SE + Warmongering questions.

[Earthling]

:

If you're running scientists, you're cutting into a whip cycle or taking citizens off mines. There isn't a magic economy. You're not going to see a drastic improvement by going with "SE" (a convoluted term) unless you are otherwise overbuilding cottage improvements in war games.

With that being said, spec cities convert into more rapidly, but with planning ahead on which cities will produce units the difference in hammer potential isn't anywhere NEAR what "SE" (again, ridiculous terminology that means different things even within this thread) advocates imply.

Frankly, for struggling with warmongering on noble it's probably way too soon to start thinking about overarching "economies". Specialize on a per-city basis, improve tile micro, tech priority, and diplomacy (to avoid dogpiles), and go from there. The vast majority of your cities are going to be hammer cities for early conquest.

All QFT too. At this point I don't know why I'm always agreeing with TMIT so much... kinda spooky. At any rate, my further advice on military:

Whipping is also overrated, particulary if you don't have a good reason for it. I know it doesn't sound like it's very solid but I can advise to avoid whipping in general unless you really know what you're doing. It's good around the axe stage, and alright of course if you desperately need units; after that whipping can be very costly to your population, and in the long run it's often even less production. Most importantly, though, it's a short window that players often try to extend by going overaggressive on the whip.

Once you can draft, you should almost never whip units again. Just no, don't even consider it as a strategy, not even in peacetime. Natural disclaimer though - there are a few exceptions to be clear - if you're not running another civic, sure, whip captured city pop that would starve, or maybe if you really, really need a ship or something crazy. And of course if you're still running slavery and need buildings in new cities that's alright, but whipping is a much worse conversion than drafting. I just can't say how many times I see players still whipping when they shouldn't be - even without Globe Theatre still cycle the draft through your cities instead.

Lastly, late game there's a choice for production that far beats out anything CE or SE as most players understand them. Workshops (SP + Caste) are basically overpowered and you should build them wherever you need production - I usually find myself building them in almost every captured city, pretty much over anything that isn't a resource/village/town. Workshopping over farms also gives more production than engineers or any other specialists will.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Other ridiculous later options include the KREMLIN whip + sushi + draft non-siege, and mining inc...which snowballs something crazy as you get more of its resources.

SP + Workshops set up very, very quickly though and make intercontinental stuff less complex. I notice I tend to use corps when I'm mostly 1 land-mass and can't hit yet anyway.

 

[Razzlesnaff]

So I did a few more games all as Napoleon including the Nobles Club game. I'm noticing that with virtually every city of mine is incredibly unhealthy even with lots of buildings and most of my cities are stagnant and not working enough tiles. Anyone know why this is?

Also I feel my problem is that I focus on making my cities optimal (including pumping out wonders.) before producing units which doesn't help my war effort. I'm going to minimize the amount of wonders I build and focus more on gigantic armies to take over the world.

Also TMIT, I loved your Let's Play videos they were really entertaining. I hope your laptop gets better(Laptop hospital?) and I can see more of those. I learned a lot from those videos and hope to see more!

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Health can be painful but usually isn't really bad until assembly line (factories/coal plants). You want a granary of course, and try to trade for any grains you don't have. That's easy health. Next in priority is the basic aqueduct, or if you have the health resources the grocer (trade for these if need be also). If most of your cities are coastal the harbor is better/cheaper for health than the grocer but that's not too likely for ALL of your hammer heavy cities.

Still, with just granary/aqueduct and the relevant resources you're looking at 10 health, more with fresh water, and more still with other resources.

If you anticipate health being a hindrance you can pack cities a bit tighter to distribute more of the pop and keep it manageable, too.

 

[Iranon]

One thing to keep in mind is that lightbulbing depends on empire size, not on infrastructure. Since a warmonger's empire will often end up large and backwards/underdeveloped, this can be quite a blessing. Drafting allows something similar for unit production.

With food everywhere, we can have production everywhere if we need it (slavery or workshops if there are no hills). As such, we have the ability to channel our entire empire's output into research towards a military tech, then use everything we have to build an army.

I'd also like to point out that specialists are very attractive for espionage if we're inclined to use that (whether for preparing an invasion, catching up efficiently, manipulating diplomacy in our favour or general dickery).

***

Regarding Slavery, I agree and disagree with Earthling at the same time. I consider it incredibly powerful when used right (swapping high-food tiles around, quickly growing to the cap again with otherwise unusable tiles like forests/coast, then changing back to specialists/no-food tiles again)... however, not using it at all can be better than misusing it.

 

[Wodan]

I consider it incredibly powerful when used right...

That's pretty much true of all civics.

 

[popejubal]

Once you can draft, you should almost never whip units again. Just no, don't even consider it as a strategy, not even in peacetime. Natural disclaimer though - there are a few exceptions to be clear - if you're not running another civic, sure, whip captured city pop that would starve, or maybe if you really, really need a ship or something crazy. And of course if you're still running slavery and need buildings in new cities that's alright, but whipping is a much worse conversion than drafting. I just can't say how many times I see players still whipping when they shouldn't be - even without Globe Theatre still cycle the draft through your cities instead.

First, I'd like to say that I'm proud of what I wrote as an analysis of why SE is quite good in a very different way from CE (not better and not worse, just very different and useful for a different play style/strategy). I am very glad that TMIT replied to my post, though, because he and Futurehermit more clearly said the most important point of what my post was pointing toward. SE is all about having the flexibility to switch between high production (both from food -> hammers through the whip and from mines/workshops/etc.) and reasonably high science and to recover population quickly when you do need to (or draft) it off to grab some quick production.

@ Earthling, just for clarification on your post. Do you exclusively draft the draftable military units and slow build things like siege and cavalry or do you just mostly ignore the non-draftable units and go in with overwhelming draftable forces? I've honestly never gotten the hang of using the draft because the +3 is just so overwhelming.

 

[gfm]

I've honestly never gotten the hang of using the draft because the +3 is just so overwhelming.

Well you draft only non-siege units (such as Riflemen) and the first one is -free if you built a barracks in the city (+2 with Nationhood). So if you have 6 draft cities you can get away with 12 Riflemen and only +3 in only six turns ! Of course having a Globe Theater city allows you to better manage draft .

I honestly don't use it much, but when I do, the sheer number of units produced in the space of 10 turns is just terrifying !

 

[Earthling]

@ Earthling, just for clarification on your post. Do you exclusively draft the draftable military units and slow build things like siege and cavalry or do you just mostly ignore the non-draftable units and go in with overwhelming draftable forces? I've honestly never gotten the hang of using the draft because the +3 is just so overwhelming.

TBH, since I don't run pure SE much at all, I find myself rush-buying. So, rush-buy support units and everything else from just what you build/draft. By far the best way to rush production imo, to get say a huge edge as soon as you hit a new tech, but that's a bit of a different thread.

If I was running an SE though I would go with what you say there - draft more than usual (cause you can push up culture slider, 3 isn't all so bad when you have 40+ happy per city); you should always still have one or two HE/production cities which can build units the "slow" way anyway... The short answer is I cringe everytime I see someone slave something like, say, a plane, or an artillery, or who knows what else. Maybe if you're still at cannons/muskets you might need units speedily, but slaving just becomes too poor of a conversion after that when you other options are possible.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

That's pretty much true of all civics.

Except the default ones and possibly serfdom . Why do 0 AIs call serfdom favorite civic again? It would be FAR more useful if it came early enough to contend with slavery more meaningfully...

 

[Wodan]

Except the default ones and possibly serfdom . Why do 0 AIs call serfdom favorite civic again? It would be FAR more useful if it came early enough to contend with slavery more meaningfully...

Serfdom is pretty powerful in a SE->CE switch game. And it comes exactly when it needs to for that.

 

[SlipperyJim]

I honestly don't use it much, but when I do, the sheer number of units produced in the space of 10 turns is just terrifying !

Drafting is great with Spiritual:

• Switch to Nationhood + Theocracy
• Spend five turns drafting Riflemen
• Switch back to your economy-friendly civics (whatever you'd like)

Presto! Now you have fifteen Riflemen with 2xp each, you're right back to your favorite peacenik civics, and you didn't even have any anarchy! If you're also Aggressive (Monty), then all of those Riflemen can be Combat I + Pinch. The sheer firepower is stunning, and I don't think it can be replicated any other way. Drafting is almost like making a whole army for free.

I didn't use the draft either, but I just leveraged it into a sick advantage in NCXXIII. Draft Riflemen, load them onto Galleons, take over the other continent....

 

[CLST]

I find SE much better suited to war than CE for the following reasons.

1. I use a Farm/Workshop approach. Farms/Workshops are much easier to rebuild then Villages/Towns when they get pillaged/spy boomed. Also, since I know I'm going to be rebuilding those captured cottages/towns anyway, I can more willingly destroy/pillage those cottage/towns that I find.

2. Caste System allows you to pop borders like crazy in captured cities. Unlimited artist specialists is the best at establishing your culture short of a GA bomb.

3. SE allows you to bulb down the path to gunpowder units.

4. SE allows more production. It allows you to far more easily get the full benefit out of the Caste System/State Property/Biology shot in the arm that the SE needs when it starts to fall behind. This is when I usually switch to a mostly hammer economy, which is a smooth transition with SE.

I actually think Gandhi Spi/Phi is best for this, and is an incredible warmonger. (Irony!)

Now I typically switch civics a lot, but Representation/Caste System is almost always running, and then Mercantilism for a long time before eventually moving to a State Property.

 

[futurehermit]

CE can be very effective in terms of warmongering as well. As DaveMcW is fond of saying (paraphrase): 'Modern armor vs. rifles is a very strong warmongering approach. Build more cottages!'

 

[nullspace]

For a CE, universal suffrage is an awesome warmonger civic (flexibility again ).

 

[Crusher1]

Comes pretty late though. If you're lucky enough to be playing with a civilization like Ethiopia a quick beeline to gunpowder with a FE can spell an early game. Research could consist of a few simple bulbs with just enough scientist to push you towards an early Liberalism date, after which, you could just run at 100% culture and whip the world away.