I can always have Afforess tone it down in the update after next.

the resource ones could do with being toned down

Hydromancerx · Apr 1, 2010

I am fine with that. But I already sent it to Afforess. Who knows if he already tweaked it already. He seems to tweak many of the mods that get included in AND to better fit anyways.

EDIT: I PMed Afforess asking what he wanted to do (either me or him tweaking it). I just want to make sure it gets into the next AND update.

Killtech · Apr 22, 2010

you should definitively change most of the bonuses from a percental to a static gain in science. i was just summing together all the numbers and... huh that's quite a lot. it makes even more sense by the way.

you have to consider that the AI will not make much effort in building these buildings, but the player certainly will. thus i'd suggest a moderate +1 :science:

per building so these buildings don't make it too easy for the player to out-tech every AI opponent.

i really like to use your mods as i too love infinitively upgrading my cities with lots of buildings. though as it is now it just give me an even greater edge over the AI. the percental bonus would be just too significant in my larger cities and the building cost isn't such a problem for my economy at that stage of the game.

Hydromancerx · Apr 26, 2010

I am making the following changes to the changes that Afforess added.

Here is the altered version ...

Changes in Red are by Afforess
Changes in Blue are by Hydro
Changes in Purple are changes to Afforess's changes by Hydro

Science Mod

Spoiler :

Note there are no purple changes.

xartah · Apr 27, 2010

Anyone else find it weird that paleontology and anthropology labs provide more science than physics, biology, chemistry and mathematics? They're both much smaller fields than the big four and don't really contribute to technological advancement. Why them rather than sociology or psychology?

Dancing Hoskuld · Apr 28, 2010

xartah said:
Anyone else find it weird that paleontology and anthropology labs provide more science than physics, biology, chemistry and mathematics? They're both much smaller fields than the big four and don't really contribute to technological advancement. Why them rather than sociology or psychology?

No. Technological advancement is not all there is to the world. I would suggest that the ideas behind the UN and "crimes against humanity" have major effects on society but they are not part of your big four. As to why paleontology and anthropology rather than sociology or psychology someone needs to make a choice for these so called "soft" sciences. By "soft" I mean sciences where performing experiments to prove an hypothysis is not possible which until receintly included Astronomy and Astrophysics. (I also question the idea that mathematics is a "real" science :mischief:

. My degree is in pure mathematics and my work for the last ten years or so has involved translating mathematical theories into computer processes.)

xartah · Apr 28, 2010

Dancing Hoskuld said:
No. Technological advancement is not all there is to the world. I would suggest that the ideas behind the UN and "crimes against humanity" have major effects on society but they are not part of your big four. As to why paleontology and anthropology rather than sociology or psychology someone needs to make a choice for these so called "soft" sciences. By "soft" I mean sciences where performing experiments to prove an hypothysis is not possible which until receintly included Astronomy and Astrophysics. (I also question the idea that mathematics is a "real" science . My degree is in pure mathematics and my work for the last ten years or so has involved translating mathematical theories into computer processes.)

When I was referring to technological advancement I meant learning new technologies in civ, not the real world. There are many techs that are based on social sciences and humanities rather than natural sciences but I just feel they would be better represented by fields such as philosophy, law, economy, sociology or psychology. I've also gotten the impression that they are quite small fields in regards to researchers and students.

Dancing Hoskuld · Apr 28, 2010

xartah said:
When I was referring to technological advancement I meant learning new technologies in civ, not the real world. There are many techs that are based on social sciences and humanities rather than natural sciences but I just feel they would be better represented by fields such as philosophy, law, economy, sociology or psychology. I've also gotten the impression that they are quite small fields in regards to researchers and students.

Yes I understood exactly what you meant. And the size of the field does not necessarily relate to the effect of the result. In the end it is up to the modder what goes in, and if we strongly disagree then we should make our own mods

Hydromancerx · Apr 28, 2010

Dancing Hoskuld said:
and if we strongly disagree then we should make our own mods

Exactly why I began to mod myself.

Killtech · Apr 30, 2010

are the current stats the final word or do you plan to tweak them further?

i ask because i have the problem that in snail games i have experienced an overflow in commerce that resulted in a far too fast researching. and this was without any additional building packs in AND 1.72. this unbalance is quite game breaking. after all i don't play on snail speed to rush trough techs like that (needed less(!) than 10 turns in average for new techs to develop on snail+deity). and since the AI was no match in i developed every tech by my own. i fear that adding this building mod into my game might worsen the situation.

the truth is that your buildings add quite a lot of extra :science:

without any trade-off. if you sum all up they 'just' add +65 :science:

and additionally +21% :science:

... how much this all will boost research in a well developed town (high base :commerce:

yield and quite some modifiers on raw :commerce:

and to top things up the :science:

modifiers (be aware that if you apply two different modifiers after each other they do not add up but multiply!!)). i spare the exact calculation but i estimate that this all will decrease the time i need to discover new techs in later game stages by 50% and it can end with first space flight at about 1200 AD.

thus i urge you to make your mod work properly. if you need any ideas on how to balance this and someone to test it in game i can provide my assistance.

Hydromancerx · Apr 30, 2010

I have been tweaking things as I have been testing HAND. So yes.

Killtech · Apr 30, 2010

so basically there are two options:

1st. either you increase the tech cost for any tech that comes after your buildings are available by up to 100%. the techs short after become 20% more expensive. more advanced tech go 40% in cost and so on up to 100% at the point where you can assume that a player will have build all the buildings.

2nd. alternative is to focus on buildings and reduce their boni to an adequate level. so first all your science buildings should not give a bonus greater than +20 static and +10% more science (which is still huge!!). moreover - since the university is a prerequisite - you should modify them: they can't just unlock so many good stuff without having to pay for it. so i think they should cause +20% in maintenance. furthermore i'd consider either lowering down the +25% science modifier or make universities have a similar build-prerequisite like cathedrals (each require 2 temples). something like a collage that upgrades to university and gives a +10% science bonus could do as the preliminary building.
furthermore you should consider going through all science buildings in AND and lower their boni accordingly. for example you could cut the bonus form the library down to +10% but maybe add +2 science instead so it's more useful in the early game but the bonus is not so horrific in the later ages (btw you could make the elder council upgrade to library instead of making it obsolete)

Hydromancerx · Apr 30, 2010

Well the first tweaks I put in place are + :science:

for general and tech enabled. However resource bonuses use % :science:

As for RoM and AND science buildings tweaks, I might do that or even give my existing science buildings a tweak.

I would like to do some other stuff too with another mod to help balance things out, however I have been too busy to make a new thread for it yet.

Killtech · May 1, 2010

sounds good. since you are willing to do the balancing i just decided to forward all related issues to you. and here's the first one:

the 'elder council' obsoletes too early at writing tech. i guess this was ment to prevent having the 'library' and the council build in same city. good intention, bad realization. better solution is to make the elder council upgrade to the library and let it expire later on at mathematics or some other post-writing tech.

the 'school of scribes' bonus is problematic. it gives +15% science. but when i look through the AIs cities i barely see a size larger than 2 - so i estimate that none of them would get even a single science bonus from a library right now. +3 or +4 science is much more adequate and would help fastening up research in the very early game stage (especially for AI) without being overpowered in later times (the +15% will result in more then 15 science in developed cities of industrial age!).

so my suggestion is:
School of Scribes: +3 :science:

, +1

with Alphabet, 25% faster production with Elder Council, replaces Elder Council

same problem with library. however due to realism one can consider an additional mild percent modifier for library:
Library: +5 :science:

, +5%

with Philosophy, 25% faster production with School of Scribes, replaces School of Scribes

i'll post more here when i progress in my snail game.

and make sure this changes make it into AND when they are tested and found to be adequate because they are balancing changes! i think you could spare Afforess quite some work if you start balancing the buildings for him.

EDIT: i mixed up library and school of scribes at one point. fixed that in my post.

Science Mod

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C2C Modder

Arakhor

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civ_king

Deus Caritas Est

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C2C Modder

Killtech

Discutator

Hydromancerx

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xartah

Chieftain

Dancing Hoskuld

Deity

xartah

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Hydromancerx

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