Scions documentation

[Tarquelne]

Next question on the list of things - I ask these here because I think Tarq may watch it a little more than the main modder's guide thread

It's been awhile since I've known the answer to a question.

Is the Scion spawn control all Python, or is it somewhere in the XML - and in either case, where?

I see Valk. pointed out where it is. I'll just add that it's called from the function above it, "doTurnScions", which is itself called from CvEventManager.

And note that doTurnScions asks for a number between 0 and 10,000. Some decimal contortions were required to get the graphical spawn chance display working.

 

[Tarquelne]

Schola Furo - or whatever - is one of the possible buildings from the Thaumaturge's Keep. If you get it it's replacing one of the mana sources. It gives +4 xps to any Arcane units built in the city.

Worth it? Had it last game and I'd have much rather had another mana.

Speaking of that - What say you guys list mana-source results from the Keep you don't like, or wish were possibilites? If there's some general agreement and/or good arguments with regard to mana types I'll remove or add some.

 

[Methuselah]

Speaking of that - What say you guys list mana-source results from the Keep you don't like,

Ice mana.

That should be kept to the Illians/Letum Frigus and such.

Not sure what I'd replace it with though.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

I could certainly use Life and Body mana as the Scions. Missed them during my games...

 

[Iceciro]

Ice mana.

That should be kept to the Illians/Letum Frigus and such.

Not sure what I'd replace it with though.

In Fall Further any civ can make Ice Mana nodes at elementalism. It isn't blocked off like it is in FFH.

 

[Methuselah]

In Fall Further any civ can make Ice Mana nodes at elementalism. It isn't blocked off like it is in FFH.

Fair enough, but it could still be removed from the keep.

Giving them life mana sounds like a bad idea to, considering the current life 2 spell.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

Fair enough, but it could still be removed from the keep.

Giving them life mana sounds like a bad idea to, considering the current life 2 spell.

OK, then, how about removing that building that gives 3 Happiness with life mana???

 

[Thunder_Gr]

I just remembered! It is the Cathedral of Rebirth. It cannot be removed, but it still gives 3 Happy with life mana.

 

[Methuselah]

I just remembered! It is the Cathedral of Rebirth. It cannot be removed, but it still gives 3 Happy with life mana.

There's an idea for a random event. Like how nodes flare up, the life mana powering the building goes wrong and damages nearby undead/reduces pop or something. Would make up for their immunity to the sickness event, no?

 

[Thunder_Gr]

There's an idea for a random event. Like how nodes flare up, the life mana powering the building goes wrong and damages nearby undead/reduces pop or something. Would make up for their immunity to the sickness event, no?

Do you have something personal with the Scions? The argument that you think they are overpowered does not sound good enough for moking them at every step. There are quite a few overpowered civs, but I don't read so frequent comments on them by you...

 

[Methuselah]

Do you have something personal with the Scions? The argument that you think they are overpowered does not sound good enough for moking them at every step. There are quite a few overpowered civs, but I don't read so frequent comments on them by you...

I'm merely proposing counterbalances to their features. You might like playing a civ which has a lot of good events and few bad events, which is fair enough. Not everyone wants to though.

EDIT:

I could say the reverse about you. Every time someone proposes something that would weaken them a bit, you rush to their defence. I don't see you defending other civs.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

EDIT:

I could say the reverse about you. Every time someone proposes something that would weaken them a bit, you rush to their defence. I don't see you defending other civs.

You obviously don't read my posts in the FFH forum. In the FF forum, only the Scions are being talked in being nerfed all the time.

 

[Methuselah]

In the FF forum, only the Scions are being talked in being nerfed all the time.

Possibly because they're the main civ that needs it? (well outside of the manor for the Calabim, but that's a different matter. )

As far as I'm aware, none of the other civs have features on the scale that the Scions do. Whilst it's nice to have lots of unique buildings/units/terrain and such, it is important that they are balanced.

 

[Ksi]

Possibly because they're the main civ that needs it? (well outside of the manor for the Calabim, but that's a different matter. )

As far as I'm aware, none of the other civs have features on the scale that the Scions do. Whilst it's nice to have lots of unique buildings/units/terrain and such, it is important that they are balanced.

Not to take sides between you and thunder but you do seem to suggest a lot of stuff that many people feel would dull the game without backing it up soundly...

Anyway, can the scions only make one assassin now or is the dagger something unique? I know he can be upgraded from a level two but I haven't tried the new patch out yet. The former would be pretty crippling.

 

[Anathema]

Possibly because they're the main civ that needs it? (well outside of the manor for the Calabim, but that's a different matter. )

As far as I'm aware, none of the other civs have features on the scale that the Scions do. Whilst it's nice to have lots of unique buildings/units/terrain and such, it is important that they are balanced.

To be fair, for all the cool unique things Scions get, they miss out on a lot of things other civs take for granted. For example, no other civ has such a crippled growth mechanic. I find there are games where the Scions do very very well - games where the more expansive civs don't have room to expand, and the smaller Scion population can compete with them - and then there are games where most other civs spam settlers and quickly balloon out to several times the land area and population of the Scions, to a point where you will never come close to the AI for pure production and military strength, and are forced to seek victory by other means. You might point out certain later game techs that allow the Scions to close the population gap a bit - cathedrals of rebirth, sorcery+priesthood for razing enemy cities to generate reborn, etc - but none of these match a certain "settler" unit other civs can build or a certain "food" resource they can collect.

I'm not saying Scions are underpowered by any means, I'm just saying their unique strengths that no other civ can match are accompanied by their unique weaknesses that no other civ shares either. There are game options/map types/etc you can choose that emphasize the Scion strengths and make them overpowered, but then there are game options that emphasize their weaknesses and make them.. not impossible to win with, but much more challenging to play than another civ would be.

Edit - and don't get me wrong, I'd love to see this fixed somehow. I'd like to see Scions as limited as other civs are on crowded maps, and equally capable of expanding exponentially on larger sparsely populated maps, in short I'd like to see them balanced with other civs. I'm not sure how this could be done or if it's even possible given the Scions' unique population growth mechanic, however. Just saying it's not fair to say they need nerfs all around, without recognizing there are situations when they're equally in need of buffs.

 

[odalrick]

Continuing the list of things that Scions lose:

Many spells: Haste, Regeneration, Valor, Courage, Heal...

Health resources and food. Many starts are horrible because you are surrounded by grassland, wheat and rice.

Assassins. Scions get one assassin at a time, other civs get as many they can build.

Mobility.

Research freedom. Scions need lots of techs from different parts of the tree. Also, researching Agriculture is always a drag.

 

[Tarquelne]

Anyway, can the scions only make one assassin now or is the dagger something unique?

6 Martyrs of Patria, suicidal, but they've got Marksman.

Only 1 Dagger - not suicidal. She has a spell to find Alcinus, a spell to get a chance at killing him without declaring war, a bonus vs. arcane units.

Edit - and don't get me wrong, I'd love to see this fixed somehow. I'd like to see Scions as limited as other civs are on crowded maps, and equally capable of expanding exponentially on larger sparsely populated maps

Adjusting the spawn rate might be do-able: Some sort of comparison between map size and # of civs. ?

 

[Tarquelne]

I've currently got Draw Strength rigged to last indefinitely within Scion borders and then 15 turns outside those borders. (I got tired of clicking on the spell after every combat.)

Less micro, but a significant boost in the spells usefulness - so I changed it to the same effect as Magic Resistance, though with 10% resistance to spells rather than 20%. Same resistances to special damage types. (And I may add some holy/unholy resistance.) Nice when you need it, but you don't need it nearly as often as a straight combat boost.

What do you guys think? Lower the damage resistances to 10 or 15? Should it wear of sooner? Later? Go back to a combat boost of some sort?

 

[Iceciro]

I think that it should just work the same way the other mage-casted spells work - it will stay on the stack as long as the mage stays in the stack.

 

[TimSLS]

On the draw strength spell - I may not be representative, but I actually didn't mind recasting corpus after combat, mainly because I liked the idea of carting around Adepts and Priests casting support spells with my armies. And so the micromanagment of recasting becomes almost fun... To that end I rather like it the way it is, especially with keeping the combat bonus (which actually never seemed terribly overpowering to me, compared to say the level 1 enchantment 'enchanted blade', though obviously more kinds of units can recieve the draw strength bonus...)