The Capo
godless Heathen
Anybody have news on any modding tools being released or why this game was touted as being more mod-friendly than Civ V?
SDK?
- Thread starter The Capo
- Start date
No news about the SDK.
In some interview some powerful tools to make units, leaderheads and general art were mentioned.
That, MP support and the modifiers system would make civ6 "more mod-friendly than Civ V" when (if ?) the tools are released.
But on the other hands, there are a lot of functions related to gameplay that were available in civ5 that are missing in the actual code.
For example, there is no way (that I've found) using Lua scripts to
- control AI units
- prevent diplomacy action (like declaring war)
- control what can be produced by players/cities
In some interview some powerful tools to make units, leaderheads and general art were mentioned.
That, MP support and the modifiers system would make civ6 "more mod-friendly than Civ V" when (if ?) the tools are released.
But on the other hands, there are a lot of functions related to gameplay that were available in civ5 that are missing in the actual code.
For example, there is no way (that I've found) using Lua scripts to
- control AI units
- prevent diplomacy action (like declaring war)
- control what can be produced by players/cities
Craig_Sutter
Deity
I quite like the modifier system, however. I am really enjoying getting into it's intricacies.
Civ5 was touted as the most moddable Civ game ever before release, and it took them years to release the SDK - so long in fact, that a majority of players interested in modding the game had already moved on (or back to Civ4).
Incidentally, Civ6 was also touted as the most moddable Civ game ever - and yet it somehow launched without SteamWorks support, which doesn't exactly inspire hope. The modding tools are bound to take a while, and whether or not (or when, if so) we're ever going to get and SDK remains to be seen...
As the saying goes, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.".
Incidentally, Civ6 was also touted as the most moddable Civ game ever - and yet it somehow launched without SteamWorks support, which doesn't exactly inspire hope. The modding tools are bound to take a while, and whether or not (or when, if so) we're ever going to get and SDK remains to be seen...
As the saying goes, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.".
Nutty
Deity
.
The Civ4 SDK tools also included the game DLL C++ source code, and was released after 6 months. The Civ5 SDK (i.e., just the modding tools without the DLL source) were out a week after launch, so this delay for the equivalent for Civ6 is certainly disappointing. But yes, it took 2 years after launch for Firaxis to release the Civ5 game DLL C++ source code.
This old trope. It depends on your point of view. Yes, it was a different kind of "moddable" than the earlier Civ iterations. There was more of a learning curve for the modders themselves, but you'll have to admit that it was much easier to consume mods from the average user's point of view (even given the issues with the original Gamespy mod browser and the painful initial implementation of the Steam Workshop one). There were/are lots of Civ5 modders and lots of mods, but, yes, the scope tends to be narrower--partly this is a good thing, because compatibility between mods was somewhat easier to achieve (especially after the pre-G+K patches), so each user could create their own perfect CiV from various components. However, yes, the fact that the community had to develop the tools that actually allowed them to work with the Granny 3D art effectively, and the nigh-impossiblity of a lot of terrain modding slowed down development of the type of grand scale total conversions that arose for Civ4. But unlike Civ5 they kind of HAD to be total conversions or you'd likely end up with conflicts.
Civ6 aspires to continue the Civ5 flexible style of moddability. There are some very nice design decisions to make modding even more flexible than Civ5, but a lot of the elements that had to filter in slowly to eventually make Civ5 more moddable should have been lessons learned... that apparently weren't.
So are you basically agreeing or disagreeing with what I say? 
On one hand, you write it's and old trope yet on the other hand you seem kinda inclined to agree with most of my statement's implications.
When all is said and done, I think the two of us have mostly the same opinion and only disagree in particulars.
Anyway, what I wrote was strictly the facts - it took ages for the SDK to arrive (Firaxis kept promising "soon" for - as you wrote - 2 years) - and a majority of modders had moved on when it finally did. New rookies moved in to fill the ranks, but imo, the Civ5 modding scene is, to this very day, a pale shadow of the Civ4 modding scene.
I agree that the whole modding structure ought to have made modding a lot easier - especially "composite modding" as you describe it - and for some things it indeed did - but alas they didn't think things through and many aspects of the game were difficult to mod at all - models being the prime example. (From what I gather Civ6's approach to modding has similar critical flaws...)
Whether or not this was primarily done to make sure their DLCs would sell is anyone's guess. I would not even really have a problem with this attitude, I only wish they'd be a little more honest about it. If you're not even going to ship with Steam Workshop support, fine, but don't advertise the most moddable Civ ever - is that so much to ask?
On one hand, you write it's and old trope yet on the other hand you seem kinda inclined to agree with most of my statement's implications.
When all is said and done, I think the two of us have mostly the same opinion and only disagree in particulars.
Anyway, what I wrote was strictly the facts - it took ages for the SDK to arrive (Firaxis kept promising "soon" for - as you wrote - 2 years) - and a majority of modders had moved on when it finally did. New rookies moved in to fill the ranks, but imo, the Civ5 modding scene is, to this very day, a pale shadow of the Civ4 modding scene.
I agree that the whole modding structure ought to have made modding a lot easier - especially "composite modding" as you describe it - and for some things it indeed did - but alas they didn't think things through and many aspects of the game were difficult to mod at all - models being the prime example. (From what I gather Civ6's approach to modding has similar critical flaws...)
Whether or not this was primarily done to make sure their DLCs would sell is anyone's guess. I would not even really have a problem with this attitude, I only wish they'd be a little more honest about it. If you're not even going to ship with Steam Workshop support, fine, but don't advertise the most moddable Civ ever - is that so much to ask?
Nutty
Deity
Both, but my point was that there are multiple ways to measure moddability, and there's an argument that could be made that Civ5 (especially in its current state) is more "moddable" than Civ4. And there are some indications that Civ6 could be at least as good, using the same rubric... eventually. But, yes, I grant your point, just not the dogmatic tone.So are you basically agreeing or disagreeing with what I say?
(And yes, as Horem reiterated, SDK = "Software Development Kit," which is not a very well defined term. In general, it may include some source code, but is usually just a collection of, maybe, some tools, some libraries, some examples, and hopefully a good API documentation or at least some self-documenting header files).
Hiram
XML Plebian
I hope they release the SDK soon. I'd been looking forward to VI for a fresh start. V was massively addictive for me because of the amount of additional civs made by the community, however as the years went by it became very difficult to maintain a working mod list (many CTDs caused by mod clashes and the difficulty in diagnosing causes). Regardless, I'm back playing V now because VI is currently lacking the immersive gameplay and content that comes from mods.
VI feels like it will be even better with mods than V in some respects (not needing a dll mod to change the max number of civs on map for one), but we need the SDK to get there.
VI feels like it will be even better with mods than V in some respects (not needing a dll mod to change the max number of civs on map for one), but we need the SDK to get there.
I actually develop (boring) software for a living, so I (think I) know what a SDK is - but in the world of Civilization modding, it generally refers to the source access release of Civ4 and Civ5 - I'll use different terms if you prefer, but I reckon from context it was apparent what I meant. Sorry for the confusion.
Well, in the bottom line, all that counts is what you can achieve, when changing rules is easier as it used to be, but changing graphics is impossible when it used to be doable, that game is not more moddable than the other.
Since when the Civ5 sources were released, I guess you can say it's true that Civ5 is more moddable, but it took them a very very long time to get there. And still, Civ5 modding never REALLY took off in the same way Civ4 modding did.
The delay in releasing the sources was one big reason, but I think there are others as well - going into those is probably beyond the scope of this thread.
I guess I am being somewhat dogmatic about the issue, because I'm (to be honest) still bitter about some of the changes brought about the series, but I'll try not to let it spill into unrelated posts. I apologize if you were offended.
In the world of Civilization IV modding yes, "SDK" was meaning "source code"
Not in civ5, as there were multiple tools in the SDK (some working, some not) and the source was released (much) later.
The Capo
godless Heathen
Having much less experience with more of the technical aspects of modding (writing code for example), i used SDK as a blanket term. I was basically talking about source code "tools" (if that makes sense, although it seems some of you guys are figuring that out), a way to unpack/decompress the art files, and the format i would need to use to modify/create graphics (since thats my area of interest). Basically i want to start making units, leaders, buildings, etc. So i can make the work of you coders out there seamless/pretty.
ww2commander
Emperor
What little patience and excitement I had left for modding has long fizzled out. Can't be bothered waiting at this point with this iteration.
I check the forums infrequently but it seems not many ground-breaking discoveries are happening in modding community or SDK.
I check the forums infrequently but it seems not many ground-breaking discoveries are happening in modding community or SDK.
In my many years of modding different games I've come to the conclusion that a "moddable" game as defined by a developer doesn't really mean much. Many of the best mods I played or help create were on games with no official mod support and sometimes it feels like mod support just enforces more limitations for us to find creative ways to get around. Expansions, and later DLC, have made modding more difficult as well since for a modder they usually mean more DRM hurdles and in the case of an expansion they may require almost the same amount of work as moving to a sequel.
And yet I still eagerly away the SDK, I'll never learn
And yet I still eagerly away the SDK, I'll never learn
The Capo
godless Heathen
I just want to start making units and leaders, once we can open that BLP (?) File up I will be able to do it... hopefully.
I am actually waiting for an "In-Game Editor" as the one that existed in CIV5. I have no idea about the differences of SDK and Source code, I only know by reading this thread that source code will come much later (if it releases) than SDK. My question is, is someone is going to make an In-game editor, will he need the SDK or the Source code? Is it realistic to hope for an editor or not?
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