Scientists Crack 40-year-old DNA Puzzle And Point To 'Hot Soup' At The Origin Of Life

For example, there used to be two theories and both of them fully accounted for the data -- one had the earth revolving around the sun and the other had the sun and other objects in the heavens moving in an extremely mathematically complicated series of orbits (the theory became more and more complicated actually as new data had to be accounted for). Using Ockham's razor one could prefer the simpler theory. You could also use the beauty principle to prefer the more simpler, elegant theory just as a mathematicians prefer simpler, more elegant proofs (for instance if a simpler, elegant proof of Fermat's Last Theorem were possible then that would be much more greatly valued than the complicated proof that is over 100 pages long).

Ok, now you've admitted that simplicity dominates beauty as well. Really you're only harming your own argument! You've relegated beauty to a status of practical irrelevancy.

Simplicity is not a property of beauty, by the way. As you point out with your example of fractals, humans aesthetically value complexity. You also err when you equate simplicity with elegance. The elegance of a theory does not rest on its simplicity but on how many observations it can cover within the bounds of a very finite explanation - in other words elegance is a property of "predictive power" or what we could call "explainability." ;) If we ever come up with a "Theory of Everything" that explains all observations ever made, it will surely NOT be as simple or small as the handful of equations with which Newton explained the orbits of the planets. But it will be far MORE elegant, because with a finite explanation it will be able to predict essentially an infinity of observations ;)

Since your explanations don't satisfy, I'll toss my hat into the ring: Beauty is a SIDE EFFECT of complexity; we admire the random whirl of life even more when we begin to understand that it has underlying and unchanging patterns. This is why beauty IS equated with elegance: we love it when we can explain something seemingly inexplainable.
 
cierdan said:
No there are plenty of theories that fully account for the same data and in these cases the more beautiful theory is to be preferred unless new data causes the less beautiful theory to be preferred on the grounds that it has more explanatory power.

For example, there used to be two theories and both of them fully accounted for the data -- one had the earth revolving around the sun and the other had the sun and other objects in the heavens moving in an extremely mathematically complicated series of orbits (the theory became more and more complicated actually as new data had to be accounted for). Using Ockham's razor one could prefer the simpler theory.

Actually, both are just a complex as the others, after all, all the planets revolve around the sun in complex elliptical orbits. Then you've got comets and asteroids. Then there is the fact that our solar system is orbiting the centre of our galaxy. And of course our galaxy is moving. A much simpler explaination is that the sky is simply a big movie screen which is controlled by a guy in a hut. Using Ockham's razor, this must be true. :rolleyes:

You could also use the beauty principle to prefer the more simpler, elegant theory just as a mathematicians prefer simpler, more elegant proofs (for instance if a simpler, elegant proof of Fermat's Last Theorem were possible then that would be much more greatly valued than the complicated proof that is over 100 pages long).

This doesn't make the original proofs wrong. Saying that something that is simple is beautiful is also wrong. Is a black cube more beautiful than Angelina Jolie?

There are examples today like the one above that involve things like black holes and stuff like that.

Source?

No it's not irrelevant. The more beautiful it is, the more likely it is to be true, ceteris paribus just as the better it accounts for the data the more likely it is to be true. If a theory is just plainly inconsistent with the data then there's no question to be addressed as to whether it or another theory is true -- since theories inconsistent with the data are clearly false. But if two theories are of the same or even very similar explanatory power, which is more beautiful (and this includes which is more simple, elegant, etc.) may tip the balance.

Not in science, it wont. (Are you a scientist, I wonder?)
 
Pontiuth Pilate said:
Ok, now you've admitted that simplicity dominates beauty as well.

No, simplicity is part of beauty. So there's no question of simplicity dominating beauty -- that would be like saying that Germans dominate whites!

Simplicity is not a property of beauty, by the way.

Mathematicians find the simplicity and elegance of proofs beautiful.

As you point out with your example of fractals, humans aesthetically value complexity.

You are confusing complexity with complicatedness. Complexity can be beautiful. Complicatedness is not beautiful. Simplicity is not opposed to complexity; it's only opposed to complicatedness. The beautiful, complex fractal patterns are generated by certain simple, elegant algorithms that can be explained to an elementary school student. Complicatedness is like a VCR manual. Complexity is like playing Go. The rules of Go are very simple. Yet the game is complex. Think "outside the box" ;)

You also err when you equate simplicity with elegance. The elegance of a theory does not rest on its simplicity but on how many observations it can cover within the bounds of a very finite explanation - in other words elegance is a property of "predictive power" or what we could call "explainability." ;)

Mathematical proofs don't have anything to do with "predictive power" and no where did I identify simplicity with elegance. The two concepts are related though. In mathematics, complicated proofs are less valued than simpler proofs which are considered more elegant -- even though both have the same outcome of proving what was set out to be proved. The English guy who proved Fermat's Last Theorem is honored, but if someone comes along and is able to prove the same exact theorem in a simpler way, his name will be memoralized for literally forever and his stardom will be like the stardom Buddha has among Buddhists.

Beauty is a SIDE EFFECT of complexity

Explain then what makes the golden ratio beautiful?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio

I find it one of the most beautiful things mathematically as well as in its visual representation in the world and it has been written about not only by mathematicians but also by art historians, yet it is also one of the most simple concepts and structures.
 
Truronian said:
Actually, both are just a complex as the others, after all, all the planets revolve around the sun in complex elliptical orbits.

No, no, no ... the alternative theory wasn't just about elliptical orbits, it was highly CONVULUTED. Trust me it was much much more complicated! I wish I had a diagram handy to illustrate but here's wikipedia:

Ptolemy further modified this model (see: Ptolemaic system) to more accurately reflect observations by placing epicycles upon epicycles, creating an extraordinarily complicated--but fairly accurate--depiction of the cosmos. He also displaced the Earth from the center of the universe, claiming that, while Earth was enclosed by the celestial spheres, the spheres actually revolved around a point called an eccentric, which was near the Earth but not quite on it.

This elaborate theoretical system stemmed largely from one important observation.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geocentric_universe

A much simpler explaination is that the sky is simply a big movie screen which is controlled by a guy in a hut.

Well that just moves the complicatedness to the world of the guy in the hut that is controlling it, it doesn't change the net complicateness of the whole entire world. But material realism is not certain. Great thinkers such as Berkeley and Leibniz were idealists who thought that the material could in some way be reduced to the ideal (mental, spiritual things). But that's a different topic :)

Is a black cube more beautiful than Angelina Jolie?

Well you're dealing with different kinds of beauty there and when you talk about Angelina Jolie you have not just the physical beauty of her body but also the spiritual beauty of bodily expression to consider (just as an opera is more beautiful if you are able to understand the Italian it is written in). A black cube and Angelina Jolie are not competing explanations for anything so your question is a more general one that I don't really has much application here.


http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/04/04/1112248

Read both the article and some of the comments.

Not in science, it wont.

Science derives its power from math. So if the more beautiful is valued in math, it should also be valued in science. Otherwise you are being inconsistent. Some scientists are gradually coming to recognize how beauty should be more emphasized in science and even play a role in how science operates.
 
No, simplicity is part of beauty.

No, humans find simple things boring and even maddening. For example when the first hospitals were built, the doctors soon disocvered that being incarcerated in a white featureless square room actually drove some patients insane. Humans are essentially curious creatures; therefore we like it when we have MATERIAL for our curiosity to work on, deduce patterns in, etc.

Mathematicians find the simplicity and elegance of proofs beautiful.

But as I just showed you, something can be simple without being elegant, and vice versa.
 
Pontiuth Pilate said:
No, humans find simple things boring and even maddening. For example when the first hospitals were built, the doctors soon disocvered that being incarcerated in a white featureless square room actually drove some patients insane. Humans are essentially curious creatures; therefore we like it when we have MATERIAL for our curiosity to work on, deduce patterns in, etc.

I think we are talking past each other because we are using different definitions of simplicity. Just so you know Christians talk about the simplicity of God even though they believe in the Trinity which is certainly difficult to grasp and according to Christians literally impossible to grasp fully even in heaven. Jews believe also in the simplicity of God, IIRC, and this was probably one of the medieval back and forth arguments between Jews and Christians (i know the oneness of God was at isssue and that's closely related to simplicity when it comes to God). American Heritage definitions of simplicity list 5 distinct definitions. You appear to switch back and forth between definitions without realizing that you are or perhaps you are just conflating some of them:

1. The property, condition, or quality of being simple or uncombined.
2. Absence of luxury or showiness; plainness. [this appears to be the sense that you use above about the plain white room]
3. Absence of affectation or pretense.
4. a)Lack of sophistication or subtlety; naiveté.
b)Lack of good sense or intelligence; foolishness.
5. a) Clarity of expression.
b) Austerity in embellishment.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=67&q=simplicity

Princeton University's Wordnet lists these definitions:

n 1: the quality of being simple or uncompounded; "the simplicity of a crystal" [syn: simpleness] [ant: complexity] 2: a lack of penetration or subtlety; "they took advantage of her simplicity" [syn: simple mindedness] 3: absence of affectation or pretense 4: freedom from difficulty or hardship or effort; "he rose through the ranks with apparent ease"; "they put it into containers for ease of transportation" [syn: ease, easiness] [ant: difficulty] 5: lack of ornamentation; "the room was simply decorated with great restraint"

So according to you a crystal is not beautiful. Virtually everyone would disagree with that. The sense in which I mean simplicity would be the first definition listed in both dictionaries of which an example in the latter is "the simplicity of a crystal"

But as I just showed you, something can be simple without being elegant, and vice versa.

To the degree that something has simplicity (in the sense I've noted above) it will also be elegant. However that does not mean that elegance is solely determined by simplicity. The degree of elegance is determined by roughly the degree of the complexity of the problem divided by the degree of the simplicity of the solution (IOW the ratio). I'm confident you'll see that what I'm saying is true here if you take a moment to reflect on it without trying to disagree with everything I say :)
 
cierdan said:
No, no, no ... the alternative theory wasn't just about elliptical orbits, it was highly CONVULUTED. Trust me it was much much more complicated! I wish I had a diagram handy to illustrate but here's wikipedia:

Ptolemy further modified this model (see: Ptolemaic system) to more accurately reflect observations by placing epicycles upon epicycles, creating an extraordinarily complicated--but fairly accurate--depiction of the cosmos. He also displaced the Earth from the center of the universe, claiming that, while Earth was enclosed by the celestial spheres, the spheres actually revolved around a point called an eccentric, which was near the Earth but not quite on it.

This elaborate theoretical system stemmed largely from one important observation.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geocentric_universe

My point was that whether something is more complicted (or simple or whatever) is opinion, and therefore not scientific. Therefore Ockham's razor is redundant in science.

Well that just moves the complicatedness to the world of the guy in the hut that is controlling it, it doesn't change the net complicateness of the whole entire world. But material realism is not certain. Great thinkers such as Berkeley and Leibniz were idealists who thought that the material could in some way be reduced to the ideal (mental, spiritual things). But that's a different topic :)

Fine then. Its not controlled by a guy in a hut, but by a god that alternates day and night at regular intervals. Still more simple.

Well you're dealing with different kinds of beauty there and when you talk about Angelina Jolie you have not just the physical beauty of her body but also the spiritual beauty of bodily expression to consider (just as an opera is more beautiful if you are able to understand the Italian it is written in). A black cube and Angelina Jolie are not competing explanations for anything so your question is a more general one that I don't really has much application here.

Ah, so now there is more than one type beauty. Your argument is convoluting. My argument is simpler. Which is preferable?


I can't see what that has to do with things

Science derives its power from math. So if the more beautiful is valued in math, it should also be valued in science. Otherwise you are being inconsistent. Some scientists are gradually coming to recognize how beauty should be more emphasized in science and even play a role in how science operates.

You assume the more beautiful is valued in maths. This is not nessecarily true.

And your point on Wiles. Wiles will be remembered for being the first person to prove Fermat's last theorem. He will be remember mor ethan anyone who improves on his proof.
 
cierdan said:
We need to go back to Aristotle's idea of final causes and look not only at what caused what but also for what it was caused

The mainstream idea of the origin's of being, is that there are no reasons for causes.

If there are reasons for causes, there is an idea behind it. That seems absurd to me.
Changes in DNA happen, without any (good) reason. Only the changes that lead to survivable new forms, stay (they others don't survive...).
Hence, it looks like only logical changes are there.
 
Great. Even without the evolution vs. creationism debate, the thread has veered away from the OP.

Maybe I'm not understanding it correctly, but isn't the OP saying that codons are still created based on two out of three gene pairs in a codon(which can either be the first two or last two), allowing multiple codons to code for the same amino acid, but only 12 different amino acids can be coded for in this system, so I'm probably wrong. Does anyone have any more insight or links to more detailed explanations?
 
I think the mods should split this thread, because this is inevitably cause me to do a rather lengthy diatribe against Cierdan's silly creationist philosopy.

Cierdan, your system of philosophy downplays the critical impotortance of not only explaining but making testible predictions. In the article the scientists took an idea and made predictions of how the arrangement of codon translations would work in thier model, then tested against the known system, you derride this because it doesn't fit your silly defintion of beaty dispite the fact that you have no other scientific explinations. I'm gonna stop short here about how this applies to evolution but not ID, but if/when the mods split this thread (Or they don't and I make a new thread) I'll go full bore on how your philosophies are self-inconstistant and damaging to scientific progress.
 
I think the article was neat to say the least; unfortunately, it is all speculation and cannot be proven in our case. If expermimentation shows it consistently works, however, then expect it to become as valid as evolution.
 
Azadre said:
I think the article was neat to say the least; unfortunately, it is all speculation and cannot be proven in our case. If expermimentation shows it consistently works, however, then expect it to become as valid as evolution.
Well, it was experimentally verified by looking for correlations in the translation system, that definitly qualifies as an experiement. Of course, even with the experiement it's still of less veracity then evolution (not to imply that evolution has low veracity).
 
Truronian said:
Fine then. Its not controlled by a guy in a hut, but by a god that alternates day and night at regular intervals. Still more simple.

That doesn't change by a dramatic amount the complicatedness. It just shifts the complicatedness to the mind or activity of the god. The only reduction in complicatedness is found in getting rid of the "middle man" of that guy in the hut. The fundamental complicatedness of a theory can't be changed by simply shifting it to another realm.

Ah, so now there is more than one type beauty.

Just like there is more than one type of number.

Your argument is convoluting. My argument is simpler. Which is preferable?

If my argument sounds convoluted that's just because of my poor writing and communication skills!

I can't see what that has to do with things

You asked for a source for my statement about black holes, and I simply gave it to you.

You assume the more beautiful is valued in maths. This is not nessecarily true.

Well it is true. Mathematicians do value beauty and in direct explicit contradiction to what Pilate said they also specifically value the beauty of simplicity (Pilate originally said they did not value simplicity -- saying that they only valued elegance):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematics

Mathematics is inspiring to mathematicians because it has some intrinsic aesthetics or inner beauty, which is hard to explain. Mathematicians value especially simplicity and generality and when these seemingly incompatible properties combine in a piece of mathematics, as in a unifying generalization for several subfields, or in a helpful tool for common calculations, often that piece of mathematics is called beautiful. Since the result of mathematics inspired by mathematics is often pure mathematics and thus has no applications outside of mathematics yet, the only value it has is in its aesthetics.

And your point on Wiles. Wiles will be remembered for being the first person to prove Fermat's last theorem. He will be remember mor ethan anyone who improves on his proof.

No, trust me, if someone comes along and provides a radically more simple proof of the kind that Fermat himself alluded to in his scribblings, then he will be much more memoralized than Wiles. This is due not simply to the value placed on elegance and simplicity but also due to some historical accidents. Fermat wrote his theorem in a note book and said somewhat wryly perhaps that the MARGIN of that page was too small to contain the proof that he had in mind. Wiles proof uses mathematics that wasn't even around at the time of Fermat and it is certainly not of the length that Fermat had in mind when he spoke of how the MARGIN was too small. In fact there is a whole section of the wikipedia article on FLT that is devoted to this kind of issue:

The quotation was in Latin:

Cubum autem in duos cubos, aut quadratoquadratorum in duos quadratoquadratos,
et generaliter nullam in infinitum ultra quadratum patestatem in duos euisdem
nominis fas est dividere cuius rei demonstrationem mirabilem sane detexi.
Hanc marginis exigitas non caperet.

(It is impossible to separate a cube into two cubes, or a fourth power into two
fourth powers, or in general, any power higher than the second into two like
powers. I have discovered a truly marvelous proof of this, which this margin
is too narrow to contain.)

There is considerable doubt over whether Fermat's claim to have "a truly marvelous proof" was correct. The length of Wiles's proof is about 200 pages and is beyond the understanding of most mathematicians today. It is quite possible that there is a proof that is both essentially shorter, and more elementary in its methods; initial proofs of major results are typically not the most direct.

The methods used by Wiles were unknown when Fermat was writing, and most believe it is unlikely that Fermat managed to derive all the necessary mathematics to demonstrate a solution. In the words of Andrew Wiles, "it's impossible; this is a 20th century proof". Alternatives are that there is a simpler proof that all other mathematicians up until this point have missed, or that Fermat was mistaken.

A plausible faulty proof that might have been accessible to Fermat has been suggested. It is based on the mistaken assumption that unique factorization works in all rings of integral elements of algebraic number fields. This is an acceptable explanation to many experts in number theory, on the grounds that subsequent mathematicians of stature working in the field followed the same path.

The fact that Fermat never published an attempted proof, or even publicly announced that he had one, does suggest that he may have had later thoughts, and simply neglected to cross out his private marginal note. In addition, later in his life, Fermat published a proof for the case

a4 + b4 = c4.
If he really had come up with a proof for the general theorem, it is perhaps less likely that he would have published a proof for a special case, unless this special case could be used to prove the general theorem. The academic conventions of his time were not, however, those that applied from the middle of the eighteenth century, and this argument cannot be taken as definitive.


So if someone were to come up with a proof that would mirror the kind of simple proof Fermat would have come up with, it would not only be "truly marvelous" but also an earth shattering astonishing result since it would be one that all other mathematicians up till the present time have missed and not even come close to (including Wiles). It's not a difference of 200 pages versus 100 pages. It's rather a difference of 200 pages versus just a few pages.
 
cierdan said:
That doesn't change by a dramatic amount the complicatedness. It just shifts the complicatedness to the mind or activity of the god. The only reduction in complicatedness is found in getting rid of the "middle man" of that guy in the hut. The fundamental complicatedness of a theory can't be changed by simply shifting it to another realm.
Cierdan how is God a simple concept? It is a concept that is additional to that of a universe, see my previous post, it is also a concept described as infinite, unknowable...far from simple in my opinion.
cierdan said:
If my argument sounds convoluted that's just because of my poor writing and communication skills!
*cough*
cierdan said:
You asked for a source for my statement about black holes, and I simply gave it to you.
Ah, so you give as an example of a simple theory a theory that accepts all the physics that allow black holes to form, and then presumably tags on a load of extra stuff to say why matters would be different inside the event horizon, thereby adding to the complexity of the situation and becoming completely opposed to your point. Well done.
 
Second the request for a thread-split please.

Interesting article, though like 99% of science articles it leaves me saying, "Cool! Now where's the experimental section and the graphs?"

This part:
The new theory also highlights two amino acids that can be excluded from the doublet system and are likely to be relatively recent ‘acquisitions’ by the genetic code. As these amino acids - glutamine and asparagine - are unable to hold their shape in high temperatures, this suggests that heat prevented them from being acquired by the code at some point in the past.

One possible reason for this is that the Last Universal Common Ancestor (LUCA), which evolved into all life on earth, lived in a hot sulphurous pool or thermal vent. As it moved into cooler conditions, it was able to take up these two additional amino acids and evolve into more complex organisms. This provides further evidence for the debate on whether life emerged from a hot or cold primordial soup.
makes me wonder if modern bacteria that live in hot springs and such code for asparagine and glutamine. And how does that affect that part of the theory if they do?

Renata
 
brennan said:
Cierdan how is God a simple concept? It is a concept that is additional to that of a universe, see my previous post, it is also a concept described as infinite, unknowable...far from simple in my opinion.

"simple" means not easy to understand but uncompounded (def 1) See the list of definitions I listed. There are five distinct definitions from American Heritage dictionary and Princeton University. You are conflating several of them together.

Also what you quoted doesn't have anything to do with whether God is simple. We weren't even talking about God there as far as I am aware. We certainly weren't arguing about God's existence. The point I was making there was in response to this original comment:

'A much simpler explaination is that the sky is simply a big movie screen which is controlled by a guy in a hut."

my point -- which has nothing to do with God -- is that this is NOT a simpler explanation (whether it's a guy in a hut, a god, or God or whatever) because it merely SHIFTS the complicatedness from one realm to another. IOW, if you suppose that the world is all just a holographic program a la Star Trek then that doesn't make the world any more simple or less complicated. It just SHIFTS the complicatedness to the holographic program. And the same holds true for shifting the complicateness to god, God or whatever.

We already have a thread where we talk about the unrelated issue you raise, so I suggest we concentrate the discussion in that thread instead of this one.

Ah, so you give as an example of a simple theory a theory that accepts all the physics that allow black holes to form, and then presumably tags on a load of extra stuff to say why matters would be different inside the event horizon, thereby adding to the complexity of the situation and becoming completely opposed to your point. Well done.

I don't think you read the thread properly. My point THERE was about how there can be TWO theories which fully account for the exact same data and I mentioned as an example stuff about black holes. The theory in the link is an ALTERNATIVE theory that accounts for the exact same data as the standard theory. Pilate was saying there's no such animal, when there clearly is.
 
cierdan said:
That doesn't change by a dramatic amount the complicatedness. It just shifts the complicatedness to the mind or activity of the god. The only reduction in complicatedness is found in getting rid of the "middle man" of that guy in the hut. The fundamental complicatedness of a theory can't be changed by simply shifting it to another realm.

This just adds to my argument. The fact that you see the concept of a God controlling the day and night more complicated than the current model for the universe jsut goes to show there are different opinions on 'complicated'. Need I remind you that I am not the one who believes in a divine being.

You asked for a source for my statement about black holes, and I simply gave it to you.

Brennan's covered this

Well it is true. Mathematicians do value beauty and in direct explicit contradiction to what Pilate said they also specifically value the beauty of simplicity (Pilate originally said they did not value simplicity -- saying that they only valued elegance):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematics

Mathematics is inspiring to mathematicians because it has some intrinsic aesthetics or inner beauty, which is hard to explain. Mathematicians value especially simplicity and generality and when these seemingly incompatible properties combine in a piece of mathematics, as in a unifying generalization for several subfields, or in a helpful tool for common calculations, often that piece of mathematics is called beautiful. Since the result of mathematics inspired by mathematics is often pure mathematics and thus has no applications outside of mathematics yet, the only value it has is in its aesthetics.

Mathematics does value simplicity, but not over accuracy and rigorous proof. The beauty that exists in maths is something only mathematicians really understand, this is not the beauty that you are arguing for. The most simple proofs are not always the most beautiful.

No, trust me, if someone comes along and provides a radically more simple proof of the kind that Fermat himself alluded to in his scribblings, then he will be much more memoralized than Wiles. This is due not simply to the value placed on elegance and simplicity but also due to some historical accidents. Fermat wrote his theorem in a note book and said somewhat wryly perhaps that the MARGIN of that page was too small to contain the proof that he had in mind. Wiles proof uses mathematics that wasn't even around at the time of Fermat and it is certainly not of the length that Fermat had in mind when he spoke of how the MARGIN was too small. In fact there is a whole section of the wikipedia article on FLT that is devoted to this kind of issue:

The quotation was in Latin:

Cubum autem in duos cubos, aut quadratoquadratorum in duos quadratoquadratos,
et generaliter nullam in infinitum ultra quadratum patestatem in duos euisdem
nominis fas est dividere cuius rei demonstrationem mirabilem sane detexi.
Hanc marginis exigitas non caperet.

(It is impossible to separate a cube into two cubes, or a fourth power into two
fourth powers, or in general, any power higher than the second into two like
powers. I have discovered a truly marvelous proof of this, which this margin
is too narrow to contain.)

There is considerable doubt over whether Fermat's claim to have "a truly marvelous proof" was correct. The length of Wiles's proof is about 200 pages and is beyond the understanding of most mathematicians today. It is quite possible that there is a proof that is both essentially shorter, and more elementary in its methods; initial proofs of major results are typically not the most direct.

The methods used by Wiles were unknown when Fermat was writing, and most believe it is unlikely that Fermat managed to derive all the necessary mathematics to demonstrate a solution. In the words of Andrew Wiles, "it's impossible; this is a 20th century proof". Alternatives are that there is a simpler proof that all other mathematicians up until this point have missed, or that Fermat was mistaken.

A plausible faulty proof that might have been accessible to Fermat has been suggested. It is based on the mistaken assumption that unique factorization works in all rings of integral elements of algebraic number fields. This is an acceptable explanation to many experts in number theory, on the grounds that subsequent mathematicians of stature working in the field followed the same path.

The fact that Fermat never published an attempted proof, or even publicly announced that he had one, does suggest that he may have had later thoughts, and simply neglected to cross out his private marginal note. In addition, later in his life, Fermat published a proof for the case

a4 + b4 = c4.
If he really had come up with a proof for the general theorem, it is perhaps less likely that he would have published a proof for a special case, unless this special case could be used to prove the general theorem. The academic conventions of his time were not, however, those that applied from the middle of the eighteenth century, and this argument cannot be taken as definitive.


So if someone were to come up with a proof that would mirror the kind of simple proof Fermat would have come up with, it would not only be "truly marvelous" but also an earth shattering astonishing result since it would be one that all other mathematicians up till the present time have missed and not even come close to (including Wiles). It's not a difference of 200 pages versus 100 pages. It's rather a difference of 200 pages versus just a few pages.

Having read on Fermat's last theorem extensively I would like to point out a few things. Wiles proof is not simply a proof of Fermat's Last Theorem, it incorperates many realms of mathematics to solve one seemingly simple problem. This is why it is doubtful that a simpler proof would be looked upon as better. Also most mathematicians agree that Fermat did not actually ahve a proof. Given the time it took Wiles to find his, and the amount of modern maths involved, it is commonly accepted that Fermats proof was either flawed, or non-exixtant (he was known to play jokes)
 
Truronian said:
This just adds to my argument. The fact that you see the concept of a God controlling the day and night more complicated than the current model for the universe jsut goes to show there are different opinions on 'complicated'.

That's not what I said. What I said was that it doesn't make it any more substantially LESS or MORE complicated. It only SHIFTS where the complicatedness is located. This is a really simple point I am making :) Any increase or decrease in complicatedness is marginal. You've also switched from talking about the movie screen to something else entirely. Let me repeat that this has NOTHING to do with God so stop making it a God issue! I could illustrate my point without mentioning God or ANY divine being at all and I thought I already did that :crazyeye:

Mathematics does value simplicity, but not over accuracy and rigorous proof.

You are arguing with a phantom AKA a strawman! My original principle was that CETERIS PARIBUS, a more beautiful explanation is to be preferred to a less beautiful one. OBVIOUSLY if a proof is just false and incorrect it will not be valued much if at all! "ceteris paribus" means all other things being equal. It's Latin and it is a concept widely used in many fields including ECONOMICS.

The beauty that exists in maths is something only mathematicians really understand, this is not the beauty that you are arguing for.

What makes you think I wasn't arguing for it? :crazyeye: and what makes you think only mathematicians really understand it? :crazyeye: I already mentioned that there were different types of beauty and I specifically mentioned beautiful things in the mathematical realm such as the golden ratio -- and I stated that this beauty was MANFIESTED visually but that it is also intrinsic to it.

Having read on Fermat's last theorem extensively I would like to point out a few things. Wiles proof is not simply a proof of Fermat's Last Theorem, it incorperates many realms of mathematics to solve one seemingly simple problem. This is why it is doubtful that a simpler proof would be looked upon as better. Also most mathematicians agree that Fermat did not actually ahve a proof. Given the time it took Wiles to find his, and the amount of modern maths involved, it is commonly accepted that Fermats proof was either flawed, or non-exixtant (he was known to play jokes)

Ask any mathematician, "Would it be extremely amazing and astonishing if someone were to come up with a proof with length and simplicity similar to what Fermat may have come up with assuming he did actually have a proof?" And I guarantee you that the mathematician will answer "Of course!" If you ask him whether such a discovery will be more amazing than Wiles' result, I would bet a million bucks that the answer would be a yes also.
 
cierdan said:
That's not what I said. What I said was that it doesn't make it any more substantially LESS or MORE complicated. It only SHIFTS where the complicatedness is located. This is a really simple point I am making :) Any increase or decrease in complicatedness is marginal. You've also switched from talking about the movie screen to something else entirely. Let me repeat that this has NOTHING to do with God so stop making it a God issue! I could illustrate my point without mentioning God or ANY divine being at all and I thought I already did that :crazyeye:

The reason I introduced a god was that this was the original explaination attributed to the solar cycles (eg Ra). The reason for this explaination was that it was simple (in their eyes). I fail to see why this does not disprove the scientific validity of Ockham's razor.

You are arguing with a phantom AKA a strawman! My original principle was that CETERIS PARIBUS, a more beautiful explanation is to be preferred to a less beautiful one. OBVIOUSLY if a proof is just false and incorrect it will not be valued much if at all! "ceteris paribus" means all other things being equal. It's Latin and it is a concept widely used in many fields including ECONOMICS.

Actually, your original argument was that a argument similar to Ockham's could be used to descide between to competing theories on a phenomenon.

Ask any mathematician, "Would it be extremely amazing and astonishing if someone were to come up with a proof with length and simplicity similar to what Fermat may have come up with assuming he did actually have a proof?" And I guarantee you that the mathematician will answer "Of course!" If you ask him whether such a discovery will be more amazing than Wiles' result, I would bet a million bucks that the answer would be a yes also.

Then you've lost a million bucks. The value of Wiles proof lies not in the solution to Fermat's problem, but in the solution to many other practical mathematical problems that he accomplished or contributed to along the way, and the new found unity of mathematics that he contributed to. A two line proof would be impressive, but intrinsicly useless.
 
Knight-Dragon said:

I don't see why this is such a great discovery. I thought it was all understood long ago.

There are 20 amino acids but a codon is 3 bases long. There are 4 bases (ATCG) so a codon of 2 bases would only produce 16 combinations (4x4=16). So, 2 isn't enough, so a 3rd came about. But 3 is too much, so there.

I don't see the mystery.
 
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