SG Lurkers, ready?

[Luv_Muffin]

Nice turn.
Quite happy to see that the cows were released at Angle.
Now we can grow that city in a way that can be maintained.
Surprised that Gao isn't further along in building the Theatre.
During my turn, it dropped to the twenties. You put a specialist to work, and it increased it's build time to something in the thirties? Weird! But I see it is growing soon, so maybe the extra pop will balance it all out.

Did you get a look at our stats? Woot!
1st in land area, 2nd in production, 2nd in food, 4th in population!
We are grinding our way to the top. Nice score too!
Military still is embarrasing, but it's been that way since the stone age. Ha ha.
We are behind now by 53000 (8th). My turn we were behind 38625 (8th).
Not your fault either, a longbow was produced during your turn as well.
Hmmm, I guess the war between Cyrus and Monty will have changed the bell curve on us. Smooth move, getting engineering too.

Once Angle finished the courthouse, will it be cranking out some military for us? Should get at least a few more spearmen at our borders (Alex has ivory), and some longbows. Missionaries would be nice too. Maybe Blackluck will get a missionary in at Gao on his turn. (10 turns takes longer these days, but you still can't do everything you'd like to, can you?)

As for our Great Merchant. You know what I've been toying with in my slimey little mind? Could we use him to gain intelligence? I mean, do we have a route north, with open border agreements, that would allow us to walk this chap north to Cyrus? The trade income would be huge, but it would also open up a lot of the map for us*. If not, I'd like to see if we can take a run at a medium range civ. (Monty is out). How about HC? I agree, the SG should make a decision about his use.
* it would be nice too if some civ's decided to give us their world map when we get paper.

The Bank at Timbuktu should bring in a tidy sum for us. Timbuktu had been giving us 70 gold, a bank should boost that even higher. Maybe we can get back to 80-90% research soon, as other civs are fighting wars.

Too bad about Besancon. It ain't over yet though, Djenne is going to keep pushing on that border. Wait and see I guess. Maybe once Walata gets more culture, Besancon will fall under a two pronged culture attack.

Talking about borders, Anjar is looking like it will be absorbed into our flock soon. All they have is some trees, and some coast to work with now.

On a completely different topic, the1.52 Patch is now available for download.
We patching before Blackluck starts the next round of turns?

 

[Blackluck]

On a completely different topic, the1.52 Patch is now available for download.
We patching before Blackluck starts the next round of turns?

I think so! I know Liq has had some crash problems, so maybe the optimizations will help with that. I'll pretty sure I'll be able to get my turn set in tonight.

Thanks for stopping by, Percinho. We'll keep your seat warm

Nice job Scowler with using specialist. I'm still learning my way with those.

I'll endeavor the head our merchant North; I'll check to see who we have open borders with ... I'll try to find the biggest capital I can.

The Malinese Breeding Program appears to be a rousing success
For Anjar to flip, wonder if we need to get Pigpen's culture higher? First things first though, I'll try to get some pikeman build. There must be some mighty big military stacks out there

Until we hear from Greggo, we'll put him on MIA/hiatus, although if you're reading Greggo you're more than welcome to take your turn.

 

[Scowler]

Gosh yes, that bit with the Globe Theatre is weird. I think my intention was to prioritize growth and then switch back to production afterwards, but was half-asleep and dreaming about farms at that stage... My bad.

Good idea 'bout the merchant.

Wonder how long it will be before Monty or Cyrus invites us to join their little war. And who else will get dragged in?

By the way, notice how Monty's score has jumped? I think something has been going on just to our north. There were some odd-looking borders to the west of Nappy's city. Or maybe I'm just jumping at shadows.

I think I might have to go on hiatus until after Christmas - anyway I'd like to give the patch a couple of days before I install it. But I'll be following this thread closely in the meantime, of course.

 

[Liquidated]

liq is beat tired... HAD to update game to 1.52 as I was crashing without even doing anything in one of my SG's late game.

yell at liq when turn is up cause liq is beat tired.

Cheers!
-Liq

all is GOOOOOODDDDDDDDDDDD after patch.

 

[Blackluck]

Get some rest, Liq, there be war in the air (btw, you playing eq1 or 2?) And Scowler skipped til 28th. Check!

I was looking at the save in the small hours this a.m., and I noticed a lot of unused river terrain in our south. What does the team thinking of plopping a city here?

There's nine unused river tiles there, including nice productive plains hill. There'd be quite a bit of overlap with Gao and Djenne, but it would still grow to size 12 our so; it would be able to produce military, commerce, etc for us and might come in handy down the road.

edit: Monty doing well is a scary proposition.
There is turmoil to the North. It'd be interesting to see what's going on. Nappy is looking squeezed, too. While we can't declare war, what do you all think of joining in if asked?

 

[Luv_Muffin]

I'd be okay with planting a river at red dot if we use it as a filler city. Only allow it to use the 'free' tiles, and then lock it down maybe? Nothing wrong with a few extra medium size cities, imo. It would be smart too, to have a road from Djenne to Gao, strategically. Clever spotting, Blackluck.

Now Gao has the Global Theatre down into the teens? lol. What a weird city.

As for Monty, I don't know. Need intel, I think. Are we going to allow ourselves to get involved in a war? What will we fight with? We have no offensive capability to speak of, any units built short-term are desperately needed to properly defend what we already have. I'll let BlackLuck decide if getting involved in other peoples wars is in the spirit of our non-declaration rule for the SG. If we do go to war, I want tanks. Even some Knights would be nice.

Personally, I think that our resources would be better spent sending out our preachers, converting more cities, than going to war for unknown returns.
At least start the converting, so that we can get a better view of the other civ's cities is my suggestion. However, do whatever you feel is in our best interest Blackluck. While playing the game, you may get an offer you feel you cannot refuse from Don Montezuma and his syndicate of Budhist kneecappers.

On another note, is it time to drag that spearman off the tile east of Djenne? A spearman is getting outdated, unless we upgrade him again to a pikeman, he is currently a little vulnerable. Maybe we could retire him to a city (Walata, Kumbi, Shaggy?), and replace him with an upgraded unit?
I've been thinking that if we decide not to build a new city west of Kumbi, North of PigPen, how about building the rarest of improvements, the "awe inspiring" fort? It would dominate that pass area. We could garrison it with a few defenders, and a handfull of cavalry. While it wouldn't block the pass, it would dominate it. And if someone tried to sneak past it, it would be in range of attack from the forts cavalry and Pigpen/Kumbi units. Take a look, and see if it is doable. (Do not want the border so close that it can be absorbed by Saladin though, that would be a step backwards) East of the river, three tiles west of Kumbi? There is currently trees there, the cut would be returned to Kumbi. Or should we just build another city?

Red Dot is suggested "Fort of Doom" site. Just an idea, no worries if we don't do it.

Does PigPen have any workers building water mills or workshops? It is a very good city, production just bites though. And there are a lot of cities now that I sent a missionary to in our empire, extra monestaries might be handy in some of them for culture.

Good luck, Blackluck! Have a good turn, have fun with it.
Scowler has us sitting pretty. Now just run with it, I suppose.

Edit: Muffin is patched, had my morning coffee and am having a good hair day. Just in case you were all wondering...

 

[Blackluck]

Nice thoughts, L_M (and love your icons!)

If we can get the cash from the merchant, I'm thinking of upgrading our promoted horse archers to knights. I'll take a look at our military and try to replace outdated, non-promoted ones with well new ones.

I was pondering joining a war to get some units promoted (I think I've only ever once build West Point, for example.) But, you're right LM, we're probably not in a position ... especially if Saladin gets antsy.

Believe it or not, I thought of putting a fort in the exact same spot I've never build one of those. What's the defense bonus on one? Hopefully it's more than 50%

Maroon dot is definitely a filler city, but those rivers would make it a nice one I think. It can wait, but something to ponder in the nearish future.

I get out of work early today, and after doing some chores and such I be playing. Should be up early this evening barring unforeseen circumstances.

 

[Blackluck]

First thing I do is patch.

Load the game ...

We're now making 9 gpt vs 24 gpt.
Education that had been due in 10 is now due in 12.
Units can be build faster (for instance, pre patch in low production Pigpen, a knight took 20 turns, now takes 16.)

I've read Civics are much higher, so I may need to switch from Organized (high upkeep) to Theocracy ... however, we don't have a single unit in the queue for a build.

Also, no building has a build time ... before I hit enter though I start the Great Merchant on his trek towards Persia.

Oh yeah, going to see if I can get a map, too.

Cyrus has resources to trade, but our furs are going to Nappy and the Inca for gpt; Nappy is only 2 gpt. Let's see if I can renegotiate that ..

Ha! Looks like Napeleon has a bit of trouble in the military department.

Fear my chariot?!

Napolean no longer appears to be the threat he was in ancient times; still, I'd like to keep good relations if possible, but Cyrus has some health resources we can use.

I cancel the fur trade to Napaleon.
Doesn't hurt relations.

Let's do some trading:

Nappy is cautious to Cyrus ... Cryus has some health resources we can use.
Fur to Cyrus for clams.

Now time to see if I can get a world map ..

Only way I can get a world map is by trading Guilds.
We don't have a monopoly on it, the Inca also have it (they do not have philosophy, but I don't want to give that to the HC as he is probably our main competitor for Liberalism).
HC and Cyrus are pleased/friendly with each other. How long before HC trades guilds to Persia?
I decide to trade it to Cyr for 150 gp and his world map. Hopefully this isn't
If it is, please let me know!

Oh! check this out!
(screen aha! Now I know why I'm losing screen shots. I pasted the Foreign Advisor screen, but didn't save it. Alt tabbed back to game, came back ... no more screen shot!) At any rate, the foreign advisor screen now lists how much gold each civ has available for trade.

Ok, check this out!

Persopolis is only size 11 ... however, we can walk our merchant there (we have no caraval) and it is quite far. We won't get much (I'm guess around 1400?) but well we can still use it.)

There is nothing else to trade for; Cyrus is now pleased with us too.

I hit enter.

Turn 1: 1330
Now I know why I couldn't see how long buildings took to complete; I go back into options and turn 'detailed city info' back on

Pigpen completes ****; no longer unhealthy. Very tough choice here.
More culture? Revenue? Units? Forge?

I decide on a castle. Protection plus a bit of culture (forge takes 20 turns, too long imo)

Since this is a food rich/hammer poor town, a worker starts on a *gasp* workshop on a plains square. (I rarely build this improvement) +2 hammers, -1 food. (I wrote this before I saw L_M's edit of the post above heh)

Angle worker crew (3 of em, wow)
Waterwheel or farm?
I don't want to chop all the forests here, it will need production. Water wheels are quite nice later on, but right now only add +1 hammer, so I adhere to the Malinese Breeding Program and make a farm. I believe Angle will be set for farms after this ....

Naggy has more improved tiles than it's using; however, one worker begins a farm on the northern border since he's right there, send the other towards a forest.

Timbuktu starts a two turn Hindu Missionary.

Turn 2: 1335
Another forest is chopped (we are voracious in that department ) however the shields go all the way to Walata instead of Gao. Interesting.

I was going to make a cottage at naggy (consuming even more trees) but I think it's going to need those woods for production (it's very low on hammers) so instead I find another forest to chop that's not inside any cities boundaries.

Angle completes courthouse; no change in revenue. Starts a ... catapult!

IT: Saladin and Hatty reach peace.
Both adopt Bureacracy, Hatty adopts Pacifism.

Turn 3: 1340
Saladin cancels fur for silk.
Check out those modifies.

Will this mean war soon? Nervous.

Timbuktu finishes Missionary.
I start Hagia Sophia ... not for the increased worker speed but:
1) If we don't get it (and I don't think we will, takes 28 after a bit of MM turns) we can use the cash and
2) If we do get it, we get some Great Engineer gp points; right now Timbuktu has a 66% chance at generating Great Prophets, which will soon be ... not very valuable. Feel free to veto.

Toku is the first to circumnavigate the world.

 

[Blackluck]

Civics:
Organized, 53 gold
Theorcracy, 49
Pacifism 37

We still have many structures being built.
I decide to stay on Organized for the time being. A bit more cash in the treasury, than I'll increase science. We are at +29 gpt at 70%; we would be down -8 at 80%.

Stupidly, I forgot the workers in Angle were chopping trees, so I insta build that 'pult.


Turn 4: 1345
Well, doesn't this blow?

Guess we're next on Monty's list. So be it.
I reject his empty threats!

Angel completes 'pult; I send it west as I think Saladin and/or Monty now pose a problem

Start on Pikeman.

Djenne completes Aquaduct; begins castle.
Walata worker start on water wheel on French border; cottage/farm better choice here? I don't know!

Angle workers start Djenne -Naggy road through the forests.
Great Merchant continues the long trek to Persia.

Turn science to 80%, now losing -5. Education due in 7
Hindu spread to Gao

Turn 5: 1350
Djenne -- finishes Castle, begins Knight (in 3)
This is a great town ... after the knight maybe back to infra?
I think the National Epic should go to Gao.

Turn 6: 1355
Shaggy done with Courthouse, begin Caraval (we have no navy whatsoever)

Worker completes road to Djenne, moves towards Timubkutu to chops more trees! (outside city limites)

Walata worker ... chops tree on grassland hill (plan windmill here)


Turn 7: 1360:

Yay!

Gao begins longbow; lots of choices here, but needs at least one more defender to protect from naval invasion.

Worker begins roading towards Djenne (I'm looking to have good routes between all our cities)

Another worker begins farm on river at Gao

Turn 8-9: 1365 1370

We're screwed. Not going to get liberalism.
Hatty and the Inca are *up* on techs .. Divine Right, Music AND Education.
How the heck did they get banking too?

(in fact a lot of the rivals have education, but no one will trade)


I increase trade to 90 at -44 per.
Damnit. I screwed this up, folks, not paying attention to trades.


IT: Inca offer Rice for Sheep. Okies.


merchant makes it to Persoplis
1650 and :argh: forgot to save the screen.


I can't delete our spear guarding the corn!
My Little Pony!
I upgrade all our spears (all two of them!) to pikeman.

A lot of units are due in the next two turns.
We are losing -44 gpt at 90% science.
I revolt to theocracy for a very modest savings and to increase experience of newly ordered military coming online.

Knight complete, heads West.
Pike completes, heads towards Timbuktu.

I got interrupted towards the end of my turn, so I'll stop here.
Monty is having a Golden Age.
Education due in 1.
Might want to rethink deficit spending. I really don't think we're going to get Liberalism first.
I have no idea how they trumped us.
I didn't do this, but maybe MM'ing so we work all our commerce will increase our science research rate.
No one declared war, surprised me.

(Nice additional information here)

Summary:
Build some military; I tried to build a good mixture. Probably should have build another 'pult. Also completed some defensive structures on the border towns.
Almost done with military road net.

Overall I'm not pleased with my turn set.

edit: View attachment 108699

 

[Blackluck]

Turn order:
Blackluck -- finis
Liquidated -- up
Luv_Muffin -- chomping at the bit
Scowler -- skip til '28
Percinho -- skip
Sir Toma -- on hold
Greggo -- MIA

 

[Luv_Muffin]

Luv_Muffin -- chomping at the bit

Heh heh.

What do you mean you're not happy with your turn set?
Remember that guy, whatshisname, who had civilians and specialists sitting in the cities doing nothing (like Gao, Angle etc..)? What a knewb he was, good thing I totally discovered his grievous errors! (Don't listen to scowler, he has troubles with his short term memory) I don't want to mention any names of course, but Blackluck, you did fantastic compared to that guy!
* The previous paragraph is actually complimentary. You have to take my word for it.

Okay, according to my math we are still 46875 behind in military, after a fairly productive military build-up. That was a gain of only 6125! Just how many troops a turn is the average civ putting out there I wonder? Yeesh! Nice effort though, Blackluck. I would have thought we'd see a bigger return than that.
Sweet news about Gao getting the wonder.

I wonder if now Anjar will fall into our laps?
Getting that map was a great move, now we know where we stand. Um... looks like we are surrounded, but I'd rather be us than Alex.
Ooops! Is that really Monty to our north? Really?
There are some huge cities up there! OMG

Good luck Liq, the game is afoot!

 

[Luv_Muffin]

I think Liq will need the savegame.

 

[Blackluck]

Heh heh.

What do you mean you're not happy with your turn set?

I wasn't paying attention to the trade screen and didn't realize how quickly Hatty and HC gained on us in tech. If I had paid attention, I probably would have switched to Pacificism (for the gain in gpt) and cranked up science while still earning money for emergency troop upgrades.

Or, building some monastaries, for instance, not only for culture but a science increase, or even some Jewish missionaries (so each of our cities have 2 religions) might have been better choices than castles. I dunno.
With our military dead last (still!, gads) it's tough making these decisions. Every turn I kept expecting to hear the horns of doom .... I just wish they'd get it over with already!

Remember that guy, whatshisname, who had civilians and specialists sitting in the cities doing nothing (like Gao, Angle etc..)? What a knewb he was, good thing I totally discovered his grievous errors! (Don't listen to scowler, he has troubles with his short term memory) I don't want to mention any names of course, but Blackluck, you did fantastic compared to that guy!
* The previous paragraph is actually complimentary. You have to take my word for it.

Thanks for that
One thing I still tend not to do, which Scowler does very well, is micro manage. Notice on Scowlers turn we climb the ladder, than on mine we slip?

Okay, according to my math we are still 46875 behind in military, after a fairly productive military build-up. That was a gain of only 6125! Just how many troops a turn is the average civ putting out there I wonder? Yeesh! Nice effort though, Blackluck. I would have thought we'd see a bigger return than that.

It's freakin' scary. I usually don't carry such a large standing army, but last? Last?!

Sweet news about Gao getting the wonder.

I wonder if now Anjar will fall into our laps?
Getting that map was a great move, now we know where we stand. Um... looks like we are surrounded, but I'd rather be us than Alex.
Ooops! Is that really Monty to our north? Really?
There are some huge cities up there! OMG
Good luck Liq, the game is afoot!

Monty started in productive lands. And he's got *another* golden age.
Scary.

 

[Blackluck]

Just poking around with the save.
Look what Nappy did:

!!!
The AI is really making interesting choices in this game.
We've been preparing for war, and they're fighting us with culture and economics

 

[Luv_Muffin]

Interesting.
Besancon, Nappy's new tiny city north of Djenne has the most culture in the world.
Was that a wonder rush-built, or did he use a culture bomb on us?
4000per bomb, 2000 extra culture... maybe both.
Nappy has oodles of culture.

Given our new perspective, our Empire is just average size, and we don't have especially fertile terrain (except pigpen).
Should we nix the fort idea, and plant a city there instead and another one at Blacklucks red dot to grab the extra land and population? Only Monty and Nappy would have more cities, the rest would have slightly less.
Missionaries would be nice, would like both monastaries, but we can't have it all. We should try though. But getting more Hindu converts will help too.
Monty is gathering all that loot from Budhism, if we could convert other empires to "Lurkerism", we might rob him of income we don't want him to have.

Nappy needs more Hindu missionaries to convert back to hinduism. Still would like Saladin to get missionaries too. Military, definately needs more numbers.
Okay, we were worse off a while ago. I say we keep grinding our way along, we have been on a roll recently. Great people are being produced, who knows where our path will take us? I'm thinking positive.

Djenne may be due for our next world class wonder.

 

[Liquidated]

I'll try and get to them tonight... just got off a rather ugly day/night of work.

Cheers!
-Liq

 

[Blackluck]

Interesting.
Besancon, Nappy's new tiny city north of Djenne has the most culture in the world.
Was that a wonder rush-built, or did he use a culture bomb on us?
4000per bomb, 2000 extra culture... maybe both.
Nappy has oodles of culture.

That's a culture bomb; it's 6000 culture on epic speed.

Given our new perspective, our Empire is just average size, and we don't have especially fertile terrain (except pigpen).
Should we nix the fort idea, and plant a city there instead and another one at Blacklucks red dot to grab the extra land and population? Only Monty and Nappy would have more cities, the rest would have slightly less.
Missionaries would be nice, would like both monastaries, but we can't have it all. We should try though. But getting more Hindu converts will help too.
Monty is gathering all that loot from Budhism, if we could convert other empires to "Lurkerism", we might rob him of income we don't want him to have.

I think a fort; a city there would incite Saladin. Btw, we can't convert Saladin's cities; he's not very pleased with us (i.e., we don't have open borders, plus he's a theocracy). He also has two offensive units stationed right at the border.

Nappy needs more Hindu missionaries to convert back to hinduism. Still would like Saladin to get missionaries too. Military, definately needs more numbers.
Okay, we were worse off a while ago. I say we keep grinding our way along, we have been on a roll recently. Great people are being produced, who knows where our path will take us? I'm thinking positive.
Djenne may be due for our next world class wonder.

Maroon dot could be a good missionary town. We might also consider making it 'cottage' land. (The financial AI civs spam those things (cottages), and in the late game gain tech at incredible rates)

Djenne is both high food and high hammer; it's our best city.
There aren't many Wonders left until we get to Industrial. France has build a ton. I've never seen Napolean in such a builder mode

Good luck, Liq!

 

[Luv_Muffin]

Maybe once Anjar is captured by culture, Saladin will chill out. Our borders aren't really all that close (except at Shaggy), most of our other cities are quite a ways away from his. Hmmm. Maybe we can lighten his mood with a few trades or something. Do we have any trades going right now that are resource for coin? We should drop those, and swap resources instead, I'm thinking. We might even spread our religion a little more.

Saladin, and Monty both have closed borders with us? I think we might be able to take Saladin if we continue to build our forces, but should avoid war with Monty. If we do get involved, I think having Nappy as a Hindu ally would be very important. We can demand that Nappy fight alongside us. (not a horrible risk demanding anything from him, he is pleased with us. If we can convert him, he will hate whomever attacks us anyway.) I think Toku is useless as an ally, except as a trading partner. But he ain't trading that much to us these days. HC has a few hindu cities too, Hmmm...

BTW: Castles add 1 culture, in addition to defense. Nothing to blow your skirt up, but the defensive bonus is very good for us atm. I built walls, you built castles, no wrong move there BL. I just have an eye on Scientific Method coming up, want our monestaries built before then. (We currently have more than I am used to, so I think we should be good)

The "what if's" and "maybe's" have me at the edge of my seat.
Good luck, Liq. I hope your work stops stressing you out.

It's X-mass eve, Lurker dudes! Santa will be mushing his dogsled around the eastern hemisphere by now.

I'll be 'nog'ging tonight I think, so if Liq finishes his turn today, you may see some real interesting moves by the Muffinator! Heh Heh.

 

[Luv_Muffin]

Hatty had Music back during my turn. HC already had banking when I was still researching it. I researched Theology, since almost everyone but us had it.

I assume they are trading with each other, but we have to do things the hard way.

*Oh, it says they "will trade", but they really weren't that serious about it.

 

[Liquidated]

eh skip me if you guys are bouncing to jump in... had to play out a late game domination SG since the patch actually allowed me to play it without crashing.

that + holidays kinda putting the crimp on me..

oh and EQ1, screw EQ2

I've not been able to raid like for 2 months from work and family over and they all think it's cause I'm playing civ lolol


if only I had that much civ quality time!

sigh.

Cheers!
-Liq'd