Settler factories - when, and how big?

[undertoad]

Hi all

I'm halfway through a Regent game - first one in ages - and was browsing this forum; and I thought, it's about time I started to understand Settler Factories. Too late for my current game (Industrial Era, I've got my whole continent and am now landing on the other to bash the civs there), but it 'll be useful next game.

I tried a test new game, but couldn't get it to work. Maybe this was because I was trying too early, forgetting that Pottery for a Granary is a prerequisite: but this wasn't the only difficulty I ran into.

From the article in the War Academy - http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=100256 - it looks like I can look for locations for

a) A 4-turn factory; or
b) a 6-turn factor.

The article is pretty clear about the food requirements: for a 4-turn, you need an extra 5 food per turn, and for a 6-turn, you need an extra 4 food per turn. Given that the city square produces 2 without having to support a citizen, this means:

a) A 4-turn factory needs 3 extra food outside the city square, over and above the "standard" 2 food per square needed to support the citz working it.
b) A 6-turn factory needs 2 extra food outside the city square, over and above the "standard" 2 per square.

On Shields, it seems that

a) For a 4-turn factory, you need 6 production per turn, potential for 7 after it grows once, + a spare forest (1 food 2 shields).
b) For a 6-turn factory, you need 4 production per turn, potential for 5 after it grows once, + a spare forest.

What I'm wondering is how players who use Settler Factories get this level of production. Obviously it's important to get it as soon as possible, as Settlers are much more valuable the earlier they're produced. The difficulty to me is to get this level of production in Despotism, while still producing enough extra Food, and avoiding civil disorder.

I've never been a big user of mining grassland - maybe that's where I'm failing? Without mining, and unless you've got a Game-in-Forest square (2fd+2shld), it seems that you have to have quite a big town, because it's very difficult to get >1 Shield and 2 Food from a square. So the lower population limits on Settler-factories have to be:

a) 4-turn factory: 5 citizens. (1 shield per worked square + city square = 6 shields)
b) 6-turn factory: 3 citizens (1 shield per worked square + city square = 4 shields)

Now on Regent, even a 3-citz town is going to present a civil disorder problem, as it'll grow to 4 before it produces its Settler. (This is assuming you're not lucky enough to have a Luxury hooked up already). A 5-citz town is a big civil disorder problem: 2 miserable ****tards, increasing to 3 for 2 turns each cycle.

So I want to ask players with experience of using Settler Factories: at what stage do you start thinking about them? Do you hook up a Luxury first? What do you put in the factory town, apart from the Granary of course? (Temple seems overkill) How big are your factory towns, generally?

My tests have been failing because I was (over-optimistically) hoping that I could set up factories pretty much from the word go. It seems I need

a) Pottery
b) Some way of keeping the factory from going into disorder. A luxury, extra Warriors for MP (which increases the overhead of the factory), or - do you guys build a Temple in the factory town?

Look forward to hearing thoughts from people who aren't total beginners at factories!

 

[Spoonwood]

What I'm wondering is how players who use Settler Factories get this level of production.

Irrigate any food bonus squares and mine grassland.

a) 4-turn factory: 5 citizens. (1 shield per worked square + city square = 6 shields)
b) 6-turn factory: 3 citizens (1 shield per worked square + city square = 4 shields)

Nope. With 1 irrigated cow playing as agricultural, two mined BGs a 1 shield square and a forest, that's 6 shields on turn 1 at size 3 (2 BGs+cow+city center), 8 shields on turn 2, 7 shields on turn 3, and 9 shields on turn 4. That's a size three to five, 4 turn settler factory. It usually takes longer to build the granary than that, but it does come as possible.

So I want to ask players with experience of using Settler Factories: at what stage do you start thinking about them?

Usually turn 1.

Do you hook up a Luxury first?

If I have one within the capital's radius MAYBE, but that doesn't happen all too often.

What do you put in the factory town, apart from the Granary of course?

Nothing else. Just the granary.

How big are your factory towns, generally?

Usually size 5 for two turns, then size 6 for two turns.

My tests have been failing because I was (over-optimistically) hoping that I could set up factories pretty much from the word go. It seems I need

a) Pottery

You can pre-build the granary with barracks, the Pyramids, a temple, or a settler. Given a game with no or sedentary barbarians you definitely can start setting up a settler factory from 4000 BC, and generally speaking I would say that you should do so (if you want to play as optimally as you can), or at least as soon after you've put out a scout or two and perhaps ONLY ONE settler.

b) Some way of keeping the factory from going into disorder. A luxury, extra Warriors for MP (which increases the overhead of the factory), or - do you guys build a Temple in the factory town?

I don't recommend any of the above. Raise the luxury slider. Take it as high you need to. 50%, 60%, 70%, however high you need to take it. This is NOT a joke. Raising the luxury slider for your settler factory pays off. I suspect that virtually eveyone on the forum who has run one will agree with me here.

 

[Sparthage]

Irrigate any food bonus squares and mine grassland.

Funny. I gave that exact same advice to a friend of mine yesterday.

 

[templar_x]

@ undertoad - Spoonwood has covered the facts about SFs very thoroughly, providing valuable advice. i have very little to add:

Do you hook up a Luxury first?

If I have one within the capital's radius MAYBE, but that doesn't happen all too often.

just adding the reasoning here, although SW has already covered it: i would not bother hurrying to connect the lux soon either, because while you´ll need to get the shields for the SF from the worked tiles, you can simply raise the slider to keep everyone happy. thus the workers have to swing their shovels for more mines.

What do you put in the factory town, apart from the Granary of course?

Nothing else. Just the granary.

in the rare case that even a combo factory is possible, i will add a rax after some time so i get vet units.

My tests have been failing because I was (over-optimistically) hoping that I could set up factories pretty much from the word go. It seems I need

a) Pottery

You can pre-build the granary with barracks, the Pyramids, a temple, or a settler. Given a game with no or sedentary barbarians you definitely can start setting up a settler factory from 4000 BC, and generally speaking I would say that you should do so (if you want to play as optimally as you can), or at least as soon after you've put out a scout or two and perhaps ONLY ONE settler.

the only point where i contradict. i´ll build up to as many settlers first as i see REALLY STRONG further city sites, eg capable of settler or worker factories by themselves (including corruption).
in most cases, this means none or one, but in rare occasions this may mean up to three settlers first. see SirPlebs famous Sid game for when i think this would be appropriate. for most starts though, i admit this is academic.

templar_x

 

[Spoonwood]

i´ll build up to as many settlers first as i see REALLY STRONG further city sites, eg capable of settler or worker factories by themselves (including corruption).
in most cases, this means none or one, but in rare occasions this may mean up to three settlers first. see SirPlebs famous Sid game for when i think this would be appropriate. for most starts though, i admit this is academic.

I've done that too (and thought it best) come to think of it, but I agree that's pretty rare. And I mean rare in comparison to getting a 5 fpt start for your capital.

 

[del62]

Interesingly there is a possibility of a five turn settler factory when you have no specific food bonus but have 3 flood plains and 3 bg round your capital in despotism, I doubt this would work outside of capital due to corruption

 

[Aabraxan]

Spoonwood has pretty well covered it. I'll just add:

1) Turn 1 is when I start thinking about 'em.

2) Just a granary, except in the cases that I can work out a combo factory. I can only think of a handful of cases where I've used one of these, but we had one in "Gma02: First Come, First Severed," if you're interested in reading about the whole team trying to make that thing work. It was a 4-turn combo that produced a warrior on Turn 1, then a settler on Turns 2 through 4.

3) As far as keeping the factory happy, it's mostly a self-correcting problem, but I'd agree that the lux slider is probably the way to go for those turns in which happiness is a problem. Once those settlers get out and set up new cities, hopefully you'll be able to grab some luxes to help with that.

4) Mining grassland -- As long as you're in Despo, it doesn't do you any good to irrigate it. That just triggers the despo penalty, and you get nothing for the worker turns invested.

 

[undertoad]

Excellent advice everyone, thank you!

Looks like I have a whole new opening-game to try out, quite apart from settler factories themselves:

a) Mine grassland (which, I think, means even more Workers than I generally make at the moment)
b) Use the Luxury slider.

It's amazing what habits you can get into as a Civ-player, and how they stick.

 

[Hellfiredoom]

One comment to add, is I "cheat" when starting a new game. I will reroll the map until I get a great starting location, ie. 2 bonus tiles and on a river for my capital/future settler factory.

I don't like micro-managing citizens each turn so usually limit myself to Monarch games (with the occaisional game at Emporer), so disorder typically isn't a problem. If it becomes one, then I look at hooking up luxuries or adding MPs in the capital.

 

[undertoad]

To alll: Holy Cow-on-a-Grassland Batman! This tactic is unbelievable!

I realise what's always annoyed me about the early game is how the AI seems to be able to churn out settlers and settle every available space, much faster than me. Not now....

In my current game, OK, I rerolled the map just as Hellfiredoom says until I got a decent start. But what a start: capital location with cow-on-grassland and cow-on-plains, both next to a river.

It does take seemingly ages to set up a settler-factory, but that's just because the early game takes ages anyway. Nothing gets researched or built for hundreds of years. Anyway, I went for Writing first, aiming for Philosophy; felt very primitive for quite a few centuries, but then carried on to Philosophy (which, for some reason, is much cheaper than Writing - and it can't be because it was well-known, given I was first to it), got a free tech; after a few tech-trades I not only had Pottery but was numero uno in science.

My capital Athens was pre-building a Barracks for a Granary; one turn away from completion, what happens? An SGL, for Philosophy I think! So I got the Pyramids instead of a Granary.

Now it's not just because of the Pyramids, since I hardly built Settlers in any other city apart from the capital (maybe 2): but I ended up with 14 cities without even waving a stick at other civs in war. Simply because my capital was a fantastic 4-turn Settler Factory. It was working so perfectly I was reluctant to switch it off - but at a certain point, all the land was settled, and it was time to start a few wars (and by this time, fringe cities were grown-up enough to build the occasional Settler quickly themselves, to fill gaps left by auto-razed enemy cities).

I realise now that my previous early-game habit was trying too hard to let my core (Cities 1,2 and maybe 3) grow, while building Settlers and Workers from the fringe cities. Settler Factory or not, this now seems like a terrible tactic. No wonder I always had a shortage of Settlers, trying to build them in tiny, outlying cities with few or no improvements. I think this tactic is a hangover from an old addiction I had to getting a Wonder started early - which itself is actually something I got over years ago!

I don't like micro-managing citizens each turn so usually limit myself to Monarch games (with the occaisional game at Emporer), so disorder typically isn't a problem. If it becomes one, then I look at hooking up luxuries or adding MPs in the capital.

I got quite into the micro-management this game. I mean, there's so little to do in the early game... Not on your level, I'm still at Regent. I found it fun swapping citz around/making scientists on short contracts to avoid wasting shields, avoid producing a Worker/Settler just before growing, avoid civil disorder, or make the most of shields during my GA. Even let a city starve enough to empty its food box (but not quite shrink) just to suck every last double-shield out of the GA.

Spoonwood, your advice about the luxury slider is excellent - something else I'd never done before. A simple 10% rate saw me right right up to the current date of 300AD, when I have a few Temples in the larger cities, 3 luxuries, and am working on JS Bach's.

 

[Bucephalus]

It was working so perfectly I was reluctant to switch it off .

Once a SF has served it's purpose, it can then become a 2-turn worker factory, to either be used for tile improvements or added to slower growing cities.

 

[templar_x]

maybe even better, with the tiles available you mentioned (grass cow and plains cow), in Rep you might even manage a 1-turn-worker factory!

if i count correctly, with no other food bonuses around, you´d need 3 additional irrigated bonus grasses plus one mined bg plus a spare forest tile - and voilá! 1 worker each and every turn at size 6-7. an extremely powerful instrument.

templar_x

 

[Hellfiredoom]

...you might even manage a 1-turn-worker factory!

 

[Spoonwood]

Glad I could help. The capital as a worker factory for a while definitely can help also. Though you might want to balance how many workers it produces against it producing infrastructure/units since the capital doesn't experience any corruption.

 

[DWetzel]

I miss my three turn settler factory with a size 1 city from one of the GOTM. (Longevity was involved.)

 

[Lord Emsworth]

maybe even better, with the tiles available you mentioned (grass cow and plains cow), in Rep you might even manage a 1-turn-worker factory!

if i count correctly, with no other food bonuses around, you´d need 3 additional irrigated bonus grasses plus one mined bg plus a spare forest tile - and voilá! 1 worker each and every turn at size 6-7. an extremely powerful instrument.

templar_x

*rummages*

Spoiler :

 

[Aabraxan]

Niiiice, Lord E!

 

[Hellfiredoom]

That's awesome. I now have a new "cool thingy" to shoot for in future games.

 

[mikenine1962]

Undertoad, starting new games for favourable luxuries and rivers etc is a tactic I've used.
I would add the Ottomans have an advantage of more golden ages and aquiring leaders from battles than most other countries.
At regent level you should also be get up to 2 other free settlers from approaching minor settlements after building your first city and before have any attack units. Also approach these minor settlements diagonally ( I've also noticed diagonal approaches to attacking enemy units is more effective than attacking from the side (with the exception from attacking from above) ).

I don't recommend you try to win more than 3 games at any level because the tactics that work at one level, aren't effective at the next level.

 

[mikenine1962]

Also, warm climate player set up gives more productive land, and also it pays to adjust the 'contact governor' option to ticking manage citizens moods and emphasise food , everything else is better un licked. Accelerated production works too. For small world set up the 5 weakest countries appear to be England Netherlands Spain Portugal and Arabia.