Seeding options - best sponsor

[Xenotitan]

It's hard for me to pick a clear winner, although my favorite to play is the Kavithan Protectorate. If I had to pick best as in strongest I'd pick Elodie, barely.

ARC - Assuming NOT using the establish network spam. Since getting to steal science doesn't take long at all and steal tech isn't that far behind, I'll approximate this UA to +33% science from covert ops. Pretty good. I lack the knowledge of which building quests give extra spies, which would help me evaluate this better.

PAC - I find the wonder bonus underwhelming. I rarely build wonders and even more rarely lose them to the AI. The worker bonus is okay, but mostly I think of this ability as meaning you have to build fewer workers. Not that big a deal.

PAU - Garbage

KP - Shaving ~6 turns getting a new city up is nice. Not all tiles are created equal, so larger borders means the tiles you work are better quality. If your borders bump up against the AI, with KP more of the land will be on your side. A good UA, not the strongest.

Brasilia - Garbage

Franco-Iberia - This takes good planning to really get the most out of, but even if you just pick the tech when you happen to hit virtue 10/20/30 the free tech is still powerful. A solid UA. 2 free techs a game is a good estimate I think.

Polystralia - It isn't a secret on these boards that trade routes are crazy good. If you use the bonus two on external routes, which I usually do, this is about +30 energy and +20 science per turn once you're in the midgame if you have a coastal capital.

SF - The free tech at a time of your choosing seems to be a crucial part of a couple different strategies I've read about. Such strategies really don't fit my playstyle though. Choosing when to get a free tech is nice, but I don't think it can beat Elodie who can get two free techs out in an average game. The 20% bonus to satellite time really needs reworked, especially as the increased time makes several satellites weaker (miasma repulser/condenser, weather controller, orbital fabricator).

 

[Cai30]

You have to factor in the chance of success. I think someone posted the numbers somewhere on the board, but if stealing tech succeeds 50% of the time, you have to multiply those numbers by 0.5 (so, 1 tech per spy instead of 2). There are other factors, too, like the fact that you'll be able to complete more missions before the AIs get defensive against spies (which is in ARC's favor) and the cost for having to get the spy agency up quickly (which might be a point against ARC, unless you'd do it even if you weren't playing ARC).



Yeah, can you explain that?

The other numbers posted in that thread say that the base rate of 50% is modified by (Your agent level-Counterintel agent level)*5%. Which means in the early game if you can get spy agency first you should be able to tech steal 65% of the time.

Given that most agents are level 3 by the time they can tech steal early in the game, let's use 65%.

That means of the initial 3 agents, you can estimate getting 2 free techs every 19 turns (15 with ARC). That averages once every 10 turns (7.5 for ARC).

If teching through spies is what you're looking for, however, stealing research may be better. At level 3 agents early on it's an 80% success chance (65% base). Which means every 19 turns (15 for ARC again) you get 25% of whatever tech you're working on.

My experience is I actually prefer stealing research to stealing techs, since it's more controlled. Stealing techs is a gamble, but you know what research you're going to make progress on with steal research.

Also, ARC to maximize its benefit needs to make a detour for communications and go surpremacy for Command Center and Feedsite Hub (+1 covert op each). Then the deliver dossier quest which gives an agent should be 30-60 turns after starting spying. Which means the ARC can steal roughly any tech you're working on at a 80% (65% base for steal research + 15% for level 3 agent) rate early on every 15 turns (having 5-6 agents at this point). Which makes ARC a slow starter that needs to avoid early war, but can be pretty amazing lategame when shaving turns off of win condition techs.

Later in the game it balances out to 50% tech steal rate and 65% steal research if the opposition invests in counter intel.

On topic: I've only won Apollo games with ARC, F-I, and PAC (I haven't had too much time put into Civ:BE), so naturally I lean towards them as favorite sponsor, but I more know I dislike Brasilia and PAU than willing to guess a favorite/best sponsor. But I'd argue the ARC for their potential huge science boosts when played well as well as some flexibility in alternate operations.

 

[Bandobras Took]

Yeah, can you explain that?

This lists building quests. Two buildings that will give you an extra spy are Command Center and Feedsite Hub. Both enabled by Communications, which is right off of Computing, which you have anyway. Two spies per city is easy. Three is doable, but CEL Cradles require 4 Supremacy rather than the easier 2 of the Feedsite Hub.

I don't view Communications as a detour in that light. It's giving you two extra tech stealers. So far as I know, the "Increase chance of success" HQ project is 1% per spy, so there's probably on optimal number of spies to have out in the field vs back home helping, but my math skills aren't that good.

Since chance of success does affect all factions equally, that cancels out for the purpose of comparison. To be really accurate, we'd also have to factor in how much more quickly ARC gets to the "Steal Tech" level of Intrigue with their bonus to accumulated intrigue.

My main point is that people dismissing ARC's ability aren't looking at a big enough picture. It's easy to point to Hutama and say "Trade Routes are overpowered, so two more must be even more overpowered!" But it's not that more reliable than ARC's ability. For you to get full value from it, you need to have:

• Two more trade targets than otherwise available trade routes;
• An actual route to those targets;
• That does not cross through Miasma;
• And won't be eaten by Aliens;

That's quite a list to fill at the part of the game when it has its largest impact. No matter what, for those extra trade routes to be worth anything, you need to have already filled what would otherwise be your limit with your current cities. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I'm saying that it doesn't, in my experience, happen with anything close to 100% frequency. Once you've gotten Ecology and been able to launch the necessary Repulsors/done the Fence quest, it gets better, but that's not an extremely early bonus any more.

 

[m15a]

Wait. Those building quests give you an extra spy *per building*?

 

[Soffacet]

It's easy to point to Hutama and say "Trade Routes are overpowered, so two more must be even more overpowered!"

It's easy to assume that's what other people are thinking. But that's not why the Hutama TRs are good. In fact, it would normally be a reason why Hutama is bad. An individual TR is strong yes, but the OP comes from the fact that you get more TRs per city. So you can create a positive feedback loop with colonist + trade unit. Once you are sufficiently wide, Hutama's two extra are hardly noticeable.

So why is Hutama good? It's because having two extra ETRs right away increases your early bpt by 2-3x over any other civ at that time. The conditions to successfully establish those TRs are not difficult to satisfy. The game is sufficiently easy that basically any strategy can win, but early beakers are basically the only thing that matters if you are chasing consistent MP success or SP turn times.

 

[Bandobras Took]

Wait. Those building quests give you an extra spy *per building*?

I believe so, though I don't have a game up to double-check. I'll run another game to be sure; that was my impression the last ARC game I tried this. If it turns out I'm mistaken, then ARC won't be quite so hideously broken as I was thinking.

 

[Bandobras Took]

It's easy to assume that's what other people are thinking. But that's not why the Hutama TRs are good. In fact, it would normally be a reason why Hutama is bad. An individual TR is strong yes, but the OP comes from the fact that you get more TRs per city. So you can create a positive feedback loop with colonist + trade unit. Once you are sufficiently wide, Hutama's two extra are hardly noticeable.

So why is Hutama good? It's because having two extra ETRs right away increases your early bpt by 2-3x over any other civ at that time. The conditions to successfully establish those TRs are not difficult to satisfy.

People are complaining that ARC's spies are affected by random chance; I'm merely pointing out that those two extra trade routes are also affected by random chance. How often do you have viable targets for those 2 extra trade routes when their yields triple your bpt? If your normal two are going to bpt, how are the extra two tripling it?

I wish again to reiterate that I'm not saying the +2 Trade Routes in the capital aren't good news. I merely think that people are overstating that capacity (especially in the tech department) and understating ARC's.

Edit: And in the game I'm running to make sure the buildings give what I think they do, I researched Computing through Ecology and have not yet triggered the trade convoy shield protection; I have but three possible external trade routes at the moment, none of which are coastal, but at least the terrain is open enough that miasma won't prevent me from sending the trade convoys as soon as I can protect them from the aliens.

 

[Roxlimn]

Just tried Brasilia on Might with Scavenging. Turns out to not be as bad as I'd expected. The extra 10% really gives you an edge. It's highly dependent on spawning near Nests, but if you have something like 4 Nests to cycle and all the Aliens to kill that you'd want - well, 60 beakers isn't a small thing in the early game.

The odd thing is that that many Nests nearby also meant that I eventually settled over them - so my alien-killing Brasilian people ended up... Harmony.

 

[Bandobras Took]

In further updates, spies are available at turn 75; I've still not triggered the quest from the Fence, so my Trade Routes are still vulnerable, and the only science I'm getting from trade routes is 5/turn from a station, which hardly qualifies as half of my bpt, let alone two thirds. The cheapest tech I'll be able to research by the time a spy can steal one is 262 beakers, and my science from trade routes so far is roughly 275 (let's add another 150 for the time it would take to establish tech stealing ability) -- I probably should have kept better track. Assuming 50% failure, I'm averaging at least 393 for tech stealing the least expensive techs, which is well in the 425 range. If I manage to pop one of the 2.604 beaker techs I have available, I've just blown trade routes out of the water as far as beakers go. It may be that I got a poor showing from trade routes, but that's exactly my point -- luck plays just as much into the strength of early trade routes (other than internal, which is a point in Hutama's favor) as it does into ARC tech steal. The extra two trade routes aren't nearly as strong by the time luck ceases to be a factor, but tech steal can only possibly get stronger as the game goes on.

Didn't get to protect my Convoys until turn 91. I'm not sure what definition we're using for early, but 91 isn't the first number I think of for it.

And it's not +1 Spy per building; I apologize for the mistake and misinformation, will hang my head in shame, and submit myself for public mockery at the nearest tribunal.

 

[ori]

Moderator Action: poll added as requested - next time please use the report post function, gets you there quicker than waiting for a moderator to wander through...

 

[ggmoyang]

Two buildings that will give you an extra spy are Command Center and Feedsite Hub. Both enabled by Communications, which is right off of Computing, which you have anyway. Two spies per city is easy.

No, only 1 additional spy is only given per building type.

 

[Soffacet]

People are complaining that ARC's spies are affected by random chance; I'm merely pointing out that those two extra trade routes are also affected by random chance. How often do you have viable targets for those 2 extra trade routes when their yields triple your bpt? If your normal two are going to bpt, how are the extra two tripling it?

There is much less random chance with the TRs. I don't know what game types you usually play, but I typically have zero problems finding available ~8e/~8b ETRs. Also, one of the "normal two" is an ITR to the first expo. So Hutama has 3 vs 1 ETR at that point in the game.

I wish again to reiterate that I'm not saying the +2 Trade Routes in the capital aren't good news. I merely think that people are overstating that capacity (especially in the tech department) and understating ARC's.

I think you are overstating ARC's. First of all because you don't know how the buildings work. You only get 1 spy total from command centers and feedsite hub. This leads me to believe that your arguments are 100% theorycraft and not based on actual game experience.

 

[Bandobras Took]

I'm going to theorycraft here and guess that you didn't bother to read my last post before posting your response. I'll wait until you do, and then we can resume this discussion when you're done theorycrafting about whether or not I theorycraft.

Don't feel too bad; ggmoyang seems to have not bothered to read through the thread before replying, either.

 

[Soffacet]

I'm going to theorycraft here and guess that you didn't bother to read my last post before posting your response. I'll wait until you do, and then we can resume this discussion when you're done theorycrafting about whether or not I theorycraft.

Don't feel too bad; ggmoyang seems to have not bothered to read through the thread before replying, either.

Right, sorry I didn't notice the one sentence in all of your posts where you admit that the information contained in all the rest of your posts is false. That definitely invalidates my point and not yours amirite.

 

[ZHONN]

I'm torn between faster spy rate, worker speed and extra trade routes. Faster spy rate gives more science, and science is essential. The worker speed increase is big in my opinion, and it makes it much faster to get academies or terrascapes. The extra trade routes can be a great help in the early game, but I find it more situational than the other two.

 

[Bandobras Took]

Right, sorry I didn't notice the one sentence in all of your posts where you admit that the information contained in all the rest of your posts is false. That definitely invalidates my point and not yours amirite.

I would have thought admission of the mistake was evidence of my good faith. Perhaps you could give similar evidence of good faith by demonstrating how a mistake regarding spies being per building invalidates the following in my posts:

ARC's Steal Tech costs 15 turns vs 20 for other factions. By the time another faction's spy has stolen three, ARC will have stolen four (this is discounting how much more quickly ARC can get a city to the appropriate level).

But it's not that more reliable than ARC's ability. For you to get full value from it, you need to have:

• Two more trade targets than otherwise available trade routes;
• An actual route to those targets;
• That does not cross through Miasma;
• And won't be eaten by Aliens;

That's quite a list to fill at the part of the game when it has its largest impact. No matter what, for those extra trade routes to be worth anything, you need to have already filled what would otherwise be your limit with your current cities. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I'm saying that it doesn't, in my experience, happen with anything close to 100% frequency. Once you've gotten Ecology and been able to launch the necessary Repulsors/done the Fence quest, it gets better, but that's not an extremely early bonus any more.

More specifically, we have:

People are complaining that ARC's spies are affected by random chance; I'm merely pointing out that those two extra trade routes are also affected by random chance. How often do you have viable targets for those 2 extra trade routes when their yields triple your bpt? If your normal two are going to bpt, how are the extra two tripling it?

By the way, you never bothered to answer those questions. You claimed that that the two extra early trade routes could triple the bpt of someone who does not have them. I believe a demonstration of that would be nice. Unless we're assuming only Hutama has the ability to send out Trade Convoys for bpt, of course.

But here's the big one:

In further updates, spies are available at turn 75; I've still not triggered the quest from the Fence, so my Trade Routes are still vulnerable, and the only science I'm getting from trade routes is 5/turn from a station, which hardly qualifies as half of my bpt, let alone two thirds. The cheapest tech I'll be able to research by the time a spy can steal one is 262 beakers, and my science from trade routes so far is roughly 275 (let's add another 150 for the time it would take to establish tech stealing ability) -- I probably should have kept better track. Assuming 50% failure, I'm averaging at least 393 for tech stealing the least expensive techs, which is well in the 425 range. If I manage to pop one of the 2.604 beaker techs I have available, I've just blown trade routes out of the water as far as beakers go. It may be that I got a poor showing from trade routes, but that's exactly my point -- luck plays just as much into the strength of early trade routes (other than internal, which is a point in Hutama's favor) as it does into ARC tech steal. The extra two trade routes aren't nearly as strong by the time luck ceases to be a factor, but tech steal can only possibly get stronger as the game goes on.

Didn't get to protect my Convoys until turn 91. I'm not sure what definition we're using for early, but 91 isn't the first number I think of for it.

All you've said in response to this is:

Nothing. Because you haven't responded to it. You've instead chosen to state that making a mistake regarding whether a quest reward was per building rather than global invalidates the points of my argument that have nothing to do with it. You've also failed to demonstrate that it is, in fact, easy to overcome the objections I posted earlier. I'll repeat them:

• Two more trade targets than otherwise available trade routes;
• An actual route to those targets;
• That does not cross through Miasma;
• And won't be eaten by Aliens;

Your only response:

So why is Hutama good? It's because having two extra ETRs right away increases your early bpt by 2-3x over any other civ at that time. The conditions to successfully establish those TRs are not difficult to satisfy.

That's an argument that's suspiciously similar to the Civ 4 strategy argument "Axe Rushes are always the right move because I always play on maps where Axe Rushes are always the right move."

Since I played a game to actually test both what I am saying and what you are saying, I'll point out again that I couldn't protect my trade routes until turn 91. Because the quest for the building is a random popup. And further that because of the (again) random nature of both Station and other Faction starting points, I only had one trade route source of Science. And I fortunately didn't have to deal with any miasma blockades to send a trade route there.

Your contention is that Hutama's strength is in how early he gets the extra trade routes for extra bpt. Your counter to my list of obstacles is that they are easily overcome. But if they aren't overcome soon enough, then your original premise is bunk. As I said, I don't consider turn 91 particularly early. And that was well after I had gotten spies. Yes, I might have gotten poor luck, but that is exactly my point: Hutama's ability being truly powerful is just as reliant on luck; by the time it no longer relies on luck, it's no longer as strong.

 

[Soffacet]

I would have thought admission of the mistake was evidence of my good faith. Perhaps you could give similar evidence of good faith by demonstrating how a mistake regarding spies being per building invalidates the following in my posts:

So, you were surprised that your arguments weren't taken seriously after you made a statement that demonstrated lack of basic game knowledge, that also happened to have a huge impact on the claim you were trying to make. You made a similarly concerning error in the Tectonic Scanner thread. Sorry, but no one has the time to give everyone on the internet their full effort. Some arguments get filtered out as not being worth the time.

Nothing. Because you haven't responded to it. You've instead chosen to state that making a mistake regarding whether a quest reward was per building rather than global invalidates the points of my argument that have nothing to do with it. You've also failed to demonstrate that it is, in fact, easy to overcome the objections I posted earlier.

Your original argument was based on the idea that the ARC UA could be applied to a massive brigade of per city spies. In the real game, you are going to have 10 spies max IIRC. Probably closer to 6 spies for the period of time in which the game is still close. So depending on how many cities you had in mind (maybe, 20?), ARC is vastly weaker than you originally claimed.

If we convert 3 ARC spies = 4 other spies (which is messy since it isn't equal until exactly 60 turns), the ARC UA is basically to have 1 extra spy as soon as they build Agency, and another spy as they unlock more with quests and/or virtues. While that is very nice, it's just not even close to being the type of technological juggernaut that you were implying.

Since I played a game to actually test both what I am saying and what you are saying, I'll point out again that I couldn't protect my trade routes until turn 91. Because the quest for the building is a random popup. And further that because of the (again) random nature of both Station and other Faction starting points, I only had one trade route source of Science. And I fortunately didn't have to deal with any miasma blockades to send a trade route there.

n=1 is evidence of nothing. You seem to be the only one rolling maps where TRs are difficult to establish. I've rolled dozens of maps, with various settings, where I had absolutely no problem building OER>Explo>Depot>4x Trade Unit in Freeland. Getting a map where Fence is required and the quest doesn't pop is exceedingly rare. If you really want to reduce the RNG, you can just build a 2nd fence in Jimoomba with the hammers from the ITR. The quest then has a ~2/3 chance to spawn within 10 turns.

To be fair, n=~20 is not evidence of anything either. But many other players seem to be having similar experiences, so I am fairly confident that my observations are in line with the norm.

 

[Chaleb]

Your contention is that Hutama's strength is in how early he gets the extra trade routes for extra bpt. Your counter to my list of obstacles is that they are easily overcome. But if they aren't overcome soon enough, then your original premise is bunk. As I said, I don't consider turn 91 particularly early. And that was well after I had gotten spies. Yes, I might have gotten poor luck, but that is exactly my point: Hutama's ability being truly powerful is just as reliant on luck; by the time it no longer relies on luck, it's no longer as strong.

I've gotten my trade routes eaten up once in my entirely of playing BE. It's simply just not as reliant on luck as Spies' operations going well (what was it again? 50% for stealing a tech?). You get a free Soldier by your 2nd or 3rd city, and you know where other leaders land beforehand so you can plan ahead. Worst case scenario you end up trading with a station instead of another city for the time being.

Not particularly advocating for one over the other, but you have to realize that trade routes simply aren't as luck based as spies.

 

[Bandobras Took]

That's better. Thank you.

Would you at least accept the idea that Hutama's value is map-dependent (even if we differ on the degree to which it is) while ARC's is not?

The maps I play on have led me to my conclusions about Hutama, so there is obviously a disconnect; that's another reason I wanted to play an actual game, especially since I completely garbled the spy list in my last ARC game.

 

[Xenotitan]

Hutama's value is also dependent on whether or not you have a coastal capital.