Sea Tunels development thread

[Nimek]

It would also be easier (I think) to simply correct the AI's approach there than to try to enforce an entire game rule - plus if tunnels are only supposed to be built next to a city AND on the coast, that's going to make where the tunnel can go quite limited to an annoying extent even for the player. Many easily connected land masses would be unconnectable.

@TB

I talking about early sea tunels.

Example La Manche tunel was built in 1994 and it that time it was very difficult to built. No one even dream about tunnels beetwen continents.

 

[dan1ell1ma]

I think sea tunnels must need some construction in water, at first tile, like a improvement, and need start inside cultural boards. I suggest the first sea tunnel need be limited to the inicial 2 squares of a city, and in future, no limits. With advanced tec, sea tunnels allow the underwater cities, with sea tunnel connecting each other.

 

[dan1ell1ma]

I see the tunnels on this way:

The dude want connect a city and a land mass with a bonus resource and improvement. In this case, the city develop a building, allowing the work boat construct the tunnel. The art of tunnel, when next ot coast will have a exit to surface, using the art of roads of game. Like a connection of land roads. When a certain ultra advanced tech are developed, the limit of city area will be removed, allowing build unlimited sections of tunnel. Its possible make IA connect two land masses? I suggest the tunnel plot lost the yelds, preventing the IA of build everywhere.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Before proceeding into this discussion too far, can someone who knows what the tunnel statistics actually are post that info here? I mean... do they add anything to the plot aside from an ability to let land units onto sea tiles?

Also, if we're to have this discussion and really look into further developments here, what about bridges? Where are we with that DH? I recall there were some interesting graphics for that. If I'm to adjust anything on routes to accomodate for new tunnel processes then I should look at bridges now too. What's been done in the code could be easily shifted to differentiate between being in a tunnel and being on a bridge. Then some pros and cons between tunnels and bridges would need discussion as well.

 

[dan1ell1ma]

Before proceeding into this discussion too far, can someone who knows what the tunnel statistics actually are post that info here? I mean... do they add anything to the plot aside from an ability to let land units onto sea tiles?

Also, if we're to have this discussion and really look into further developments here, what about bridges? Where are we with that DH? I recall there were some interesting graphics for that. If I'm to adjust anything on routes to accomodate for new tunnel processes then I should look at bridges now too. What's been done in the code could be easily shifted to differentiate between being in a tunnel and being on a bridge. Then some pros and cons between tunnels and bridges would need discussion as well.

I love bridges, and will propose a discussion about it. I suggest bridge must be constructed in a plot between two Shores, like a lake, a bay or a strait. With advanced tech, this limit will be gone. I suggest a build in same way of under tunnels, do you start from a city or a especial improvement in land. A improvement what will put a tag in terrain allowing the construction of a bridge or a tunnel. Like "foundation". I suggest this improvement erase the yelds, make the IA balance the build and do it only when worth it.

 

[dan1ell1ma]

And, thinking about strategies, the bridge can be attacked and destroied by land units, sea units, missile and air units. The tunnels only for submarines.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

The big problem with tunnels and routes is the possibility that they will join islands and continents together drastically changing the trade network. This is big and will increase turn times greatly since these routes can also be destroyed breaking the connections as well. This issue was the main reason no work has been done.

The current AI will build tunnels to resources inside your territory that have not been improved then improve that plot. It will then fill in every plot in your territory with tunnels. It is using the same logic as for land routes.

Before proceeding into this discussion too far, can someone who knows what the tunnel statistics actually are post that info here? I mean... do they add anything to the plot aside from an ability to let land units onto sea tiles?

They are just a route. They add +1 to the plot.

Also, if we're to have this discussion and really look into further developments here, what about bridges? Where are we with that DH? I recall there were some interesting graphics for that.

Nowhere. Also if we have bridges and tunnels the AI will try and upgrade one to the other since that is the way routes work.

I suggest a build in same way of under tunnels, do you start from a city or a especial improvement in land. A improvement what will put a tag in terrain allowing the construction of a bridge or a tunnel. Like "foundation". I suggest this improvement erase the yelds, make the IA balance the build and do it only when worth it.

If the land improvement for the tunnel is not getter than the other improvements available for the plot the AI wont build them.

 

[Thunderbrd]

The big problem with tunnels and routes is the possibility that they will join islands and continents together drastically changing the trade network. This is big and will increase turn times greatly since these routes can also be destroyed breaking the connections as well. This issue was the main reason no work has been done.

I do recall there being issues with this - can't tunnels already connect landmasses though? Seems this is already a situation and it's currently being handled...
Delays in these cases tend to be for the round when connections are made or broken and it can move on fairly smoothly from there (theoretically.)

The current AI will build tunnels to resources inside your territory that have not been improved then improve that plot. It will then fill in every plot in your territory with tunnels. It is using the same logic as for land routes.

Yeah, that's what will need adjusting where bridge/tunnels are concerned - that's not optimal really. (Well it IS with what you explain below here but I don't think it should be because in RL that doesn't make much sense.)

They are just a route. They add +1 to the plot.

Maybe they shouldn't add the +1 and just be of benefit for crossing - would make AI adjustments to how they handle them make more sense.

Nowhere. Also if we have bridges and tunnels the AI will try and upgrade one to the other since that is the way routes work.

That's a very significant difficulty to work with if we want both. Maybe we could make tunnels a route option for more distant locations and anything making a 2 plot connection or less would be a bridge instead. Why the difference? Strategic interactivity.

As I recall, we did have bridge artwork that could be utilized right?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I do recall there being issues with this - can't tunnels already connect landmasses though? Seems this is already a situation and it's currently being handled...
Delays in these cases tend to be for the round when connections are made or broken and it can move on fairly smoothly from there (theoretically.)

They physically connect with a route but don't affect trade routes. This means that single plot islands still need a fort to access the resource not the normal improvement.

Maybe they shouldn't add the +1 and just be of benefit for crossing - would make AI adjustments to how they handle them make more sense.

The AI would still build them since that is the route logic about connecting places.

As I recall, we did have bridge artwork that could be utilized right?

There is, but I can't remember if it was limited to east-west and north-south or it also had diagonals. I don't think the diagonals were made.

 

[Faustmouse]

Tunnels should - if at all - have a - per turn. And they should be very expensive to build (Sorry Joseph ). (I also think Maglevs and electrical railroads are waaaay too cheap...)

It makes no sense as well if Tunnels have a bonus if you build them to a fishing boat. How would they interact?

And lastly, I'm not 100% sure about this, but I highly doubt that Bridges will ever be feasable for crossing large bodies of water. They must allow ships to cross them somehow, they need VERY "high" pillars to stand on if they reach to the seafloor, they have to be capable of dealing with very high waves and strong storms etc etc.



Why do connect tunnels 2 continents anyways? That seems weird. Is there any benefit from it or is it just a site effect of some coding that can't be changed easily?

 

[dan1ell1ma]

Its possible make a routine in IA where they preferred to build a tunnel to acess land masses in place of build ships? The IA make forts in one tile island? Its possible make two improvement in the same tile? Like forests and mines? In this case we can have tunnels and fish improvement. I think tunnels dont need to give any yeld, but cost. And, if the IA look for make routes with a objective, not a improvement of land, its possible do the tunnels.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Tunnels should - if at all - have a - per turn. And they should be very expensive to build (Sorry Joseph ). (I also think Maglevs and electrical railroads are waaaay too cheap...)

There is currently no way in Civ IV to have an improvement have a cost per turn. The AI would need to change if they did.

It makes no sense as well if Tunnels have a bonus if you build them to a fishing boat. How would they interact?

You can load the fish straight into the tunnel and onto freight trains. Of course it would completely use up the resource.

And lastly, I'm not 100% sure about this, but I highly doubt that Bridges will ever be feasable for crossing large bodies of water. They must allow ships to cross them somehow, they need VERY "high" pillars to stand on if they reach to the seafloor, they have to be capable of dealing with very high waves and strong storms etc etc.

Depends of course on what you mean by large and if the water is deep. Isn't there a bridge in Florida, USA that does all this?

Why do connect tunnels 2 continents anyways? That seems weird. Is there any benefit from it or is it just a site effect of some coding that can't be changed easily?

Same reason as roads connect two plots. Currently they don't and this is seen as a problem. If you have a one plot island with a resource in the work area of a city you can either get the resource and no yield or get the yield and no resource.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Its possible make a routine in IA where they preferred to build a tunnel to acess land masses in place of build ships? The IA make forts in one tile island? Its possible make two improvement in the same tile? Like forests and mines? In this case we can have tunnels and fish improvement. I think tunnels dont need to give any yeld, but cost. And, if the IA look for make routes with a objective, not a improvement of land, its possible do the tunnels.

Tunnels are a route like roads. They interact with improvements (eg mines) and features (eg forests) in the same way. Connecting plots and improvements to your trade network and possibly adding some yield.

Trade access to landmasses via coasts and oceans is done via technologies and having a fort/city on the other landmasses.

The current AI for work boats is the same AI as for land work units. It used to be a cut down version since water plots can only have resources in BtS. This means anything we add needs AI. The route AI for land is not suitable for use by work boat units, so a new part of the AI is needed.

 

[dan1ell1ma]

Tunnels are a route like roads. They interact with improvements (eg mines) and features (eg forests) in the same way. Connecting plots and improvements to your trade network and possibly adding some yield.

Trade access to landmasses via coasts and oceans is done via technologies and having a fort/city on the other landmasses.

The current AI for work boats is the same AI as for land work units. It used to be a cut down version since water plots can only have resources in BtS. This means anything we add needs AI. The route AI for land is not suitable for use by work boat units, so a new part of the AI is needed.

And if we have a new worker? One with a new IA? Not a workboat, but a work submarine or something like that? In my games i only build roads where need and strategically. Example: a improvement with a river dont need a road to connect, the new IA can build this one later. I guess a ia focused in connect cities and land masses will be very awesome. How can i help to develops it?

 

[Thunderbrd]

They physically connect with a route but don't affect trade routes. This means that single plot islands still need a fort to access the resource not the normal improvement.

I'm not terribly concerned about trade factors regarding tunnels yet.

The AI would still build them since that is the route logic about connecting places.

Which would be easily adjusted - the code can be taught to differentiate normal route behavior on sea tiles. I'm not just talking about xml here.

There is, but I can't remember if it was limited to east-west and north-south or it also had diagonals. I don't think the diagonals were made.

hmm... we could play off that at least. There's interesting river coding to determine directional factors I could draw on for an example. So whether a route was a tunnel or a bridge would be determined in-code. Build as tunnel - end up as a bridge if the conditions are correct (this would be able to keep us to the art we have at least.) Then they'd behave the same with the exception of strategic considerations.

Tunnels should - if at all - have a - per turn. And they should be very expensive to build (Sorry Joseph ). (I also think Maglevs and electrical railroads are waaaay too cheap...)

I completely agree - many routes should add +1 on most tiles (enhanced trade facilitation) BUT also cost an upkeep that gets quite exhorbitant as you get into later ages. Any idea how much is spent annually on infrastructure in this country? We're not talking about adding new roads either - it's all maintenance.

I'd like to see this more accurately reflected too.

It makes no sense as well if Tunnels have a bonus if you build them to a fishing boat. How would they interact?

Completely agree.

And lastly, I'm not 100% sure about this, but I highly doubt that Bridges will ever be feasable for crossing large bodies of water. They must allow ships to cross them somehow, they need VERY "high" pillars to stand on if they reach to the seafloor, they have to be capable of dealing with very high waves and strong storms etc etc.

Distances are skewed in civ. I think as long as we keep bridges to spanning 2 or less ocean tiles and only on coast we should be fine for an envisionable RL model. Would be worth it to have some variation in strategy.

Why do connect tunnels 2 continents anyways? That seems weird. Is there any benefit from it or is it just a site effect of some coding that can't be changed easily?

What about the tunnel from the UK to Europe?

Its possible make a routine in IA where they preferred to build a tunnel to acess land masses in place of build ships? The IA make forts in one tile island? Its possible make two improvement in the same tile? Like forests and mines? In this case we can have tunnels and fish improvement. I think tunnels dont need to give any yeld, but cost. And, if the IA look for make routes with a objective, not a improvement of land, its possible do the tunnels.

The AI doesn't well utilize tunnels yet since area boundaries are never considered crossable - that part's going to take a lot more consideration as to how to get things to work well without lots of delay - very similar to the trade route issues DH has pointed out.

There is currently no way in Civ IV to have an improvement have a cost per turn. The AI would need to change if they did.

Which would be a worthy project I think.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Either way we would still need new AI. We do have a number of sea worker units. The base line of work boats that upgrade to construction ships Where the last could be any combination of robotic style machines. IE they are already submarines only better.

Personally I would prefer if the water and land constructors were the same unit but we would need them to be multi domain and we did not have that ability when we designed and built them.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

The AI doesn't well utilize tunnels yet since area boundaries are never considered crossable - that part's going to take a lot more consideration as to how to get things to work well without lots of delay - very similar to the trade route issues DH has pointed out.

Not true. The AI and automatic workers do build across boundaries. At least the boundary with your nation and neutral territory. I have seen both (work boats and workers) build long routes from one section of their territory to another disconnected section. They will just not enter unfriendly territory. They will even build the route through friendly territory (vassal or open border or the other one before before open border) to connect resources inside your territory.

Unfortunately with the criminal units they should not even cross friendly territory. It use to be that you could help your friends and vassals build up their trade network with routes but no longer.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Either way we would still need new AI. We do have a number of sea worker units. The base line of work boats that upgrade to construction ships Where the last could be any combination of robotic style machines. IE they are already submarines only better.

Personally I would prefer if the water and land constructors were the same unit but we would need them to be multi domain and we did not have that ability when we designed and built them.

I was kinda thinking along the same lines - a land unit that can move over water would be a more appropriate unit for that I think. Or the first suggestion.

Not true. The AI and automatic workers do build across boundaries. At least the boundary with your nation and neutral territory. I have seen both (work boats and workers) build long routes from one section of their territory to another disconnected section. They will just not enter unfriendly territory. They will even build the route through friendly territory (vassal or open border or the other one before before open border) to connect resources inside your territory.

I didn't mean the ais for the units building the routes - I meant for other units plotting their movement through tunnels. Last I recall automation was showing units would never consider another area within the range of plots they could move into even if a tunnel existed that could provide it. Koshling may have resolved that though...

Unfortunately with the criminal units they should not even cross friendly territory. It use to be that you could help your friends and vassals build up their trade network with routes but no longer.

We could probably re-establish the trade routes through such tunnels and bridges but it's going to be something we'll want to streamline better if we do.

 

[Faustmouse]

What about the tunnel from the UK to Europe?

So before the tunnel they were considered two continents but now they are one?

I think you got me wrong. I was asking why (or if) the games merges two seperated land masses (aka two continents) into one when they are connected with a tunnel.

 

[Thunderbrd]

So before the tunnel they were considered two continents but now they are one?

I think you got me wrong. I was asking why (or if) the games merges two seperated land masses (aka two continents) into one when they are connected with a tunnel.

A land mass surrounded by water tiles is considered an 'Area' in the code. A mass of water tiles surrounded by landmass is considered an 'Area' as well. Earth would have one big 'Area' ocean. Connecting/merging Areas is kinda a problematic thing in the code. It changes the range units can move to and causes massive trade route recalculations. This can greatly disturb caches and last I knew there was still a bug with a given area definition dividing into two areas that can cause a crash. So at the moment, to my understanding, tunnels do NOT officially merge the two masses into one so AI units don't understand that they can even traverse from one area to the next without boarding a transport to get there or airlifting in.

For many 'earth changes' events and effects as well as tunnel connections/disconnections to behave correctly, this issue would need to be sorted out somehow so that new areas may be safely defined within the gamespace and so that it doesn't cause a massive delay when two areas become one (or we must simply accept the delay when this happens.)