SG for people wanting to move up to prince/improve their game

[bestsss]

Guys you have jumbos, seriously. Settle the gold (should have been 1st I think), tech construction and wipe them.
On a side note: you can kill Wang w/ cover archers but don't do that, it doesn't work on higher difficulties unless you use unrestricted leaders w/ Mali (like Churchill of Mali).
Should have worked the cows in the copper city and last which is very important: when you rush, chop and whip.

Good luck!

 

[mlinneak]

I believe I am up now, correct?

I can't look at the save until I get home from work tonight, but depending on discussion I can either play when I get home, or tomorrow.

My goal will be to build up our axemen and if I can complete the 7-8 recommended by mrt309 attempt the rush on WK. I will review the save when I get home and see if there is anything else pressing. I agree we need to settle the gold spot soon but I don't know if I will get to it in my set or not.

Recommendations on techs and builds from the team would be appreciated

 

[Cialite]

Just Axemen really I guess(And a barracks in Damascus?) through chopping and whipping. For tech maybe Alphabet? So we can start trading with Charlemagne(If we get him more friendly I guess.) Or beeline CoL to get courthouses for our large empire after we take down Korea and continue to settle the land we have.

I also think that after Korea, we should send a city up north to block off Charlemagne. So we can settle a little more peacefully.

A bit more long term, we should get to Construction, and build loads of catapults for when(if?) we attack Charlemagne.

 

[mrt309]

Charlemagne's scout came from north. It seems we are alone with Wang on south part of continent. After destroying him, we need to found a blocking city. But building an army is priority now. I guess we need about 8 axes. There may be 2-3 archers protecting Wang's capital. And he will probably have 3 cities when we attack.

We have 2 workers. One of them is building pasture near Mecca(2 turns to complete). He can be used to chop forest on riverside plain hills and build a mine.

Other worker is building road on rice tile in Damascus. A road from there to Mecca makes it easy to bring axes near Wang's border. He can also build camp on ivory tile.

We can whip monument in Damascus next turn. It might be a good idea to build barracks there first. But i thought getting 1 more ivory tile and floodplains quickly would be better.

Mecca reached to happy cap and will grow again 2 turns later. But there won't be unhappy faces because 1 unhappiness from whipping barracks will end 2 turns later also.

Working the pasture instead of copper mine is better in Medina.

Tech wise: We can go for alphabet or IW (to reveal iron and make a better dot map) or priesthood (if we will try the oracle) or Aesthetics -> Literature (to get great library early)

We should settle gold city and spam cottages after war.

 

[Cam_H]

Although the focus is "Axes! Axes! Axes!", if you're going to whip Mecca a lot, you need a Granary. It will save you a heap of time and will pay off.

Furthermore, you really need at least one more Worker. I'd suggest considering getting Funky Cold Medina up to two population (as seems to be the view, work the Cows) and interrupt the Axe build with a Worker.

 

[mlinneak]

Ok, I played 10. Due to the detour for granaries, however I was not able to complete building up the force of axemen.

1600 BC - IT
MM Medina to work pasture instead of copper

1560 BC
Mecca - Axeman -> Granary - Granaries make whipping so much more efficient so I ended up building them in all three of our cities, hope that was ok.
Whip the monument in Damascus for 1 pop w/ 9 overflow
Take out a barb warrior with our axeman in the south

1520 BC
Damascus - Monument -> Granary
Stonehenge BIFL
Start roading Damascus to Mecca
Whip granary in Mecca for 2 pop w/ 26 overflow

1480 BC
Mecca - Granary -> Axe

1440 BC
Nothing noteworthy

1400 BC
Writing in, enabling the Madrassa

Select IW, due in 23 turns
Mecca - Axe -> Axe
Medina - Axe -> Granary - There was no garrison in this city so I fortified this axe here for now.

1360 BC
Nothing noteworthy

1320 BC
WK requests open borders. Since we plan on attacking him soon I decline.

1280 BC
Mecca - Axe -> Axe

1240 BC
Whip granary in Medina for 1 pop w/ 12 overflow, it will grow back to 2 pop next turn

1200 BC
Medina - Granary -> Axe
Stop here

Mecca is unhappy. It is configured for production, and has 2 turns left of whip unhappy. It will grow again in 3 turns. The current axeman will finish in 2 bringing the total axes ready for WK to 6 (we have 7 but one is still in garrison mode in Medina).
I suggest letting this axe finish then either select a Madrassa to whip ASAP -or- configure the city for growth and select another Axeman to be whipped for 2 population.

I had Damascus set to growth but it can be switched to the ivory tile for production if preferred. It still does not have a barracks.

Our cities:

The west is explored a little more:

Our troops are mustering:

I had them gather at the corner of WK's borders because I though a diagonal entrance would advance our troops deeper into his territory upon declaration of war.

The save ~

 

[mrt309]

About whipping axeman:

An axeman costs 35 hammers. To be able to whip it for 2 pops without penalty we must put less than 5 hammers on it in first turn of production.

We can do it like that:

After completing the last axeman in Mecca, we can start on a madrassa:

Spoiler :

1 turn later, add another axeman and change working tiles to drop base production below 5:

Spoiler :

1 turn later, we can whip for 2 populations without penalty:

Spoiler :

And finally we have a whipped axeman, no unhappiness and just a few turns left to complete madrassa:

Spoiler :

Do you think this is a good tactic?

 

[EwIck]

sorry I've been busy elsewhere for some time
you did good so far, though the whipping could have been better
I would however have accepted the open borders to scout the land first and see just how big his army is. in one game I did that and thought I'd attack later with cats but oh look, he doesn't even have archers, just 2 lonely warriors / city? boom, 2nd axeman rush and 2nd civ out on turn 96.
I'd open borders with him and position to steal the worker, which we have not seen ever. Unless I'm mistaken, you can open borders and declare on the very next turn.

 

[mrt309]

I think we have a small problem guys. mlinneak played from 1600 BC to 1200 BC. 400 years = 10 turns. But each player plays 20 turns before 1 AD i think. So how will we do now?

 

[mlinneak]

Sorry about that - I don't know why I thought I was only supposed to play 10 turns. I can either play another 10, or the next two in line can add 5 each to their turnsets or something like that. Let me know what you guys think.

 

[EwIck]

Sorry about that - I don't know why I thought I was only supposed to play 10 turns. I can either play another 10, or the next two in line can add 5 each to their turnsets or something like that. Let me know what you guys think.

I say just play 10 more turns, we've had our 20-turn round each, you deserve yours too
then we can play 10 turns each

 

[Cialite]

Good set so far,
yeahI agree that you should play the 10 turns

 

[mlinneak]

Finished Set ~

1200 BC Continued
Open borders with WK as recommended and send an axeman in to scout - notice that WK has three total cities as both P'yongyang and Wonsan are listed in the trade menu.

1160 BC
Nothing noteworthy

1120 BC
Mecca Axe -> Madrassa

1080 BC
Switch Madrassa in Mecca to Axe and configure for <5 production
Get a good view of Korean lands

1040 BC
Medina Axe -> Axe
Whip Axe in Mecca for 2 pop w/33 overflow that goes into the Madrassa

1000 BC
Workers complete an ivory camp increasing our happy cap

975 BC
Nothing noteworthy

950 BC
Nothing noteworthy

925 BC
Whip granary in Damascus for 2 pop w/26 overflow

900 BC
Damascus granary -> barracks
WK completes the Great Wall

875 BC
Stop here abruptly - I see this is an uneven year. Did I count incorrectly? I saw the time between years switched from 40 to 25. With my starting turn at 1560 BC this would be the 20th turn but I am not sure if my count was off somehow.
I moved one axeman. All other units have full turns available now.
We need to discuss: WK used slavery to complete the Great Wall. I know this because when I passed his capital earlier he had 5 pop, and now he has only 3. You can also see this in the screen shots. This may be a good time to strike as he will not be able to as readily whip more defensive units what with the lower population.
We can currently see his military,
Seoul - 1 Archer CG2 Drill1, 1 Warrior CR1
P'yongyang - 1 Archer CG1 Drill1, 1 Warrior, 1 Worker
Wonsan - 1 Warrior C1, 1 Warrior
He has no copper. Here is a lay of the land:

We have a barbarian warrior attempting to threaten our axeman stack
We have 9 axemen to attack, but they are not all in position. One is up by P'yongyang and one is on the way still from Medina, and one by Seoul of course would be moved... somewhere when we DoW. I still think it might be a good idea to strike now, since he cannot very well whip defenders as easily now that he already used his population for the Great Wall, but I wanted to get opinions from the group.
Here is a rundown of our cities as well ~

Mecca
Stagnated. Whip unhappiness fades in 4 turns then the city could grow again. I did hire a scientist but this can be changed if not optimal.

Medina
Configured for production, it will produce 1 axeman in only 3 turns. We may want to slot in a worker next though, as we still only have 2, but this could be decided as we see how the war is going as well.

Damascus
Will have its barracks in 6 turns or it can be whipped for 1 pop w/13 overflow. It is below happy cap so this should be doable. I suggest cottaging the floodplains since we could use the commerce, but a farm may be preferrable.

And the new save ~

 

[mrt309]

I agree. It's a good time to attack. After taking Wang's capital, we'd better raze other 2 poorly placed cities.

After researching IW and war we can make a good dot map and settle cities.

Tech path: IW -> Fishing(to work coastal tiles in Medina) and/or Alphabet

 

[mlinneak]

Thank you, mrt309.

I completely forgot about noting that we needed fishing sooner rather than later - I was concerned about it during my set but since I was trying to use the high production tiles it wasn't a big issue. That city needs a lighthouse though.

Upon DoW, it will take two turns to get our main offensive stack next to his capital, perhaps on the hill to get the defensive bonus. He has two corn farms though, hopefully he won't be able to grow and whip before we can attack. There is also a road on the wine 1W of the capital where he can reinforce from his other cities, but the only ones I would be concerned about are the CG archers.

 

[EwIck]

I agree, we need to attack now and pillage the horses with the warrior before he gets chariots, otherwise our efforts are futile. we don't have enough axes (yet) to take down all 3 cities unless we get a good roll of dice. we should take the capital and heal there until our other axes join in. That archer in the capital is killer.
BTW, don't you have the turn # displayed next to the current year? My default install shows it and it is indeed turn 80. Maybe your mod turns it off, somehow.
So whose turn is it now?

 

[mlinneak]

you did good so far, though the whipping could have been better

Whipping is not my strong point. Honestly, I just downloaded BUG this last summer for the first time and had my first experiences with whipping after reading about all the benefits in these forums. I never used the slavery civic before, which is probably why I never progressed my SP games past noble - I never tried to because I felt intimidated
At least here I have people play before and after me to help me learn more optimal ways to play. SGs have helped tremendously.
For the whipping I was more concerned about building up excessive unhappiness that would get passed on to the next player and tried to measure them out carefully. Another thing I have a hard time with is using chops for anything except wonders, or really high hammer buildings that are needed immediately. I worry that once the forest is chopped it is gone forever and I might put the production in something less than necessary.

But thank you for the feedback guys, seriously these SG discussions help out so much, and I am learning so much from everyone.

It would help as well, though, if you include what I could have done better (more whips, or was it just poor timing?) for next time.

 

[Cam_H]

lurker's comment:

You're in a good position.

You've made a commitment to rush with an Axe attack, and I think your army is large enough to take out Wang. i.m.h.o. you should declare within two turns before he starts spamming Archers or Chariots (agree on the pillage of the Horse Pasture). You're still building Axes, but I think you'll be darn unluky if you can't do it with what you have. When you saw Wang had Horses you might have built a Spear or two for your Axe stack (?). Seoul is on Grasslands (not Hills), so you shouldn't expect outrageous casualties (I hope!). Remember to promote your units before attacking!

Not sure why you're constructing a Barracks in Damascus as it strikes me as a commerce city in the making (a lot of you seem to think it's a good idea, so maybe you have different plans for it than cottage-cottage-cottage).

You'll probably capture Workers, but you only have two for three cities, and could be laying down Cottages and doing chops with more. I think more Workers are a priority.

I agree with mrt309 regarding razing the two western Korean cities. City maintenance could become very problematic if you were to keep all three and then add two cities to the north (Gold and blocking ... both with distance issues too) on top of your three existing cities.

I'm looking forward to seeing how this unfolds!

 

[Cialite]

Good set, ive only just recently started to whip, it makes me feel kinda bad though

I think we should go in there straight away as everyone says. We should get Seoul at least. Wonsan could prove problematic if he manages to build and whip two archers, thanks to the hill, so maybe we should go straight after that once we take Seoul?

All while building axemen to send in to aid in taking the 3rd city(P'yongyang?) as by then I assume our current forces will be injured/killed by then.

 

[mlinneak]

I don't remember who is up next, but I think you may want to go ahead and declare war on the inherited turn. Since he just whipped his capital to finish the Great Wall, it will be almost like catching him with his pants down, so to speak.
If you wait too many turns, he will be able to grow back and whip more protective archers in the two turns it will take to advance on his capital.

As far as the barracks in Damascus goes, I queued it because it was recommended or agreed upon by the team. Even if we turn Damascus into a commerce city, it won't hurt it to have the barracks. That will allow it to add to our troops if needed in a pinch.