Settlements of the Huns

[cool3a2]

Hi there!

I am about to update the citylist of my Hun mod for civ4. For that, I could need some hints for what I could add. I am aware of that Huns didn't leave much records. Still, I'd like to give this a go. I'd prefer real hunnish cities, not conquered ones. This might look like a mission impossible, but this source mentions that Huns indeed had permanent settlements: http://medievalnews.blogspot.com/2009/06/new-view-about-huns.html - unfortunately it doesn't mention details. Now, I know here are some guys around that are well eucated in history, so I hoped someone might be able to serve with details. Also, I am taking suggestios from different sources of course. The only city I am sure of taking is Tápiószentmárton as a hunnish palace has been found there.

 

[innonimatu]

I suspect that it is a mission impossible. The very few written records from the period mention embassies sent to meet the ordu of a ruler, which was just an army camp. That was the nearest thing the huns had to a capital.

Eastern Europe seems to have been sparsely populated during their time, and the late descriptions of the huns (military methods, political organization and behavior) seem to indicate that they were a nomadic people akin to the mongols. I very much doubt that anything deserving of the designation "city" will be found. Graves and camps, which might have been semi-permanent, have been found, but cities? Cities require civil administration (at the very least a writing system and a bureaucracy), and that is an area where the huns seemed to be absolutely lacking.

 

[cool3a2]

I'd be satisfied with settlements. We are speaking about ancient / pretty early medieval times and I'd say that a limited count of civs coming with civ4 actually had 'cities' at that time. Larger villages maybe, but cities? I mean, Romans and Chinese probably had cities at that time, but what's with the english or german civs for example?
Anyways, I'm satisfied with permanent settlements as the linked text suggests.

BTW: If there is any 'curiosity' you might have heard / read about the Huns, feel free to share it. I'm thinking of some interesting readings here, that you could share. Although the main purpose of this should still be the settlement question.

 

[innonimatu]

I just read some small sections on books and one four-page paper which is not freely available, unfortunately. But no mention of locations for settlements, just the old "Tisza river region/Transylvania" references.

 

[bombshoo]

I really think this is almost a lost cause. From my reading the only thing about the Hunnic language even available is some proper names for kings and chieftains. Volga Bulgarian is supposed to be similar so maybe you could borrow from them?

 

[cool3a2]

Hmmm... interesting hint. Unfortunately I am not familiar with that language. And even if, translating names of cities Huns have occupied in europe, could still be hard. Using cities of the volga bulgars for the list, would just not feel right to me.

 

[bombshoo]

Hmmm... interesting hint. Unfortunately I am not familiar with that language. And even if, translating names of cities Huns have occupied in europe, could still be hard. Using cities of the volga bulgars for the list, would just not feel right to me.

I actually agree with you entirely about it not feeling right. I knew it was a long shot, but I figured it was worth mentioning.

 

[Yeekim]

Hmmm... interesting hint. Unfortunately I am not familiar with that language. And even if, translating names of cities Huns have occupied in europe, could still be hard. Using cities of the volga bulgars for the list, would just not feel right to me.

Well, isn't Tápiószentmárton a Hungarian name anyway?

I'd suggest calling the settlements after names of rulers, which should be easier to find.
"Camp of Attila/Ellac/Mundzuk/Bleda/Ruga", ect. Of maybe "Horde of..." would be better.

Or, even better, you could name your cities by different Hunnic tribes (Kutrigurs, Utigurs, Suars, Sabirs, Acatziri, Kidarites etc).

 

[cool3a2]

Well, isn't Tápiószentmárton a Hungarian name anyway?

Yes, it is. I don't say using hungarian names is really better, but at least I could manage to set up a complete list that then would be 'harmonic' (instead of being compounded out of different languages). Unfortunately, hungarian is not hun either, therefor making the hun citylist consist of hungarian cities only would be strange again. Translating might work here and there, but won't be enough for an entire list.
In Tápiószentmárton, remains of a hun palace have been found. So this can be considered more then being a conquered city. Although it may have been to small for a city, it was at least hunnish instead of just conquered. Also, I can't tell you whether there is any kind of continuity between Tápiószentmárton and the settlement of the Huns. Could be that the said settlement has been destroyed competely and the city was build on top of that later. But Tápiószentmárton is the only name we know for that place. So, in conclusion I'm sorry to say that I can't really see your point. To be more specific: I can't see in what ways your statement fits to the citation you gave.

Your suggestions are interesting, though. Maybe I could find around 10 names of hun leaders, but calling them all camp of... or horde of... might be kind of boring. But at least these are hunnish names. I agree with you on that your second suggestion is even better. That really sounds like a good idea. I guess said tribes were more part of the hunnish federation than being really Huns. I mean, Ruga, Mundzuk, Attila and Bleda were all related, thus there was a certain tribe (maybe even an own people) that led the Hunnish federation for at least two generations. I'd consider those being the core-Huns, whereas other tribes were more a kind of companions. But of course, I'm not here to beef on any suggestion you guys make and of course, knowledge about the Huns is limited which gives limited leeway to us. This ways, your second suggestion is really an option - I could imagine to have it this ways. A citylist should be 20 - 25 cities long if possible, could you please give more tribe names or provide me sources? I'm interested at this topic anyways...

As I have no time to update the mod currently, I won't end this discussion yet. So feel free to make further suggestions. Thanks to those who have already participated so far!

 

[Yeekim]

But Tápiószentmárton is the only name we know for that place. So, in conclusion I'm sorry to say that I can't really see your point. To be more specific: I can't see in what ways your statement fits to the citation you gave.

Yes, unfortunately it is the only one we know and very obviously non-hunnic. It'd feel somewhat like making a Byzantine mod and naming their capital Istanbul, for me, at least.

Your suggestions are interesting, though.

Thanks.

A citylist should be 20 - 25 cities long if possible, could you please give more tribe names or provide me sources? I'm interested at this topic anyways...

I'm not much of an expert on this part of history (Black and White Huns being all I could have come up on my own ), so all these are just a result from cursory wiki search. If you like the idea, there are better people around to suggest good sources.

 

[cool3a2]

You don't know accidently who could know more about this? I mean, I started this thread to get information like that, but it seems like the users you had in mind didn't post here so far. I could write a pm when the time is right to get those users attention, but I'd need their usernames.