Sengoku-Deluxe: preview and discussion thread

[Storm Grunt]

@7Ronin - I got your PM, thanks,I'll change it ASAP.Glad you like the Icon.I made three different ones but chose the one that best fit your pedia description. In order for me to enter it in the contest I would have to release it to the public,which I don't think I want to do untill the scenario is done. Love the Imperial Decree Idea,what do you think for graphics? A Scroll?

@Takhisis -

Hah! Told ya it wouldn´t be so difficult!

I think that's all there is to it.

Thats not quite it. Adding it in the editor isn't the time consuming or hard part. The hard part is coming up with a Complete layout idea that is fitting to the scenario as 7Ronin had said, then doing ALL the graphics and text. Open up the the spaceship folder in the main art folder and take a look. There are 26 pcx files that would have to be created(mostly from scratch)that must also be properly aligned/plotted just for the spaceship victory screen alone. Then, each Piece or step in the victory needs graphics,the original has 10 pieces, so that would mean 10 Buildings.Large graphics from scratch(those could be copied and shrunk for 10 Buildings.small graphics) You would also need 10 civilopedia Icons Large and 10 small (these don't come out well if resized). Now, Don't forget about writing the 10 pedia descriptions and 1 for the spaceship victory game concept.
If you want to do all that I'll help with the Idea layout and enter it into the editor.


@Rambuchan -

I've been idly following this thread with a great interest. I think 7Ronin has been COMING WITH THA GOODS all over the thread and you should try and include his suggestions as much as possible. Not only are they historically detailed and seemingly accurate (the little I know of correlates well with his posts) but they also lend themselves well to civ gaming.

Thanks for your interest and input in this scenario!
I couldn't agree more! This scenario is going to come out much better thanks to 7Ronin's fantastic contributions.

If you see anything in that book of yours that you think would go well in this scenario, feel free to throw your ideas up here.This is a community effort after all.


THE MAP:

Changes so far:
The first thing I did was set it to a random map.I know a lot of people like preset maps, but I like the re-playability of a random map.I mean once you know where resources are going to appear its kinda like cheating and for me the randomness keeps it from getting stale quick.If someone wants to do a better preset map I will include 2 biq's in the scenario.

 

[7ronin]

Stormy,

Since the contests are very popular I expect that they will be around for some time. Once the scenario is released my guess is that you will be a winner.

I'm in favor of two biqs please.

Yes, a scroll would work for Imperial Decree. A wall hanging with calligraphy might be better but it would be a problem to come up with the text.

 

[7ronin]

And another:

#TECH_Sojutsu
^
^
^Sojutsu is the martial art of wielding the yari or Japanese spear or, more specifically, the straight headed spear. A yari measured anywhere from 3.5 to 20 feet in length. They were the primary weapon of the $LINK<Ashigaru=PRTO_Ashigaru> or foot soldiers although the shorter versions were sometimes carried by Samurai. The yari should not be confused with the costlier and more elegant $LINK<Naginata=TECH_Naginatajutsu>.
^
#DESC_TECH_Sojutsu
^
^ Yari are believed to have been derived from Chinese spears and while they were present in early Japan's history they did not become popular until the 13th century. The original warfare of the Bushi was not a thing for 'commoners'; it was a ritualized combat usually between two warriors who would challenge each other via mounted archery and sword duels. However the invasions of the Mongols in 1274 and 1281 changed Japanese warfare and weaponry. The Mongol-employed Chinese and Korean footmen wielded long lances, fought in tight formations, and moved in large units to stave off cavalry. Over the next 200 years the Japanese armies would mirror their European and Asian counterparts by training spearmen to support their mounted samurai and to ward off approaching horses.
^
^There are numerous classes and sub-classes of the yari based on overall length, the number and shape of the blades, whether the yari could cut as well as stab, and many other factors. Yari were generally characterized by a straight blade that could be anywhere from several inches long to three feet or more. Yari blades had extremely long tangs which were usually longer than the sharpened portion of the blade. The tang protruded into a hollow portion of the handle. This resulted in a very stiff shaft and made it nearly impossible for the blade to fall or break off. Some scholars argue that the yari was more deadly than the sword because the yari's blade needed to penetrate only a few inches into the flesh in order to be deadly and also had a reach advantage over the sword. The yari could be thrust very quickly and was difficult to parry.
^

 

[Rambuchan]

Storm Grunt: Yeah, there is all that to do with a Space Race Victory too. Indeed, if you want to take it to that extreme, there's also the victory video to mod as well.

About the maps I've got here (I brought the book into the office), there are way too many for me to just start coughing some out. May also distract the thread. So can you just tell me the exact time period you guys are working to please? Then I'll scan some of these Gyogi maps for the period, which outline the political divisions of Japan at the time.

I'm going to have another leaf through in a bit and I may be moved to scan something relevant.

 

[Rambuchan]

Here you go boys, a few maps from your time period. I've put the actual size map scan into the spoilers, cos I for one hate thumbnails.

Nakabayashi Kichibei: Fusokoku no Zu (Map of the Land of The Rising Sun). Dated: 1666.

Spoiler :

Nansembushu Dainihon Shotozu (Authorised Map of Great Japan and the World) Dated: 1557. [Separate World Map not scanned'n'posted]

Spoiler :

Nansembushu Dainihon Shotozu (Authorised Map of Great Japan and the World) Dated: early 17th. On six wooden screens. [World Map not scanned'n'posted]

Spoiler :

Nansembushu Dainihon Shotozu: Detail from "People of the World" panels which surround the map directly above, a mixture of depictions ranging from close observation to outright fantasy.

Spoiler :

From the Shugaisho gazetter (1291). This is a classic "gyogi type" map, which had a strictly adminstrative function.

Spoiler :

I hope these are useful for you in some kind of way. And if not, at least they may be interesting!

They are all Japanese mapmakers' work, whether influenced by European cartography (top map) or not (Gyogi map on bottom). There are LOADS more in this book.

PS. Remember that north is not always at top.

 

[7ronin]

@Ram - great maps! Thanks.

@All - I heartily recommend that you visit Imago Mundi (check Rambuchan's sig for the location) if you are at all interested in maps and mapping.

@All - In order to relieve the almost boring similarity of the Civilizations in Sengoku and to perhaps throw a wildcard and a little variety into the game, I would like to suggest the inclusion of Warrior Monks. There is historical precedent for this and at one time Warrior Monks even ruled an entire province! There are three Warrior Monk Civs. Each one has only one city. Only one of the three Warrior Monk Civs can build settlers so with the Warrior Monks what you see is pretty much what you get. They are however heavy on culture and they autoproduce lots of, what else, warrior monks. They should prove to be a thorn in the side of the regular Samurai civs.

 

[7ronin]

Wildcard #2: pirates.

Japanese pirates were active up until the late Sixteenth Century. Historically, they sailed out of Kyushu but there's no reason that you couldn't make one or two of the small off shore islands a pirate haven.

 

[Storm Grunt]

@Rambuchan - Those are nice looking maps you have there. Thank you.

@7Ronin -Hmmmm.....Interesting Idea. So,there would be 3 separate civs that only produce 1 unit each and can have only one city? It seems that in game they are going to get pummeled quite easily by the end of the first era by the more varied offense/defense/bombardment capability of the samurai civs. What would the monk civs be? yamabushi, shoei,????what other

Pre-placing barbarian camps on a secluded island in the pre-made map version should allow them to grow quit large and produce a lot of pirate ships before the samurai civs could mount a strong sea going force to deal with them.

 

[Takhisis]

You should have the Ikko-Ikkis, and Mount Hoei, and also the Christian rebellions. You could put warrior monks as the advanced barbarian unit, so suddenly htere would be a Buddhist uprising. also, you should put the Amida tongs, and swarms of wako from Satsuma and Choshu.

 

[Takhisis]

I added wako in my version of Sengoku... they&#180;re 2/1/2 and have enslave... it&#180;s added lots of spice to the game.
I&#180;m playing with the Otomo in Regent level. Everyone&#180;s captured at least one ship from the enemy. I started with one wako and then I suddenly had a barbarian uprising, so I captured about 6 ships in two turns, using every captured ship to capture another and so on, then I started attacking convoys... wakos rock!

 

[7ronin]

You could have two Warrior Monk Civs. One would be as Tak suggests Mount Hiei and the other is the Ikko Ikki. These two groups were incredibly powerful and were extremely difficult to root out. The base of operations of both were fortified mountain top monastaries. While they would have the advantage of autoproducing certain units that would not preclude them from creating other types of units as well. Very high defense but low offense. Ikko Ikki probaby ought to be able to create settlers.

by the way, the Japanese did not use catapults or trebuchets. Muskets were big but cannon use was limited - probably too hard to lug around in Japan's mountainous terrain.

The term for warrior monk is sohei. Yamabushi has two meanings based on different spellings. The first which roughly means "he who sleeps in the mountains" refers to a group of wandering itinerant monks who travelled throughout Japan. Yamabushi was a common disguise of the Ninja.

Yamabushi can also mean "mountain warrior" or "mountain samurai." The Yamabushi were typically ronin freebooters who went around signing on for whatever service in whatever war they could find. There is a certain element of the hick in the word Yamabushi.

Wak&#333; are Japanese pirates. I think it would be better for game play (assuming of course that our leader wishes to have them) to put them on one of the small islands.

There are also Nobushi or bandits.

 

[Storm Grunt]

I like the Idea of adding the two civs. It's going to be quit a bit of work to do it right(new city graphics,new leader heads,new population heads) and it'll push my time frame for completion waaaaay back but I guess that was inevitable

I'll add this stuff to the "to do list" 7Ronin.

 

[7ronin]

It's going to be quit a bit of work to do it right(new city graphics,new leader heads,new population heads)

Are you going to use "human" leaderheads or the "heraldric" style as in the original scenario?

 

[Storm Grunt]

Well since there aren't enough different Japanese human leader heads to replace all the heraldric ones and having 2 human ones would seem out of place I'll just stick with the heraldric style.

 

[Takhisis]

Better stick to the heraldric style. Many times, the daimyo died quickly, so there&#180;s not one single daimyo per clan.
What about the city graphics? I hate industrial cities, they&#180;re horrible. Will ya maek new ones?

 

[Ogedei_the_Mad]

Better stick to the heraldric style. Many times, the daimyo died quickly, so there´s not one single daimyo per clan.
What about the city graphics? I hate industrial cities, they´re horrible. Will ya maek new ones?

Why not use my Japanese cities?

 

[Storm Grunt]

The cities I had chosen are in post #3. They were made by Niessuh. I got them at the apyloton(sp) site. I thought the creator had stated that you did work on these Ogedei, Is that true?

 

[Ogedei_the_Mad]

He used certain structures in my city graphics, but those were from the Chinese city graphics. I made a new set of Japanese city graphics a while ago.

 

[Takhisis]

Could you put the link, please? I´m too lazy forr searching

 

[Ogedei_the_Mad]

Just look in the city graphics library.