Scouting/Exploring

[Remmert]

I think it would be good to upgrade a scout to an explorer, hopefully with 1 sight and movement and available in late medival/early renaicance.
Mounted units are nice for exploring, but they have terrain costs, like hills, forrest and passing rivers.
And exporer units would benefit a lot on archipelago maps

 

[Ajuga]

Actually, scouts just need to have the promotion that slingers have, just not keep it when they are promoted to archers.
That way the remain useful pretty much the entire game as in later stages you can get them with 2 free promotions.

 

[aluelkdf]

Also, allow submarines to enter foreign waters without requiring open borders.

Submarines should definitley be allowed to enter another civ's territory without open borders. But if they discover you with a destroyer or sub of their own, then there should be diplomatic consequences. It should say something like, "we caught you tresspassing in our territory".

I think it should work the same way as when you tresspass on a city state's land. You are not required to leave right away, but the longer you stay the more mad the other civ gets at you. It may not necesaraly start a war. And if you are on good terms already it may not be a big deal. But if they already don't like you then they may decide to declare war the moment they catch you trespassing. It all depends what the situation is.

 

[GIO888]

Bring back the explorer.

With a bigger plume in his helmet.

ooer madam.

 

[Txurce]

I agree whole-heartedly. I've even had the idea to have a wholeline of scouts which would include paratroopers as the end of the promotion line. Scouts need a few upgrades.

This line already exists. It's called the Vanguard class, and it's part of the VE super-mod.

 

[KillingMeSoftly]

A renaissance-era Explorer unit would be nice. Though horsemen function fairly well as scouts with their 4 movement. Only issue is requiring a strategic resource.

Also agreed that Submarines should be able to enter territorial waters without Open Borders.

 

[wobuffet]

I agree whole-heartedly. I've even had the idea to have a wholeline of scouts which would include paratroopers as the end of the promotion line. Scouts need a few upgrades.

Honestly? I'd settle for letting the scout upgrade into something.

Enter the Vanguard class of Thal's Vanilla Enhanced Mod (VEM):
Scout -> Levy -> Skirmisher -> Light Infantry -> Airborne (rename of Paratrooper)

Vanguard units are cheaper than other units and earn promotions that (1) only improve defensive strength, (2) help heal other units (only Vanguard units can get the Medic promotion in VEM), and/or (3) increase speed/number of moves.

 

[Buccaneer]

This line already exists. It's called the Vanguard class, and it's part of the VE super-mod.

But that's not in a real game.

Scout -> Levy -> Skirmisher -> Light Infantry -> Airborne (rename of Paratrooper)

I can't imagine the AI using this line effectively, yet more bonuses to the human player.

 

[Txurce]

But that's not in a real game.

It's more interesting and harder than vanilla, but since it's also free, it may well not be a real game in your mind.

I can't imagine the AI using this line effectively, yet more bonuses to the human player.

I believe that you can't imagine it, but in reality you're wrong. The Vanguard line includes the scouts, but its later units' primary purpose is not scouting. They effectively become the bread and butter of your pre-rifles army (and maybe beyond).

The AI builds a lot of them because they're cheap. In VE, they come highly promoted for the AI at the more difficult levels. And because they're hard to kill, the AI benefits much more from them than the human player (who doesn't need to resort to cannon fodder).

 

[Buccaneer]

Fair enough.

 

[BuilderFTW]

The bonus to scouts is somewhat emulated by the promotions you get on them. When you first build them, they have 2 moves, 2 sight, 4 strength. But if you build a scout later with a barracks, and armory you can get promotions which give it +1 sight, +1 movement, +50% defense +1 healing etc. I believe these promotions simulate the improvement of scouts over time. Besides in the majority of my games, by the time scouts are obsolete, the whole map is scouted, or free of barbarians, so I don't really see the need of a new unit.

 

[gunnergoz]

Ideally, the scout should never fight if confronted, but seek to escape. So the scout in my mind should be optimized to travel over rough terrain, see far, avoid combat by retreating if possible. When upgraded over time and with experience, you can tweak mobility, viewing range, likelihood to retreat successfully, add ability to pillage, then add bonuses for pillaging, etc.
The big mistake IMO is to give the scout any sort of offensive capability in the early game. That is not the scout's main purpose, no matter what era it operates in. The scout's original job is to explore and report back.
Later iterations of the scout (e.g. "mechanized recon" or "armored cavalry" could also have some limited ability to attack, defend or delay, but never at the strength of your main force armored or mechanized units. In the offense they would be harassment units, not breakthrough forces.

 

[aluelkdf]

Ideally, the scout should never fight if confronted, but seek to escape. So the scout in my mind should be optimized to travel over rough terrain, see far, avoid combat by retreating if possible. When upgraded over time and with experience, you can tweak mobility, viewing range, likelihood to retreat successfully, add ability to pillage, then add bonuses for pillaging, etc.
The big mistake IMO is to give the scout any sort of offensive capability in the early game. That is not the scout's main purpose, no matter what era it operates in. The scout's original job is to explore and report back.
Later iterations of the scout (e.g. "mechanized recon" or "armored cavalry" could also have some limited ability to attack, defend or delay, but never at the strength of your main force armored or mechanized units. In the offense they would be harassment units, not breakthrough forces.

I agree with this, a scout's main function is recon not combat. In the very early game it should be very dangerous for scouts to explore, 99% of the land is iinhabited by barbarians and if a scout sees one they should try to get away, and in a worse cae scenario have limited defense capabilities.

But as scouts progress their combat ability should increase, (though a scout's combat capabilites should never be comprobale to a military unit of the same era. But if a renaissance era scout discovers a barbarian camp procted by 2 or 3 warriors, the renaissance scout should be able to kill the warriors and destroy the camp for money. But if the renaissance scout is confronted by longswordsmen it would be in big trouble.

 

[jjkrause84]

I'd be happy with simple map trading!

 

[Securion]

I'd be happy with simple map trading!

This.

 

[Buccaneer]

What's so hard about using scouts and ships to explore that makes you feel you want map trading?!? Exploration into unknown territory is one of the great things about Civilization and you would want to shortcut that?

 

[AriochIV]

Scouts and Caravels work fine for exploring the map, but scouting is also useful in tactical combat, to see what the enemy is doing. Scouts are practically worthless for combat reconaissance even as early as the Classical era, because they're just too easy to kill. Horsemen can be used for recon, but they're really only good at it if you can get them the +Sight promotion, which takes two level-ups (which is easier said than done, given how hard mounted units are to keep alive in combat). And once Chivalry makes Horsemen obsolete, there are not many options for recon units.

We know now that there won't be a new Explorer unit in G&K, but it would be nice if they shuffled the promotions and upgrades around to support mounted recon. The extra sight promotion (and other Scout promotions) should be available in the first tier for Horsemen, Lancers and Cavalry. Horsemen should have the option to upgrade to Lancers as well as Knights. And it would be nice if a modern unit (such as Paratroopers) also had immediate access to Scout promotions.

 

[gunnergoz]

Whoward69 made a scout unit mod for me that you guys can try out if you like:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=463216
In it the scout basically retreats when attacked and has no attack value; can be later upgraded to mounted scout, then motorized scout.
I'm probably going to ask him to alter it to give the scout a minimal attack value so the scout can be a "mop up" unit to attack wounded enemies, so the scout can build up some XP.

 

[headcase]

One day I'd like to see the whole line from VEM in the official game: I think it goes scout, levy, skirmisher, light infantry, airborne (which has paratrooper ability), from the start of the game to the end.

Also the promotion trees are quite nice there. Scouting I and II are almost the same, then from Scouting II you can go straight to March. Scouting III and IV are gone, presumably those would be a little too powerful for the later units.

It's good that Firaxis tried not to go crazy with the number of units, but I like scouts.

 

[Bridger]

What about the Levy? Isn't everybody playing with VEM?