Scouts and Explorers becoming Diplomatic Units

[tu_79]

1. I really think the scout doesn't need more CS if we really can use any of the above methods to keep it out of trouble. Currently, some players are able to keep it safe from barbs just by being a fast unit, not expending all its movement so it can retreat just in case. More sight is already going to give the scout more chances to stay out of trouble. Any of the 'avoid fighting' methods will make it survive better, even facing a lonely knight (but not against two). It could even be used in a flank for watching enemy location. If the enemy try to get rid of our scout, it just will retreat behind friendly lines. It's all it needs before upgrading.
If a majority prefers more strength, so be it. It will achieve one point (surviving better) but might risk failing another (not turning into tanking). Or it could just work well if inelegantly, as it seems to be the criticism.
So before giving the scout more strength, why not try it with the evasion promotions (which serves the purpose) and see later if it actually needs more strength.

2. CrazyG explained why scouts starting later is not a good idea, but I'd add that not having scouts at turn 0 will change the game too drastically. Many things are balanced with those turn 0 things in mind. It would be completely useless in smaller maps. Not having to disband the scout in classical era is not a drastic change as I see it.

3. We can't agree because there are many options actually, many of them would work. In the case of scout movement, we are used to the current mechanic even if it is weird and unrealistic, and we can play and live with it. I think it would be better if just one of the fast travel mechanics is allowed (no terrain cost or double movement in terrain type). I would support any proposal that leaves just one of them, even if I like a bit better the double movement for it has trade-offs. Also, any change needs the approval of Gazebo, since he's the one doing the hard work, and knows better what can and can't be done. That's why his word carry weight. In the case of no clear direction, by default we stay the same.

4. Polls aren't too realistic. Only a few people follow the discussion, and even fewer take active part. And not all of them participate in polls. In any game design, the developers make the game they want to play (or they think will sell better) and if other players like it, it becomes popular. The quality of any game is a result of the hours put into it by both developers and testers, but the success has no thumb rule to achieve. Even for us players it's difficult to know in advance if a mechanic is going to be liked. Many times I started a game, thinking I would love it but somehow I just can't like it (Hello Panzer General). I think it's the same here. I think now that a slippery scout is enough and that it would be more fun than what we have currently, but I might be wrong and dislike my proposals once I play with them. It could be that we choose a model that we might like, but turns out too annoying for the rest of players. Being high level players most of you is a bias, actually, since you forget most of the time what it is like to be a rookie not knowing exactly how to play, or taking the game more casually.

5. Repeating the same ideas by the same players may give the impression that it has more support, which is even worse than polls.

 

[Gazebo]

Alright, hear me out.

To avoid the weirdness of CS bumps for scouts AND to avoid the weirdness of scouts being unable to attack/cs etc., what if we do this:

1.) Give Comanche riders back to Shoshone, give Shoshone units ability to pick goodies for all melee units.
2.) Turn Pathfinder into ancient scout, turn scout into classical scout.
3.) Implement ElliotS's tweaks as follows.

Pathfinder:

1. Penalty to attacking non-barbarians, -33%, lost with upgrade.
2. 2 Sight base
​

Scout:

1. Penalty to attacking non-barbarians, -25%.
2. 3 sight base
3. Unlocks at Sailing(?)

Explorer:

1. Sight 3 base
2. Embark Oceans immediately
3. Unlocks at Compass(?)

G

 

[Txurce]

[QUOTE="Gazebo, post: 14759405, member: 191587"Turn Pathfinder into ancient scout, turn scout into classical scout.[/QUOTE]

Early exploring is by far the favorite part of the game for all Civ players, from the earliest iterations of Civ on. If by this, you mean that all civs except the Shoshone don't start scouting until the Classical era, then you are majorly messing with the game's experience. I'm assuming you think it's such a great idea that disrupting Civ's historic game flow is worth it. Would you elaborate on your reasoning?

 

[CrazyG]

Alright, hear me out.

To avoid the weirdness of CS bumps for scouts AND to avoid the weirdness of scouts being unable to attack/cs etc., what if we do this:

1.) Give Comanche riders back to Shoshone, give Shoshone units ability to pick goodies for all melee units.
2.) Turn Pathfinder into ancient scout, turn scout into classical scout.
3.) Implement ElliotS's tweaks as follows.

Pathfinder:

1. Penalty to attacking non-barbarians, -33%, lost with upgrade.
2. 2 Sight base
​

Scout:

1. Penalty to attacking non-barbarians, -25%.
2. 3 sight base
3. Unlocks at Sailing(?)

Explorer:

1. Sight 3 base
2. Embark Oceans immediately
3. Unlocks at Compass(?)

G

I really wish we didn't have to change Shoshone to do this, but otherwise I think its a great proposal.

 

[CrazyG]

Eearly exploring is by far the favorite part of the game for all Civ players, from the earliest iterations of Civ on. If by this, you mean that all civs except the Shoshone don't start scouting until the Classical era, then you are majorly messing with the game's experience. I'm assuming you think it's such a great idea that disrupting Civ's historic game flow is worth it. Would you elaborate on your reasoning?

I think he means everyone gets pathfinders, and the reasoning is we lack a unit image for another early scout-style unit

 

[Aldebaran1997]

If I am one of those guys, I'll try to be less aggressive and explain my point of view. The name of the mod is voice of the people, I make no decision because its not my decision to make. I only try to advocate what I think will improve the game, and advocate against changes I think will cause problems.

I think its very important for scouts to available early on turn 1. Scouts do get built early on, as that is the best time to explore and pursue ruins. If I begin in dense forest or jungle its important that I can build a scout, otherwise I'm very slow to explore the world. I will find fewer ruins and CS (which means the guy who began on more open terrain gets even more). In really dense terrain I will build a scout to be a warrior, because often the faster movement is more valuable than the extra 1 CS. Moving scouts later in the tech tree will often make a bad start even worse, which I am going to advocate against. It also seems to me this will cause scouts to be built much less often, which I also dislike

By the time sailing comes around I will usually have access to horsemen, if I can build a horse I will usually build him instead of a scout. Not only that, but by this point many cities are settled, reducing the area a scout can explore before he gets trapped or enemy lands block me. I think that moving him to sailing causes more problems than it solves. Now putting a 9 CS unit that upgrades from a scout at sailing is a pretty good idea, but it cannot be done without the 3D model. If someone find or makes that model, I'm all for it.


Its not the biggest deal in the world, but I find it lame to delete a unit with 4 promotions so early. Scouts can do some pretty cool things but currently those things aren't good ideas, I think a buff could make them more fun.

You're good enough. As you said, there are many opinions among people and they aren't always pros and cons of something. Somebody wants to change, but other possibly wants to conserve, and it won't cause problems imo. For this kind of discussion, it is important to make a point of agreement. It doesn't mean advocate their thinking permanently, but reacting someone's opinion and mediate with others.

I think later scout with being changed in a proper way will be able to be as useful as or more than turn 1 scout. I think ,as G said before, exploring is way too easy with current recons. I prefer that exploring becomes more difficult and more rewarded to every player in the game, so it gives chances and temptations to dense starting players to do something to catch up other players. I think that the real issue of recon units for exploring is both they don't accelerate exploration dramatically and exploration isn't worth and difficult enough to build multiple instances of them. So I suggest that increase or improve ruins and meeting CS rewards to make exploring better. I don't know people would like exploring becoming bigger part of the game, though. Anyway, with turn 1 scout, they can do nothing because every player other than dense starting ones can easily make scouts too. But with later scout and more rewarded exploring, they can rush to that tech to explore while other players research more attractive techs to them.

I admit that later scout will be useless on slow speed games (ex. epic , marathon), because unit's mobility isn't change while researching is way slower. But I think it's same with current turn 1 scout, because they still have to be built very slower.

This is my recon line. If you don't like this, tell me reasons would be pleased.

Scout is now available at Sailing. 2 movement, 3 sight, 9 CS. Removed "No terrain movement cost" promotion in base (moved on promotion tree). Cost increased around 60~65 prod.

Trailblazer
I. Move faster along river. No combat and movement penalty across river. (Basically same with amphibious.)
II. Doubled movement on hill, forest/jungle, desert, marsh and snow. (Combine current version's Trailblazer I and II and marsh.)
III. Can access closed border civs' territory. Can use other civs' road/railroad.

Survivability
I. +25% chance to evade melee attack. +5 heal rate out of friendly territory.
II. +25% chance to evade melee attack. +5 heal rate out of friendly territory.
III. No movement cost on pillaging tiles. Heal end of every turn.

Recon I (Trailblazer I): +1 sight.
Recon II (Recon I): +1 sight.

Medic I (Survivability I)
Medic II (Medic I)

No terrain movement cost (Trailblazer III): Same with current version but additionally grant ability of passing mountain and ice.
Guerrilla (Survivability III): Ignore ZoC. -10% CS nearby enemy. Attack occasionally make enemy to move backward. (Because of the terror of guerrilla.)

I considered not only exploration purpose, but also sabotaging or spec ops purpose. I will appreciate if you do so, too.

 

[Txurce]

I think he means everyone gets pathfinders, and the reasoning is we lack a unit image for another early scout-style unit

God, I hope so. And it would make the rest of it make more sense, even though, yes, I hate the idea of losing the Pathfinder. Is the problem simply needing a fresh icon?

 

[CrazyG]

God, I hope so. And it would make the rest of it make more sense, even though, yes, I hate the idea of losing the Pathfinder. Is the problem simply needing a fresh icon?

Not an icon but a 3D model with animations and stuff. If I am remembering the old scouting thread correctly no one could find one, which is how the "give it a buff at tech XYZ" idea game up, because its functionally similar to giving scouts an upgrade

 

[Gazebo]

I think he means everyone gets pathfinders, and the reasoning is we lack a unit image for another early scout-style unit

Yes, CrazyG is correct. All would get pathfinders and then scouts. This gets us around the unit art/design issue AND gives the Shoshone a buff to boot.

G

 

[Stalker0]

In terms of survivability, isn't the problem really against barbs?

instead of CS changes, couldn't you give it a 100% defense vs barbs and call it a day. It can now take a barb hit...doesn't affect tribute, doesn't make them super soldiers against other players.

On the topic of later scouts, we already have those. They are called horsemen. If you want to change the scout it has to be at turn 1, there is no point in worrying about the later game when better options are now available

 

[Aldebaran1997]

Alright, hear me out.

To avoid the weirdness of CS bumps for scouts AND to avoid the weirdness of scouts being unable to attack/cs etc., what if we do this:

1.) Give Comanche riders back to Shoshone, give Shoshone units ability to pick goodies for all melee units.
2.) Turn Pathfinder into ancient scout, turn scout into classical scout.
3.) Implement ElliotS's tweaks as follows.

Pathfinder:

1. Penalty to attacking non-barbarians, -33%, lost with upgrade.
2. 2 Sight base
​

Scout:

1. Penalty to attacking non-barbarians, -25%.
2. 3 sight base
3. Unlocks at Sailing(?)

Explorer:

1. Sight 3 base
2. Embark Oceans immediately
3. Unlocks at Compass(?)

G

Oh I didn't see it comes. Sad face.

 

[Txurce]

Yes, CrazyG is correct. All would get pathfinders and then scouts. This gets us around the unit art/design issue AND gives the Shoshone a buff to boot.

Thanks to you and CrazyG for the explanation. And yes, the Shoshone got a little buff, plus a resurrected UU. Sounds like more entertainment -- and I can breathe regularly again!

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Yes, CrazyG is correct. All would get pathfinders and then scouts. This gets us around the unit art/design issue AND gives the Shoshone a buff to boot.

G

Shoshone don't need a buff tho, their early Composite is OP (unless that was removed since I played). If Shoshone Scout/Pathfinders upgrading into Composites was gone, that'd be fine though.
Still, regular civs Pathfinders will upgrade into Archers, and Scouts into Composites? Or will Pathfinders with weapon hut upgrade into Scouts, and Scouts into Explorers?

 

[Aldebaran1997]

On the topic of later scouts, we already have those. They are called horsemen. If you want to change the scout it has to be at turn 1, there is no point in worrying about the later game when better options are now available

Well, I approve that horsemen are good at both fighting and exploring, but they aren't good at exploring enough when they are in dense terrain or meet river, and it happens quite often. Also, they use resources and their cost is much higher than scouts. If you don't think later scout is useful enough above all those conditions, then I can respect your PoV...

 

[Aldebaran1997]

Shoshone don't need a buff tho, their early Composite is OP (unless that was removed since I played). If Shoshone Scout/Pathfinders upgrading into Composites was gone, that'd be fine though.
Still, regular civs Pathfinders will upgrade into Archers, and Scouts into Composites? Or will Pathfinders with weapon hut upgrade into Scouts, and Scouts into Explorers?

Maybe the latter is correct answer. It makes sense unlike others.

 

[Gazebo]

Shoshone don't need a buff tho, their early Composite is OP (unless that was removed since I played). If Shoshone Scout/Pathfinders upgrading into Composites was gone, that'd be fine though.
Still, regular civs Pathfinders will upgrade into Archers, and Scouts into Composites? Or will Pathfinders with weapon hut upgrade into Scouts, and Scouts into Explorers?

Pathfinder -> Scout -> Explorer. The combat class switch will go away. Definitely a more sanitized unit tree.

G

 

[randomnub]

Pathfinder -> Scout -> Explorer. The combat class switch will go away. Definitely a more sanitized unit tree.

G

I like it, very elegant The pathfinder model is generic enough for an ancient unit, and overall Shoshones end in a better situation than before (I always thought exausting all the uniques of a civ 3 techs into ancient era made them a lil boring, albeit strong).

Edit: Upgrades available at Sailing and Compass sound cool as well.

 

[ElliotS]

Alright, hear me out.

To avoid the weirdness of CS bumps for scouts AND to avoid the weirdness of scouts being unable to attack/cs etc., what if we do this:

1.) Give Comanche riders back to Shoshone, give Shoshone units ability to pick goodies for all melee units.
2.) Turn Pathfinder into ancient scout, turn scout into classical scout.
3.) Implement ElliotS's tweaks as follows.

Pathfinder:

1. Penalty to attacking non-barbarians, -33%, lost with upgrade.
2. 2 Sight base
​

Scout:

1. Penalty to attacking non-barbarians, -25%.
2. 3 sight base
3. Unlocks at Sailing(?)

Explorer:

1. Sight 3 base
2. Embark Oceans immediately
3. Unlocks at Compass(?)

G

I really like this idea. A few thoughts:

1. I think the right is 12. With a -25% to attacking civs + no offensive promotions they'll still lose to every melee unit and stalemate with comp. bowmen, but I don't think they'll be 1 shotable at any point.
2. I think sailing is the right tech.

 

[tu_79]

Scout:

1. Penalty to attacking non-barbarians, -25%.
2. 3 sight base
3. Unlocks at Sailing(?)

More sight, solves point 2, useful as recon unit later.
Could scouts get Embark for free? If a pathfinder upgrades to scout, it would be great to allow him to embark.

Pathfinder -> Scout -> Explorer

Hope this solves point 1, more survivability. (With reservations)

Silly question. What's the point of having a penalty vs non-barbarians if they aren't getting more strength (the reason I misunderstood ElliotS last time)? I almost never use my scouts to attack enemy spearsmen. Maybe a hit or two to let the scout get experience, under very controlled situations.

 

[Myrrdin_Emrys]

Just to know will a "pathfinder" finding an upgrading ruins become an archer or a scout ?