Science vs Religion - The Ultimate Battle?

[The Art of War]

Originally posted by CurtSibling


Just because some dubious man in a dress declares you a sinner
Means nothing, he probably has not mentioned that most
Priests are porno-freaks who abuse kids, harsh but true.

False. I think the correct number of "priests [who] are porno-freaks who abuse kids" is more like .8% of the Catholic Clergy, I believe.

 

[Hitro]

Originally posted by The Art of War
False. I think the correct number of "priests [who] are porno-freaks who abuse kids" is more like .8% of the Catholic Clergy, I believe.

Wow! So they have exact statistics about that? Where do they get them from? Does every priest have to give a weekly report about the number of children he has abused?

Btw, since when is being a 'porno-freak' (whatever that is) connected with being a child molester?

 

[CurtSibling]

Originally posted by The Art of War


False. I think the correct number of "priests [who] are porno-freaks who abuse kids" is more like .8% of the Catholic Clergy, I believe.

Such secterian trivia is irrelevant to me, Art of War.

I see all religion as the same thing...

 

[CurtSibling]

Originally posted by Hitro

Wow! So they have exact statistics about that? Where do they get them from? Does every priest have to give a weekly report about the number of children he has abused?

Btw, since when is being a 'porno-freak' (whatever that is) connected with being a child molester?

I didn't say it was.

I just said it is something connected with most priests.
Although I am not making out this is the case with all porn freaks.
And I was speaking metaphorically anyway.

Maybe you should read the part about freeing your mind
instead of focusing of the porn/priest part of the post,

Very disturbing that most people spot the porn before the
'free your mind' part....

 

[CurtSibling]

Originally posted by allan2

"Such thinking is caused by religion...remove it from your mind."

Religion is hardly the sole source of violent impulses. NATURE is violent--and I don't see wolves (who kill each other as well as their prey) bowing before a god. What you mean is that religion has sometimes been CHANNELED by manipulative people to convince them to do violence. But then again, so have other things. Did Pol Pot or Josef Stalin channel religion into violence?

Allan2, I was referring to the cringing fear most people like
Yourself have when faced with a moral dilemma.

Perhaps you are blinded by what you see as your high-minded
Mission to prove religion is beyond all criticism.

If so, your mission is doomed on the launch pad.

It is sad to see someone who is so chained by his own perception
That he is scared to move through fear of some imagined divine
Retribution or moral decay.

In a way I pity the kind of person you are.

But also you could free yourself from oppression.

Y'see, religion breeds on weakness and fear.
I know you have fear, deep down. Most people do,
A religious person may have the outward image of confidence,
But I suspect under the surface lurks, self doubt, depression and
A lack of true purpose and belonging.

Even though I am what religious types would ignorantly regard a
heathen, I have none of these personality flaws, and have a
successful life, I have never been held back by this ludicrous
moral code, or pitiful Fear of some non-existent god.

Such balderdash was programmed into you as a child, perhaps an act of arrested development by your parents?
I will not attempt to profile, as only you know your mind.

Nonetheless, I can see you are an intelligent man, Allan2,
And I have high regard for your well-crafted words.

It's a pity your development as an individual is hamstrung by
Your deep-rooted guilt and religious entrapment.
You could achieve so much more without such emotional baggage.

I hope one day you can break free and find real confidence.

Respect.

 

[The Art of War]

You have no fear? Is this humanly possible?

I don't really see the point in your continuous posts about "freeing yourself." It seems you really like to write big words and nice sentences more than anything.

What do you find to fulfill yourself, CurtSibling?

I find that religion, Christianity for me, really helps me in my day to day life. There are many ways, especially when dealing with people in general.

I don't know if religion breeds on fear or not. I haven't a fear because of religion. I woud die for my religion, as many others have in the past. My main argument for yours and others' statements about not believing in God is that you ARE afraid. Afraid of going to hell. I'm sure it's ALOT easier not having to worry about that, not having to worry about something that you did that you regret. 'Heck, man, I robbed that guy. I'm glad I don't believe in God. Man, its nice to have to worry about hell.' seems like the easy way out to me.

(This is the passive-aggressive part of my rant)

I don't think you know Allan2 any more than I do. For being a person who "frees himself" and let's others do the same, you sure like to tell people who they are. Once again, you just like to spurt out big sentences. Do it somewhere else. I'll make a thread if you like.

PS: DOn't give me that BS about how I'm a weak minded person or some other crap. I think I am a stronger minded person because of religion, and I haven't the time for your nonsense.

PPS: Have you ever read a significant portion of the Bible or any other Holy Book? If so, excellent. If not, don't preach to me about something you know nothing about. *mutters: and they call us Christians hypocrites*

 

[CurtSibling]

Originally posted by The Art of War
You have no fear? Is this humanly possible?

I don't really see the point in your continuous posts about "freeing yourself." It seems you really like to write big words and nice sentences more than anything.

What do you find to fulfill yourself, CurtSibling?

If you can't see the point in being free, you don't deserve to be.

Obviously, you are not fulfilled, The Art of War.
Perhaps you should call yourself "The art of Exasperation".

I do not profess, to know Allan2, but I have read many of his
Posts in the past, and despite your rantings, I do have respect
For his intelligent prose.

I like to spurt out big sentences?
Maybe if you read them you might benefit a little...
It is unfortunate that you are offended by the fact that I can
speak English properly. You seem to have no problem either,
It doesn't bother me.

Yes, I have read your book, as part of my rejection of your particular
Brand of religion, so don't presume to call me a hypocrite,
That name suits you religious types better.

And the fact that I am not affected by religion is not I wanting
'An easy way out', It's just you have chosen the wrong way of
Perceiving life, that's your problem...not mine.

Maybe what I really see here is that you cannot handle seeing
A man who is not bound by the guilt complex that rules your life.
Are you jealous of being free?

You can easily escape from you mind's prison.

But only if you can beat fear.

I hope you can.

 

[Lt.Col. Kilgore]

Originally posted by The Art of War


I don't know if religion breeds on fear or not. I haven't a fear because of religion. I woud die for my religion, as many others have in the past.

This only contributes to the 'killing for religion' argument. Not to say that you are by any means a fanatic. What I would have to ask though, is why you would have to defend your religion. Is its doctrine that feeble that it has to be defended by 'weak, sinning humans'? I guess god helps those who help themselves.
Your assumption was close in that religion is indeed bred out of fear.

Originally posted by The Art of War


My main argument for yours and others' statements about not believing in God is that you ARE afraid. Afraid of going to hell. I'm sure it's ALOT easier not having to worry about that, not having to worry about something that you did that you regret. 'Heck, man, I robbed that guy. I'm glad I don't believe in God. Man, its nice to have to worry about hell.' seems like the easy way out to me.

I used to be a Catholic. When I believed, life was much more easy to stomach. I was an alter server and I loved the compassionate Jesus. It was around twelve that I started very seriously questioning my faith. I wondered why Christianity is correct and not Hinduism, Zoarastrianism or even Asatru. I went to speak to the head priest at my parish. He was a real down to earth guy (and sure as hell didn't molest any kids) and quite reasonable as well. I asked him: How is it that we know our religious belief is true?" He responded: "We do not. That is why its called faith." Well I felt very sick after hearing this. I felt as though the world was stripped of all its divinity. I still feel that it would be nice to have some deeper meaning to life and I would very much like there to be a perfect being to guide (though I believe the god of the bible to be far from perfect and seems very man-made). Even though I would prefer to have a religious meaning in life I simply will not lie to myself. I hate lies!

On the case of morals, I have my own set. I believe all morals to be subjective. So I believe my morals are irrelevant to many people who don't share them other than me exercising them. My morals cannot be proven, yet I stick by them. I don't expect anyone else to follow them as that is their own choice though if I disagreed strongly with someone else's I'd have a hard time liking them, though it would not be impossible. I have morals which are both strongly in accordance and strongly in contrast to Judeo-Christian morals. I don't care to go into most of them though I will say their is no way I would hold god in higher importance to me than my family/close friends.

I remember a nun came into my class once and she started rambling on about helping one's neighbour. She said that if someone came to you dying of thirst and begging for water that you should not turn them away! The reason being she said is that a good Christian treats each other as if they were themselves the lord since an afront to your neighbor is as bad as an afront to the lord himself! Hence if you help this person god will smile on you and you will be rewarded. I thought to myself: "I thought the whole point of helping someone is to alleviate their suffering and not kissing god's ass to get a nicer afterlife. I know how sh!tty life can be and I don't think it'd be proper to tell them to blow." (I guess I'm just too altruistic.)

As far as hell. I don't remember reading in the bible that hell is fire and brimstone, etc. Thats the church's perversion of it. (Kind of like the Catholic church ommiting several gospels from the new testament that didn't support their view of Christ). It states that hell is the absence of god's precence. Earth seems highly suspect!

Originally posted by The Art of War


PS: DOn't give me that BS about how I'm a weak minded person or some other crap. I think I am a stronger minded person because of religion, and I haven't the time for your nonsense.

Our opinions of you should be taken with a grain of salt (and they are surely not caustic) since we do not know you. You have nothing to prove to us so there is no point in taking it personally. It helps nothing.

 

[Juize]

Morale is more important than Science.
Religion is mainly twisted morale.

 

[MrPresident]

Here is my two cents on the topic.

Science = A belief based on fact

Religion = A belief based on faith

What I would have to ask though, is why you would have to defend your religion. Is its doctrine that feeble that it has to be defended by 'weak, sinning humans'

Religion is not the only thing people kill for and what people would die for. You have to ask yourself would you die for your country? would you die for freedom and liberty? would you die for your beliefs? would you die to protect your family/friends?
The Art of War is not saying he would kill for his religion, just that he would die for it.

 

[Lt.Col. Kilgore]

Originally posted by MrPresident
Here is my two cents on the topic.

Religion is not the only thing people kill for and what people would die for. You have to ask yourself would you die for your country? would you die for freedom and liberty? would you die for your beliefs? would you die to protect your family/friends?
The Art of War is not saying he would kill for his religion, just that he would die for it.

You misunderstood that statement. I asked, if the belief system he adheres to is divine then why must humans protect it. Nothing more than that. I wasn't commenting on how religion is the only thing people kill for. You must be confusing me with someone else.

 

[Adebisi]

Originally posted by Sparrowhawk


Let's see (in no particular order):

Ireland

The Crusades

The current Israel/Arab situation (if they didn't conflict religiously, they'd live together in the same land no prob.)

The "war" on terror

Yugoslavia

The Rwandan Massacre

Wars for sacrifices between Central American civilizations


Of course, it's harder to come up with examples of wars fought
only for religious purposes. Many have been driven by religious purposes, and wound up being conquests.

I would put it the other way around. The Crusades had political goals, but with a little double-think religion could be used to support them. The confilct in Ireland has deeper roots than religion, altough the gap between the two groups would most likely have disappeared if they were separated by anything else than religion. The Rwandan massacres cant be blamed on religion. Do you think the situation in Yugoslavia would be any better if both sides had the same religion? I certainly dont. And finally - how, how could Palestinians and Jews possibly be happy and shake hands if they had the same religion?

 

[Juize]

Originally posted by Adebisi
I would put it the other way around. The Crusades had political goals, but with a little double-think religion could be used to support them. The confilct in Ireland has deeper roots than religion, altough the gap between the two groups would most likely have disappeared if they were separated by anything else than religion. The Rwandan massacres cant be blamed on religion. Do you think the situation in Yugoslavia would be any better if both sides had the same religion? I certainly dont. And finally - how, how could Palestinians and Jews possibly be happy and shake hands if they had the same religion?

Religion has been an excuse to wars in middle-ages,
such as ethnic reasons were an excuse to war in -39.

Without religion, some of the wars would never been broken out.
But not all of them.

 

[BigBirdZ28]

Science being the opposite of Relgion is something that is only present in the west, there is no just notion in the muslim world

Science is constantly proving religion(I can only speak for Islam).

Why pit the fruit against the tree ?

Have you judged all the sciences through time against all the religions through time ?

 

[Adebisi]

Without religion, some of the wars would never been broken out.
But not all of them.

After studying many of the greater "religious" wars I believe that religion was not a huge factor in them at all. As such, I believe religion does more good than harm. Juize, all you need to do is drive 500 km to the east and you'll see what a mess people end up in when their religion is removed by force.

 

[Mr Spice]

I am all for science. When religion and science are in conflict, science is the way to go. That does not mean I claim god/gods/spirits/whatever do not exist, just that science is way better to explain how nature works than the Bible, the Koran, the Bagavad-Gita or any other statement of religious belief.

 

[Juize]

Originally posted by Adebisi
After studying many of the greater "religious" wars I believe that religion was not a huge factor in them at all. As such, I believe religion does more good than harm. Juize, all you need to do is drive 500 km to the east and you'll see what a mess people end up in when their religion is removed by force.

[WHINE MODE]D'uh. 500 km east is nothing but tundra.[/WHINE]

Did I say that religion should be taken with force.
Religion gives a good [tekosyy] to start waging wars.
This will not affect leaders and their motives, but it will certainly
effect the public opinion, if someone has a good [syy] to start waging wars.

Within religion (and nationism in US few times ago), it's easy to manipulate
the mob (nowadays called 'public opinion'. bull****, same old ignorant #### as the pleibiji on colosseums)

 

[D.Shaffer]

Wars are fought for many reasons. Very often, religion is used as an excuse for this. Of course, it's not the ONLY excuse used for this. Nationalism, racism, protection of histories, self defense, and even humanitarianism have been given as excuses for war. If you actually LOOK at the wars in question, however, you'll see the main reason for war is power, either economic or political in nature (Or both)

Originally posted by Sparrowhawk


Let's see (in no particular order):

Ireland

This is more nationalism and conflicting culture. While religion is part of the culture equation, it's not the sole thing.

The Crusades

Economic power. Holy lands are smack dab in the middle of major trade routes. Additionally, it was seen as a way to get middle and younger borne sons, who would not normally be given any inheritence, a chance to earn more land. Additionaly, many travelers went to Jeruselam so there was money their too.

The current Israel/Arab situation (if they didn't conflict religiously, they'd live together in the same land no prob.)

Again, that's the excuse they'er giving for it. The true reason for the current troubles is control of certain key areas.

The "war" on terror

Come on, you KNOW you're reaching on this one. You dont think a certain terrorist faction slamming a passenger plane into a major financial center had anything to do with it? If a fundamentalist Christian terrorist org had done it (Ad they DO exist), we'd still be after them.

Yugoslavia

Old cultural rivalries that were only held in check by the communist government. Religion had little to do with it.

The Rwandan Massacre

Again, old cultural ties. The two factions involved are basically repeating past hostilities between the tribes that make up the principle members of those factions.

Wars for sacrifices between Central American civilizations

Wars were fought in the meso american civs for economic reasons. The winners of such fights gained tribute from the loosers as well as slaves. The sacrifices were a lucky bonus due to their religious structuer, and likely developed as a means of influencing the other side anyways. The Flwoer wars, while the stated purpose was for sacrifices, were more about the Aztecs cowing their member city states into acknowledging Aztec dominance as WELL as giving the Aztec army someone to trample and maintain fighting skills.

 

[The Art of War]

Originally posted by Lt.Col. Kilgore


You misunderstood that statement. I asked, if the belief system he adheres to is divine then why must humans protect it. Nothing more than that. I wasn't commenting on how religion is the only thing people kill for. You must be confusing me with someone else.

Humans must protect it because other humans wish it harm. Why would you protect anything else? Because someone out there wants to harm it. ALso, I never said my religion was "the right" religion, just that it is the one I believe in.

 

[allan2]

"Allan2, I was referring to the cringing fear most people like
Yourself have when faced with a moral dilemma."

Concern that I will do the right thing, not hurt people unnecessarily, etc. I don't call that fear, I call it WANTING to do the right thing. I hope you have similar concerns, whether you are religious or not.

I've mentioned before that I was not religious myself, but MANY people are helped by it. You see, I am capable of looking outside my own experiences and accepting that just because people do things different from me (like, belong to a church), doesn't mean their experience is less valid or less of a good thing.

You, however, read my simple post that basically stated, "religion isn't ALL bad, ALL black without any white," which really IS reasonable, and what do YOU do? You jump to conclusions. Including the conclusions you've made about me (most inaccurately) below. Thing is, I think you're probably incapable of seeing how foolish you look by making these rash judgments about me, my character and experience. Anger (and you seem to have a LOT of anger about religion--so did I once, it's like deja vu) often does cloud one's perceptions of things around them.

I suggest you start again by going back over my post here--ALL of it.

"Perhaps you are blinded by what you see as your high-minded
Mission to prove religion is beyond all criticism."

I NEVER said it was beyond all criticism. I said it wasn't black-and-white. I'll even quote from that part of my post that you couldn't read, apparently: "religion can be used for good or evil." Now, how does that compute with religion being beyond all criticism? Actually NOTHING is beyond all criticism, including you, so brace yourself because you have some coming to you now.

"If so, your mission is doomed on the launch pad."

I have no mission. You obviously do however--you speak the type of rhetoric of a "man with a mission." Like any fanatic reactionary, you throw the baby out with the bath water and call it ALL bad. Ironic that SOME of the very religious people you criticize do the same thing.

If I didn't know better, I'd guess you were a fundamentalist--same pattern of thinking.... (And I've seen some of this kind of thing in a few of your other posts too.)

"It is sad to see someone who is so chained by his own perception
That he is scared to move through fear of some imagined divine
Retribution or moral decay."

I don't fear "divine retribution." I DO fear moral decay however. I fear people being less inhibited to do harm to others, to be dishonest to others. I also would like to see people being more compassionate to others. Wouldn't you? If religion helps some people be better people in these ways (and for a lot of ordinary people, it does), that is fine with me.

"In a way I pity the kind of person you are."

Don't throw your "pity" at me! You don't have the faintest idea what I'm like, and your post proves it.

You may not realize it, but you are in absolutely NO position to be condescending to me. Nor am I to you.

"But also you could free yourself from oppression."

I am quite free already. Including free from irrational anger. Even now, while reading your condescending tripe.... (i'm being STERN, not angry )

"Y'see, religion breeds on weakness and fear."

In some cases, it has and does. In others' experiences, it has not. Do you speak for EVERYONE who is into religion?

"I know you have fear, deep down."

Everyone has SOME fear. Within proper boundaries, it is a vital survival mechanism. So?

So you no ONE thing about me (although it is likely not like you thought). You're now 1 for 99

"Most people do,"

Everyone but the simplest FOOL has fear of something. Like me, I have fear of crashing my car, eating poison, smashing my head on pavement, etc. These fears help me avoid careless actions or mistakes that will likely or certainly result in such consequences.

Now I don't avoid morally bad things out of fear of hell, but out of not wanting to hurt people, not wanting to have the reputation of hurting people, and because I think the world would be better if people didn't do each other wrong so much. I don't NEED punishment to steer me away from wrong, as I have other internal deterrences. However, SOME people (I hate repeating myself, so sorry other readers, but Curt obviously didn't get it the first time) are primarily motivated by physical rewards and punishments. So if religion helps THESE people not to do bad things to each other (and indeed it does), I'm all for it doing THAT.

I certainly DO object to people twisting religion to compel people to do bad things to each other. Like I said, religion can be used for good AND for evil (as can science or just about anything). I applaud when it is used for good (as most ordinary, average, people-who-don't-make-the-news-or-history types use it in their everyday lives), and deplore it when it is used for evil.

Difference between you and me, is that I see both uses being used--you just see the evil.

"A religious person may have the outward image of confidence,
But I suspect under the surface lurks, self doubt, depression and
A lack of true purpose and belonging."

All it is, for most people, is a way to explain the intangibles in life and find some sort of peace with things. You may have done that in a different way. So what? Are you better?

Tell me, o guru, what IS the RIGHT and BEST way to find peace and "true purpose and belonging"? Are all those who don't do what YOU did just deluding themselves?

"Even though I am what religious types would ignorantly regard a
heathen, I have none of these personality flaws, and have a
successful life, I have never been held back by this ludicrous
moral code, or pitiful Fear of some non-existent god."

I assume you have some moral code though. Or at least I hope you do. It doesn't matter whether it came from religion, or from your own thinking. For example, would you cheat someone out of their money even if you never would get caught? Kill someone under the same circumstances?

"Such balderdash was programmed into you as a child, perhaps an act of arrested development by your parents?
I will not attempt to profile, as only you know your mind."

You've already attempted to profile and failed. Good that you see that now, and have learned your lesson!

"Nonetheless, I can see you are an intelligent man, Allan2,
And I have high regard for your well-crafted words."

Now comes the flattery part of your post, to try and soften everything else . If you are sincere, then thanks for the sincere complement. But that doesn't negate your earlier condescension.

You're not bad yourself, when you don't condesend or fancy yourself better or more enlightened than others here. There's a difference between speaking your mind bluntly (a trait you seem to value, as do I), and taking a haughty tone like that. People WILL slap you down for the latter. I would expect them to do the same with me too.

I've been particularly harsh here, because I think you need to know exactly how blind your APPARENT anger (note I don't psychoanalyze WITH CERTAINTY here, unlike some folks I know) at religion has made you to my careful arguments. You resorted to presume to psychoanalyze me without even regarding what I said.

Maybe I'm psychoanalyzing you wrongly by calling you angry, and if so my bad too. But your tone comes across that way.

My whole argument, if you had read the post, was that religion is not ALL black like you say it is--nothing more than that. But you insist it is all black. I contend it is gray. I never EVER said it was white.

"It's a pity your development as an individual is hamstrung by
Your deep-rooted guilt and religious entrapment."

How many times do I have to say it? I am not myself religious. I'd say YOU'RE trapped in your blind misconceptions. I'm not religious (not that I'd be "ashamed" of being so before people like you, or anyone), and yet I can defend it. If I defend gays, does that mean I'm gay too?

I'm actually quite a complex human being--don't even TRY to figure me out .... Just concentrate on the arguments, thank you. You'll get far more mileage that way....

"You could achieve so much more without such emotional baggage.

"I hope one day you can break free and find real confidence."

You're funny....

"Respect."

Condescension isn't respect, and it will not gain you any either. At least not from me.

So, respect must be earned. Start by taking a deep breath, clearing all the bitterness, and opening your mind. Now, read the post you responded to IN PART again, and this time DISCUSS it, don't REACT. Especially do not react based on your preconceived notions of what kind of person I am (you see where THAT got you), but DISCUSS what the post actually SAYS. That is what we do here.

Thank you.