Well, every few turns the counter goes down, but the trend should still be up, at least for a good chunk of the game. Because you are hooking up luxury recources, building spawning increasing buildings, etc. Until all your cities have halls of the covenent it should be an upwards trend.
Artic Circle- Granted I only play against AI, but I never get outpopulated to such an extent. And my performance as the scions, I would say is only a little behind how I do with the Lanun and Elves. Perhaps you could post a couple of saves, so we can see what is happening?
I remember the rationale for the spawning modifier being that the Awakened have short attention spans, and it takes more to convince them out of the Tomb as time goes on. So long as you have happiness resources, and don't overly focus on your capital, it should be possible to beat the counter. If you have a giant capital, and only a few small cities, you won't be able to build enough of the buildings you need.
Yeah, problem being it's sort of a doublewin/doublelose.
If you have plenty of resources/hammers invested into the right buildings, you get more awakened, enabling you through production or cities to grab yet more stuff, et al.
But if, due to map-generation/creative local AIs/various problems you are having trouble, the counter going down just leads to even more trouble.
Yeah, problem being it's sort of a doublewin/doublelose.
If you have plenty of resources/hammers invested into the right buildings, you get more awakened, enabling you through production or cities to grab yet more stuff, et al.
But if, due to map-generation/creative local AIs/various problems you are having trouble, the counter going down just leads to even more trouble.
On Valkrionn's pont, I was thinking about it more and I agree. In a broad sense (and admitting I'm far from mastering this civ, as a bit of a latecomer to FF) the scions seem more dependant on war for optimal power than some of my other favorites. For example, as the Lanun I really am dependant on the commerce advanatage to build over time, and if things go really well (no invasions) I do much better than as the Scions (though if things go badly, worse). But as the Scions you are much more able to defend yourself, with great production and Koriana as a solid early game hero. And the same advanatages do allow you to go to war earlier, and legates increase the attractivness of war. I think I'll try to play a bit more aggressivly next time.
Sub-par unit by unit yes, but not when you consider how the Scion's high production allows you to spam them. That was actually one of the reasons for the HBs attack penalty, months ago.
It looks like the best way to keep animals from being converted to Reborn by Legates, etc., is via a python function replacing the current Convert tag.
If such a function is made perhaps some other changes could be made as well...
Convert-odds partially based on promotions.
Make sure it's only living units that are converted. No animals.
Lower chances for Goblins, Orcs and other "undesirables."
Converted units are sometimes converted to something other than a Reborn. (Maybe Warriors, maybe just a straight ownership change... or something else?)
Civ, tech, civic modifiers?
EDIT: Here's what I've got so far:
Tested by setting the "Turn roll" to 1.
Doesn't work on Animals or anything not Alive.
Base chance is 7 + 2 * Priest-type unit's level. (So Legates need to be 4th level to have the same chance as they do now against non-barbarians, but even level 1 Legates have an 9% chance.)
Doomsayers and Doomgivers get a +5
Barbarians have a -5 modifier. (A 4th level Legate will have a 10% chance.)
Command increases odds of getting a unit by 3/promo removes the chance to get a combat unit rather than Reborn. (To prevent getting multiple units.)
I'm looking for numbers that make it quite a bit harder to earn that city made up entirely of Gifted Goblins. OTOH I don't want to hear about Valk. creating a continent spanning metropolis entirely with Doomsayers.
If the base chance checks out there's a 30% chance a combat unit is created rather than a reborn. For barbarians that's 70%.
The combat unit will be an Archer or a Velite if the target was UNITCOMBAT_ARCHER or UNITCOMBAT_RECON respectively. Otherwise it'll be an undead Centeni (no Unreliable, no Chosen.)
Presently an out-of-the-box 1st level Legate has a 15% chance of making a defeated Goblin into a Reborn. Using the numbers above that's a ~1% chance, and a ~3% chance of getting a Velite. For a 4th level Legate that'd be 3% and 6%. Against a civ's Scout that 4th level Legate would have 10% Reborn/5% Velite odds.
The population reduction section is there at the beginning because Doomgivers won't be calling postCombatReducePopulation anymore.
The chance to create combat units rather than reborn is interesting, but as currently described I'm not sure its a useful result. Getting a low tier unit is probably just going to lead to my disbanding it, as I probably have some buildings or civics that allow the ones produced to start with some xp, and after the begining of the game, at a higher unit, so less gold wasted upgrading. And considering when one starts putting a significant number of legates into the field, I'm not sure its ever going to be that useful.
Why not just keep the combat unit result as bringing the unit under your control, complete with its statistics and promotions, as per normal command? I once played a game and got lucky with my command legates, and converted a couple of clan of embers spearmen as I conquored their city. There was something fun about garrisoning their conquored cities with their former warriors, now enlightened enough to realize where there true allegiances should be.
All in all, certainly these changes weaken the scions significantly, but seems like a very good idea. At a certain point legates/doomsayers were dramatically outshining awakening and temple of reborn mechanics. Though perhaps scions might now need something of a boost in these methods to keep up.
That's sort-of what the final (well, uploaded) version does: Command promotions increase the odds of getting a Reborn and also shut-down the creation of combat units. (So you get a Reborn, the turned unit, or occasionally both. But never two combat units.)
As soon as you get Command I you'll stop getting Archers, Warriors, and Velites. So, for the most part, only the basic priest unit - Legates - will get the basic combat units.
I once played a game and got lucky with my command legates,
(Doomsayers rather than Legates, yes? Command requires Chan. II. Or maybe it wasn't always so...)
I didn't duplicate Command because I thought that might be too powerful. The Scions can already spam the basic units, so I don't see allowing them access to more of the same as much of an ability - you'd probably rather have a Reborn. Taking another civ's unit, OTOH, possibly a UU or an experienced unit, might be better than getting a Reborn. And I am trying to weaken the Priests.
The new barbarian/animal system made Legates esp. far more valuable than they had been. When I found myself wanting to set up protected "Barbarian Reservations" I figured it was time to change things.
It'll be interesting to see how much of a change this really is. It may be more a deceleration of Reborn harvesting than a reduction.
Though perhaps scions might now need something of a boost in these methods to keep up.
Yep. We'll see. Any specific ideas where? Maybe I can even build something into the current function so that people can easily mess around with the numbers.
Venerate the Emperor
Repeatable
Your people revere the Emperor. Increases chance of Awakened spawning by x% for y turns.
Low cost, low increase. Fairly inefficient. Perfect for those low pop cities that otherwise will just spam Centeni or Legates. Inferior to simply building Awakened/Reborn where you can.
Celebrate the Gift.
Repeatable.
Your people celebrate being free of the burdens of the living. Dispirited citizens of other empires seek to join us.
You can get free Reborn in cities with a Cathedral. Numbers dependent on how many CoR's you have, how many unhappy people in other empires, and how much Celebration is currently in effect.
That makes sense, sorry I misunderstood the nature of the change. And also for overusing the term legate for all 3 kinds, you're right of course about command.
I very much like the feel of making your empire a place people would like to join as the method of gaining population (luxuries and certain buildings to attract awakening, reducing the cost of reborn). I also like the shift in focus from awakening to reborn as time goes on (and glad that your changes help preserve this - otherwise the legate/doomsayer mechanic was interupting this balance rather than supplmenting it). I'd say impacting the reborn production seems the best way for a bit of a boost, given the timeframe of the priests coming around.
Along these lines, here are a few ideas:
- A boost to reborn production (if this is possible?) from amount of trade going on in the city. A center of trade in Erebus attracts many more people who wish to take the gift. Fits with the trade theme to the Scions. Perhaps requires patrian bazaar to enable, or in some other way interacts with this building.
- Expand the number of luxury recources that impact reborn and/or awakening, though perhaps at a very small effect (2% increase in reborn production, or 0.25 increase for awakening, or something along those lines). It is very fun to try to work trade and conquest to aquire luxuries for your people, and I'm moderatly saddened when this phase ends and they are mosts aquired.
- Perhaps even food recources, or perhaps health in general, should have some small effect on reborn production, on the rationale that it would allow a larger underclass of alive citizens to exist within the cities, offering a larger pool to be reborn. As it currently stands 'unhealthy discontent' usually does not stop me from letting my cities descend into cesspools, which should not be good for the underclass and reborn (or at least not offer a bonus).
- Perhaps cultural level of the city might have some effect on reborn production (or awakening, though the ability to have alot of effect on your culture seems more in synch timewise with reborn production). Fits with the theme for same reasons, and would be really fun to have this incentive to strengthen the culture, spread word of Patria and the gift, etc...or perhaps as an alternative mechanic, create a function whereby a reborn is spawned whenever a city attains a certain cultural level (high ones probably).
Just thinking outloud, some of these are probably bad ideas on further thought...
I think perhaps rituals are not a good idea for this issue - for one thing, alcinius will be a huge factor on the economics of conducting them. For example, because of his boost it might be effficient to have your smallest city devote itself to the ritual, relying on his production boost, while your others do useful stuff. Thus they may just turn into incentives to have two crap cities to run the rituals over and over again. Not to mention powering up racing the knowledge of the ether to get him in the first place. Further, and more fundamentally (as perhaps he could be disabled to have this effect on them), there is already production based mechanics in place for both reborn and awakening. I think its best to work within them, rather than open up a totally new one in need of balancing.
I like some of Tim's ideas far more than the rituals.
I too, love the luxury resource requirements - gives me a reason to go out and try to pluck them from other civs, and gives me a vastly different reason for waring with the Scions than playing any other civilization.
I would LOVE to see it if trade routes and commerce from FOREIGN civs only boosted Reborn rates. This is 1) interesting in flavor and 2) offsets the conquering mindset of the need for resources. It supports a Scion civ who is a happy, if undead and creepy, member of the world community of Erebus. I could even see points where I would want to step in and defend my best trading partner from an enemy attack if this were the case, which is something very unique and cool in Fall Further if it was done.
Aside from Foreign Trade, the incentives for Culture and health are neat too, but not as important to the flavor of the Scions as the two above. I especially LOVE the foreign trade mechanic for giving me a reason to have friendly neighbors and not try to mow them down for Reborn out of razed cities.
Had the AI do this in a recent game... They were up to fanaticism, but had nothing but hordes upon hordes of legates. Was... Interesting. Especially when I found out that the Red Lady is unkillable. Even though her immortality is only supposed to apply after a wait period, it didn't quite work out that way. Killed her with my Coatlin 5 times a turn . In the end, she actually retreated out of the capital, and I took it out from under her.
Edit: Agreed, a boost from foreign trade would be a perfect balance against using the Scion's high production to take all the resources you want.
Had the AI do this in a recent game... They were up to fanaticism, but had nothing but hordes upon hordes of legates. Was... Interesting. Especially when I found out that the Red Lady is unkillable. Even though her immortality is only supposed to apply after a wait period,
She's supposed to be Immortal even during the wait - just injured. Maybe after I'm *sure* the AI won't get her killed during the wait period I'll change that.
I've been thinking about adjusting her strength though (down) and, due to the last-city issue, increase her withdraw. (Hmm... or maybe make her not-Immortal for just 1 turn...)
Edit: Agreed, a boost from foreign trade would be a perfect balance against using the Scion's high production to take all the resources you want.
I'd like to do that - have trade affect Reborn/Awakened more direclty. In addition to the other (good) ideas:
Some sort of boost to Reborn for trading away Patrian Artifacts. Open Borders lower costs.
But I don't know how, or if it'd be practical, code-wise. OTOH, that's *exactly* what I thought about the land-area issue until very recently.
What I can do will most likely determine what ideas get implemented.
And, yeah, having the "Foreign Trade" civic help *is* quite possible. That didn't occur to me until reading this last group of posts. Maybe have (renamed) "True Pilgrims" require Foreign Trade rather than God King?
EDIT: And maybe I'll make "Unhealthy Discontent" a nastier.
(Are you aware that a Scion city is -1 hammer for each Unhealth?)
No - I didn't realize about the production penalty from health. I'll have to watch that. Then I think it probably hits you with enough of a penalty (the same amount of penalty other civs suffer, though in production instead of food)
I'm not certain working through the foreign trade civic will actually have much effect - fairly often you'll be running it regardless of any effect on reborn, so it would boost the civ but not really add a new fun way to foster reborn.
Though I definitally understand you are constrained by what you can code. Still, it would be really nice if there was some way the volume of foreign trade had an effect. I think Ryhes and Fall of Civilization mod is set up so that amount of foreign trade effects stability (or maybe its just traded recources, I'm not sure). Perhaps looking at how it does this might show a way? I know nothing about modding though...
Edit - On reducing Koriana's strength, perhaps it would be best if you do so to offer a way to regain this strength as you go through the tech tree (like currently with fanatasism) - I always hate it when heroes become completely overshadowed by others, and especially with how koriana is tied to the scions, it would be nice for her to maintain a role throughout the game. Currently she does this quite well.
At the very least, I would recommend making her mortal for at least the turn she was killed on. Lets you finish her off if the Scions are already losing, rather than having to draw her out or hope she withdraws.
If True Pilgrims required Foreign Trade, noone would be building Reborn.
Yah, I think it needs to stay godking to stress the transition between awakening and reborn and the empire develops (or the choice between focusing on the two).
Sidenote - Korinna's strength is fine, the fact that she disobeys every other immortal units death rule is not. She needs to be mortal for at least a turn or two. Maybe a promotion that last two turns, degrades to recovering that lasts eight? If the AI gets Korinna killed in the two turns that she died the last time from and went to the AIs capital, it's under seige deep in it's empire anyways.
None of the other immortal units stay alive like that, the AI seems to be fine without them.
As a sidenote, is the Risen Emperor immortal? If not, compared to Korinna, he's pretty unimpressive. Got him in a game I'm running and I was more excited about the boost from the Empty Mausoleum than the emperor. OTOH I had undead Valin Phanuel riding a Nightmare....
This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
. In the end, she actually retreated out of the capital, and I took it out from under her.
