Sengoku-Deluxe: preview and discussion thread

[Storm Grunt]

Ogedei- I had read of the importance of silver during this period and had already added it to the "to Do list". I was looking for a way to bring some kind of trade with china wonder or improvement into the scenario and your idea sounds like a good one. The only thing I might do differently is make silver more important by making a great wonder,"Exclusive Chinese Trade Agreement" build-able after say 3 "Chinese trade missions" are built that would earn the treasury 5%. I thought I read about one of the clans trying to get this or actually did get an exclusive trade agreement with china but when I tried to find it again I couldn't. Do you know if this is correct?

 

[Ogedei_the_Mad]

I thought I read about one of the clans trying to get this or actually did get an exclusive trade agreement with china but when I tried to find it again I couldn't. Do you know if this is correct?

That I don't know much about. The Ashikaga Shogunate was given a trade agreement in 1401 which lasted to 1530. "Chinese Trade Mission" would still work, of course, since the Sengoku Period starts at the end of the Onin War (1467).

I've just looked back through my sources and it seems that the silver trade following the 1530s (which grew rapidly from that point forward) was mostly through illicit or semi-legal trade. Japanese and Chinese merchants smuggled silver and Chinese goods back and forth (which though illegal was ironically what kept the coastal economy of the Ming Dynasty afloat).

One thing that could be done to reflect the historical reversal of trade relations with the Ming Dynasty would be to have a "Chinese Trade Mission" building that increases trade in all tiles and becomes obselete when a certain tech is researched. Then a later tech would provide a "Chinese Smuggling" wonder that gives the 5% treasury bonus since the smuggling trade was quite lucrative.

 

[7ronin]

I checked my various histories of Japan but I'm afraid that they are all too general to go into much detail on silver policies. Several things I did learn:

The Japanese had to bring Chinese and Koreans over to Japan to teach them the art of improved silver smelting.

Deep mine miners were employed as sappers in castle seiges. So there is a definite relationship between mining and siegecraft which you might make use of in the tech tree.

The silver trade with China encouraged piracy.

Hideyoshi placed a five percent tax on silver production.

@Ogedei: Good ideas!

 

[Takhisis]

Heya! I´m back!
You could use some of the ideas from here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=167889
You should also include Korean and Chinese doctors brought to Japan by the mighty.
Are you going to include the Ashikaga shoguns as part of this? Maybe you could have them playable and try to remake the decaying shogunate...

 

[Storm Grunt]

@ Ogedei - I like your Ideas. I will start working those into the scenario asap.
I've added the silver resource to the working model now.

@ 7ronin -I remember seeing an Asian smelting building on one of the other websites I'll try to find that again and put it in.
The mining> siege craft tech progression sounds good I'll work that in somewhere as well.
We can make the increased piracy activity with smuggling concept by making pirate ship units (flagged as hidden nationality/enslave) build-able along with the tech that brings smuggling into the game.

@ Takhisis - I've been reading some of your posts on that thread. Most of it is well after the time period of this scenario but I'm sure I'll find some stuff to fill in the post-sengoku era from there.I don't plan on adding any new civs. It would take too long to implement and I really want to keep my time frame for completion although RL seems like its already going to push that back a little anyway....

 

[Takhisis]

Yep, Rl has slowed me down many times as well... and now that I´ve been forbidden to be at a PC for more than 2 hours, it´s worse.

 

[Stazro]

If I remember correctly, the CD-Manual of "Shogun - Total War" is full of useful stuff about exactly the Sengoku-period. Sadly, I dont have it anymore, but perhaps someone else out there?

 

[Storm Grunt]

Welcome to CFC Stazro

Thanks for your input into this, but I would be a little wary about historical info from a game manual. They tend to tweak the truth a bit to their liking so that it enhances their product as they see fit.

I have sifted through the shogun total war websites and snatched some graphics to convert into splashes and backgrounds. Those who have played total war will be able to pick it out right away. I'll post a peek of the tech tree screen which uses those graphics soon.

 

[Takhisis]

My Shogun CD is broken . You would be a little wary about it? What´s into you?

 

[conquer_dude]

I have sifted through the shogun total war websites and snatched some graphics to convert into splashes and backgrounds. Those who have played total war will be able to pick it out right away. I'll post a peek of the tech tree screen which uses those graphics soon.

Welcome Stazro!!! :wave:

The graphics from STW would look great. You could use some for tech three backgrounds.

 

[Storm Grunt]

My Shogun CD is broken . You would be a little wary about it? What´s into you?

All I'm saying T is that I don't know if I would count on information from a game manual as being historically accurate info.

Here is a shot of the tech tree background Ive been working on. Since I'm not sure if I will be changing the tech's( which I most likely will) I haven't added the arrows yet.I have some nice looking bamboo lines for these.

 

[7ronin]

Stormy, impressive work on your tech tree and the bamboo will be a very nice touch. I'm liking this more and more.

 

[Takhisis]

Nice background! It reminds me of the Shōgun backgrounds. Did you copy one, or is it a brand-new?

 

[Storm Grunt]

Thanks for the comments guys,glad you like it. Theres still a lot of work to be done on that screen still.(buttons and advisor's)
The background is a converted and edited(had to make the parchment longer for the labels) graphic from Shogun Total War.

 

[7ronin]

#TECH_Sword_Crafting
^
^
^The sword has been called the soul of the Samurai. Japanese legend says that the art of Japanese sword crafting was developed by a smith named Amakuni around AD 700. Many of the early blades from this period are long and straight in the Chinese style so it is probably more likely that the folded steel techniques of sword making as well as early sword patterns were imported from China.
^
^Japanese swords and other edged weapons are manufactured by the Chinese method of repeatedly heating, folding and hammering the metal flat. This practice became popular and necessary because of the use of low quality Japanese iron ore in the smelting process. In order to counter this, and to homogenize the carbon content of the blades (giving some blades characteristic folding patterns) and to eliminate bubbles and impurities, the folding was developed and found to be quite effective, though labor intensive.
^
#DESC_Sword_Crafting
^Traditional Japanese steel is popularly considered to be one of the best for creating swords, but the true reasons for this are artistic and not functional - contemporary western steels were and most modern steels are actually superior in strength and purity. The total composition varied from smith to smith and lode of ore to lode of ore. The high percentage of carbon gave the blade strength while the silicon increased the flexibility of the blade as well as its ability to withstand stress.
^
^One of the core philosophies of the Japanese sword is that it has a single edge. This means that the rear of the sword can be used to reinforce the edge, and the Japanese took full advantage of this fact. When finished, the steel is not quenched or tempered in the conventional European fashion. Steel’s exact flex and strength vary dramatically with heat variation, and depending on how hot it gets and how fast it cools, the steel has vastly different properties. If steel cools quickly, from a hot temperature, it becomes martensite, which is very hard but brittle. Slower, from a lower temperature, and it becomes pearlite, which has significantly more flex but doesn’t hold an edge. To control the cooling, the sword is heated and painted with layers of sticky clay. A thin layer on the edge of the sword ensures quick cooling, but not so fast as to crack the sword steel (this makes the actual edge of the sword extremely hard martensite). A thicker layer of mud on the rest of the blade causes slower cooling, and softer steel, giving the blade the flex it needs (this makes the rear and inside of the sword into pearlite). When the application is finished, the sword is quenched and hardens correctly
^
^The forging of a Japanese blade typically took days and was considered a sacred art. As with many complex endeavors, several artists rather than a single craftsman were involved. There was a smith to forge the rough shape, often a second smith (apprentice) to fold the metal, a specialist polisher, and even a specialist for the edge itself. Often, there were sheath, hilt, and tsuba (handguard) specialists as well.

 

[Takhisis]

Well, stormy, you should change the monetary units to koku, for one thing. Have you done it yet?

 

[Stazro]

Well, stormy, you should change the monetary units to koku, for one thing. Have you done it yet?

See above:

The medium of exchange was koku of rice, not gold

In my research of this topic I am finding fault with your statement. Koku is a unit of measurement And that "Koku of Rice" was used to place a value on parcels of land. How many Koku of rice the land was able to produce was used to determine the lands value. Warlords would sometimes pay samurai in koku's of rice instead of land grants or salaries and the rice could then be sold or used. Gold and silver were still mined and coins were still used. Some coins were made by Each Diamyo and some were imported from china.

 

[Storm Grunt]

@7Ronin - Thanks for that impressive civilopedia entry. I copied it and pasted it in to the scenario but when I looked at it in game it doesent fit in the box.The front page entry can only be 5 lines long. I tried moving the descripition command up to just below the first paragraph but it was still 1 line to long and then when you switch to the description box its way too long. Not sure by how much, but If you want to edit it down or you want me too thats fine also.
BTW also it has to have the word tech in the description command line [#DESC_Sword_Crafting] needs to be [#DESC_TECH_Sword_Crafting]

EDIT:Cross post with starzo-
I was just going back to copy the link to that post.Thanks for saving me the trouble and its good to see that at least you are following this thread from the begining.

EDIT OF EDIT: Starzo- you forgot this part in the quote

To me it seems a correct statement would be that "Gold and silver was still used as money(weather directly minted into coins or used to purchase minted coins from the Chinese) While Rice was a major part of the Economy and often used as trade or payments in lieu of monetary coinage."

 

[Storm Grunt]

7Ronin- here's some in game shots to show how much editing is needed.

 

[7ronin]

@Stormy - I think it would be easier if you do the editing. I'm sure you can do a good job. You might be able to use some of the excess in "Metal Working." Why don't you list all your techs and I'll see if I can do some others for you.

@Stavro - My discussion was necessarily simplisitic. However, since the game context is wealth, and wealth in Japan at this time was measured in Koku, I think that the substitution of Koku for Gold is more than appropriate and adds a certain flavor which distinguishes this scenario from other ones.