SG Lurkers, ready?

[Blackluck]

I agree here Scowler; I guess what I was trying to convey while its one thing to understand this abstractly, but another altogether to actively participate.

Just FYI, I'm not wedded to a culture victory by any means. At the same time, I may well be totally wrong that we can't achieve it. Given the map and aggressive neighbors, it's been a challenge as we've needed to maintain enough military to thwart possible aggression.

And, yes, I should have asked earlier about the tech choices we've made ... but (as explanation, not excuse) the sinus problems I've had due to weather, etc. has made it difficult for me to concentrate.

 

[Scowler]

Actually, that's a good point, Blackluck. This is a Lurker game, so active participation is itself a new experience!

One more comment I'd like to make is that I sometimes find it quite difficult following what it happening in the turn reports without some kind of visual reference. I'm not suggesting that everyone should post loads of screen shots, but it might be helpful for key situations such as founding cities, resource management, activities by a nearby enemy, and maybe an overview at the end. What do you think?

FWIW, I agree about the culture victory being unlikely at this stage. Is there any reason why we shouldn't consider a space victory? Given who are neigbours are, and their current attitudes, I think the diplomatic option may be a little ambitious? On the other hand, we should be able to build up a decent infrastructure for spaceship parts, assuming no world wars break out in the meantime...

 

[Blackluck]

One more comment I'd like to make is that I sometimes find it quite difficult following what it happening in the turn reports without some kind of visual reference. I'm not suggesting that everyone should post loads of screen shots, but it might be helpful for key situations such as founding cities, resource management, activities by a nearby enemy, and maybe an overview at the end. What do you think?

Yep!
I read my own turn logs and think "Gee, that's not a very good job of telling the story as I played it." Your logs are great; very clear picture of what's going on. Takes practice (and patience!)

FWIW, I agree about the culture victory being unlikely at this stage. Is there any reason why we shouldn't consider a space victory? Given who are neigbours are, and their current attitudes, I think the diplomatic option may be a little ambitious? On the other hand, we should be able to build up a decent infrastructure for spaceship parts, assuming no world wars break out in the meantime...

I think I disabled space victory ... but I'll have to check the game tonight to make sure.

 

[Liquidated]

culture victory is hard.

you have to min max alot of things in order to have a shot at 50kx3 cities by 1980.

Main problem is space race, if you turn that off, a ton of the weight of a culture victory is gone as you have another 50ish turns of your highest culture output.

I've learned a ton from mertz in the 3cc culture game I'm in and well you must have a game plan from turn one to play culture.

Being surrounded by enemies is really bad as they will outstrip you in tech 100% of the time, and as you get to 50k, they dog pile you.

Anyway, Imo just scrap the culture req and see if we cannot just muddle through this one lol. Prince + culture is really not trivial.

Cheers!
-Liq

 

[Luv_Muffin]

Start the game, take a look at what we're facing...

Oooh! Lurkers in at #2! We are still alive and kicking.
On the cultural front, Anjar is starting to feel the cultural squeeze.
Anjar's days are numbered. Nagasaki is feeling the squeeze from Toku as
well. Hmmm.

I see Shaggy still needs Hinduism, so I'll make a point of sending
a preacher that direction.
Have to tweak Kumbi, will grow now in nine instead of 22.

I spot something in the NE. Nappy is going to attempt to build a town near
Djenne? Good luck with that! Djenne's culture should eat whatever town he builds like a snack.

Check the info screen. 8th in military (*sigh*), 6th in population!
How about that? We are catching up faster than I anticipated! Will have
to continue this trend. Larger pop may be what keeps us in the game here.

Mouse hovers over the red button... *click*

 

[Luv_Muffin]

1. 1235 AD
Djenne finishes monastary, begins missionary.
Theatre built in Kumbi. Start on missionary.

2. 1240 AD
Guilds is finished. Start work on Banking. (We are back in 1st Place)

Shaggy starts work on work boat (we have optics, so we can now harvest
the whales).
Market finished in Angle. Start on Monestary.
Besancon founded north of Djenne, by Nappy. Hmmm.

HC now has Banking (we are researching it). He also has Theology.
Are we catching up, or falling behind?
Hatty has music/theo, some just have theo, and a few seem
to be our equals (Toku/Monty).
Farms have sprung up everywhere, all over our lands (thx liq). If I took a screenshot,
you could see it.

3. 1245 AD
Jewish Temple built in Naggy. Start on Granery.
Worker finished in Goa, start work on Jewish Monastary.
Harkuf (the Great Merchant), born in Timbuktu. Will hang onto him for
the SG to debate about his uses.

We are in first place, Monty is catching up quick.
* I've been thinking about dropping a settler west of Kumbi. There is a
lot of empty space there, and I'd rather us have a town gaurd the mountian
pass, than have Saladin place a city there. *Debatable*

5. 1250 AD
Theatre constructed in Walata (yay), start work on Granery (was in que)
Banking due in 4. (Still in 1st place)

6. 1255 AD
Djenne finishes missionary, starts on walls. (Defense for wonder-town)
Djenne's missionary heads to walata.
Monestary finished in Angle, start on Missionary.

7. 1260 AD
Timbuktu finishes Maceman, starts monestary.
I leave the maceman unpromoted, fortified in Timbuktu.
Moving a horse archer to Angle, just to give it some extra protection.
Move a horse archer from Shaggy, back to pigpen for same reason.
(Both cities were defended by a pair of units).
Hinduism spread to walata.
We are now #2 in land area, still #6 in population.
Banking due in 2. (Looking forward to it)
Cyrus is now in 1st Place. Dropped to #2, monty is right behind.
HC now has engineering. What's with that guy?

8. 1265 AD
Monestary finished in Gao. Start Globe Theatre (38 turns! Need to chop like I've never chopped before)
Walls finished in Djenne. Start on longbowman.
Missionary finished in Kumbi, start on Market. (it has 2 commerce, losing
six to maintenance). It will need chops too, and a bank will be nice.

It looks like Hatty may try for war.She has a Swordsman northwest of Shaggy, and refuses to talk to us.
Saladin also has a caravel in our waters, and he is annoyed with us too.
I promote Shaggy's skirmisher & swordsman to Longbow & maceman to counter this threat.

Banking due next turn!

9. 1270 AD.
Banking discovered!

Start work on Theology (quick 4 turns)
Everyone else has it, and it allows Theocracy.
Back in first place. *booty shake*
Maceman fortifies in Shaggy, allowed a promotion too, he already has city attack I & II.
Workers begin chopping the heck out of Gao, to gain that wonder.
It will be pure luck if we get it in time.
Hinduism spread to Nagasaki.
I must turn down research to 70%, but now that banking has arrived
I expect the coins to start rolling in.

Quite surprised that Anjar hasn't been feeling the squeeze for a while.
It has only lost one tile to our cultural pressure. Hmmm.
Pigpen is now a pigsty. Barracks taking a while, requires an aquaduct.

We are now 5th in population, we are gaining on them.

IBT: Alex drops by for a visit. Yo, wassup?
He wants to know if we will trade with him, open borders?

I always liked you Alex! (It was Scowler who was bad mouthing you)
Heh heh. Open Borders with Alex.
(Mostly I agree, so we can convert this little warmonger to our cause.)

10. 1275 AD
Walata finishes granery, starts on walls.
Hinduism spreads to shaggy.
Gao gets a chop, Global Theater due in...26.
Start worker on building a watermill, Gao needs more hammers.
Other worker started chop to North East.
Just remembered Global Theater is a national wonder, D'uh!
Okay, so maybe it isn't as urgent as I thought.

******************************

Turn order:
Blackluck -- on deck
Liquidated
Luv_Muffin
Scowler -- up
Percinho -- skip
Sir Toma -- on hold
Greggo -- MIA

 

[Luv_Muffin]

Summing it all up:

* Angle is still our problem child.
It cannot support itself yet (farms have been worked on, but so far
the city cannot afford to let go of the cows. This is getting hard on
Nagasaki, which is struggling without something to get it kick started)
* Hatty seems to have stalled with her swordsman at our border. I think
she would have went for a steal, but our troops there would tear her apart.
We still have a horse archer there, but lack of funds meant no knight
upgrades.
* Saladin is less impressed with us all the time.
Shaggy just got a workboat working the whales (nice!), and shaggy has
actually been throwing culture at one of his larger cities. I wonder
how he feels about that?
* Anjar is handling it's position remarkably well, considering it is
a landlocked outpost in the middle of some large cities.
* Nappy's bordertown, Besancon is in trouble I think. Our border has already
pushed his border to his city walls. We may accidentally (on purpose) steal
one of our ally's cities.
* We now almost have Hinduism in all our cities. I seem to have overlooked
sending a missionary to Gao! Send a missionary there, and let the town
enjoy the +25% hammer bonus.
* Theology due in three. Need plan for where we go from here.
* Harkuf is waiting in Timbuktu, do we send him on a trade mission, or
create a great person?
* we are in first place, and I think we are going to be in the front pack
for a while.
* Agression towards us has cooled (somewhat), but can't afford to
let our gaurd down. Still in last place with military, but catching up so slowly.
* Made a new friend with Alex. Show him the error of his ways, convert
the heck out of him! (if possible). He is last place though, scrub.

Demographics

Domestic Affairs

Technolgy outlook

Angle

*farm is being built due south of city. Furs still cannot be harvested.

Religion Advisor

Our Region

 

[Blackluck]

An impressive turn set, and an even more impressive turn log.




The Great Merchant.
Looks like we're still struggling a bit with gpt.
However, if we send him off to Inca land, we'll earn about 2500 gp.
That would help immensely if/when Saladin decides to attack.
I think Angar is taking longer to flip because the turns now are more compact.

By the way, I've seen financial AI civs earn techs at an alarming rate before.
I don't understand it, really. One turn they won't have anything to trade, the next they have three or four more techs. I don't get it.

Looks like we still have a shot at liberalism.
If we can swing it, I'd do a trade with Inca for engineering, mainly for pikeman. If Saladin attacks, we'll be faced with Camels, but pikes will deal nicely with that force.

 

[Luv_Muffin]

Thank you Blackluck.

1. Pigpen
I wanted to mention a few things I overlooked in my turn summary.
* Pigpen has enough food to choke a goat now.
There is a worker putting Shaggy's first farm in now, I think we can transfer that worker back to Pigpen to give it some hammer production.

It's odd, this place is filthy with grasslands. I would have expected more
cottages built here (where we could work them, and feed ourselves).

Strange how our cities are configured for me.
Do you all farm grasslands? It seems backwards to me, but I'm not an expert or nothing. Maybe I've been doing it wrong. I'm just a civ4 noob, so what do I know?

*Notice that we have a Scientist specialist in the city. Figured, what the heck. We may want to stop growth here though, and concentrate on hammers instead.

2. Gao

There are two workers just NW of the city. One has started working on a watermill, the other one just finished a chop. A third worker has started chopping the trees to the NE of city. I intend to keep the trees to the north (two side by side) for the health bonus.
I think that with hinduism, this town will build a little faster.
Should be tweaked though.
*EDIT: I just noticed something. Is that really a specialist in the city?
I think it is. I have no idea when that happened, but get that slacker to work in the fields! Actually, putting him to work in the salt mines would be better. We need the hammers for the Global Theatre. I think he appeared there when Gao grew to size 10, but am pretty sure I didn't do it. Should have noticed earlier, when it was taking so long to do the wonder.

3. Kumbi Saleh

This town is ripe for developing!
Chopping is underway south of city, to speed along the market.
This city should be pretty decent, once it gets moving again.
Again, not sure what happened to the plan for this city.
Notice that one cottage is actually producing two food (instead of one), along with it's cash?
Thats how I normally set things up.
Kumbi is earning 6, losing 6. Market will help, but need courthouse too.
* We need courthouses everywhere.

I hope Scowler approves of all the intel I provided for him so that he can attack his turn knowing what to expect.

 

[Blackluck]

On worker improvements:
My rule of thumb: Farm plains, cottage river grasslands. I tend to farm grasslands unless I screw up and don't leave a corridor for irrigation projects, in which case they get cottages.

I save clusters of forest for sawmills. I usually have all my terrain improvements finished before I get to replacable parts; I sleep my workers, wake them up for sawmills, then sleep them again until railroads come in.

But! I don't crunch numbers. On Noble, I often do 'aethestically pleasing' improvements In other words, "this looks like an area SMSA* sprawl would happen; along this river here, there'd be farms." Hardly optimal. But then it doesn't seem to matter much in the games I've played.

I've just recently discovered the power of watermills. I'm still learning.

*SMSA=standard metropolitan statistical area

 

[Liquidated]

I HATE mature cottages on plains... they take too long to just demolish but a single food tile makes liq =/

the way I see it farm it all then decide where the cottages and watermills go. lot easier to pave over a farm then it is a cottage that's been worked.

Cheers!
-Liq

 

[Luv_Muffin]

I've approached my turn with the "you made you bed, now lie in it" approach.
As I've said, I'm not an expert at civ4 (see my last post about Gao).
lol.

However, I've looked at Angle tonight, and how much farming we will need to do in order to get it to release the cows, and work the fur.
We must work that fur, it's there... we should have the ability to use all our resources!
I'm not sure if this is correct, somebody please do some number crunching...

* Yellow circle would require farm
* Pink X, cows that would eventually returned to naggy.
* Orange Circle, furs still needed to be hooked into our trade network

My math:
19 food currently (with cows) (and growth rate has slowed)
4 yellow circles would add four food, allowing us to release the cows.
End result, still cannot work the fur, and most of our city tiles are now farms, not providing us with extra hammers/coin.
We would need to farm at least one more tile, of our remaining seven, just to grab the fur and break even at our current slow rate of growth.


I admit, I am totally not sure, but I think that is way too many farms, not enough specialist tiles. If we worked that other cottage to the east, I think that would require another farm to be built to support it, reducing us to only five tiles remaining, total, that we can plant lumbermills etc.

I'm not even sure what this all means. Where is Sirian when you need him anyway?

Just over analyzing, but something is bugging me about this. Not sure what.
Can somebody take a look at the numbers, and see if a city with that many dedicated farms makes sense?
(We'd need fewer farms if we keep the cows, but that will likely doom naggy.)

Or do we just bulldoze the cottages, plant farms, and replace the cottages (immediately) on the grassland (South and Southwest)? If we do that, we need overall less farms, just build the ones being produced (one north, one south of Angle). I'd hate to destroy anything we built though. There ought to be a way to make this work.

* I like to keep my cottages on the friendly side (closer to capital) when building at a border town. Less chance of pillaging if an AI army takes a cheap shot. Farms are easy to replace.
*We wouldn't have a problem with Angle if the Barbarians and Toku followed our original dotmap!

I have another question.
Is that really another specialist(citizen) that has appeared in Angle?
I am getting annoyed at myself. Scowler, please get this specialist, and the one in Gao back to work.
And while you are at it, go through the cities we have, and make sure none of them have citizens that can be utilized.
I wonder how that happened?
Weird. From now on you can bet I will pay more attention every turn to every cities specialist list.
This will affect my math, I bet.

 

[Luv_Muffin]

Bleh.

I woke up early to give Mrs. Muffin a ride to work.

Thought I'd point something out to Scowler (and the SG as well).

As we know, Naggy is just north of Angle. In fact, the top three tiles of Angle are shared with Naggy.
Maybe this means both cities can only grow to a limited size. In view of that, I think Angle has done quite well, considering it's two tundra tiles.
(*I think the tundra, and sharing tiles is what is making Angle require careful planning from now on*)
I also was excited when I saw how many farms Angle still needs, but then when I looked again today, it needs so many farms because currently there are so few (just one, actually)! As I stated, there is one being built in the northern Yellow circle, and another being build due south. Both are due very soon.
I'd like to see if scowler can put that unemployed citizen to work on one of the new farms, and see if we can give the cows back to naggy.
I'd rather see Angle stagnant, and have Naggy be able to produce buildings than Angle grow beyond it's means and lose Naggy.
If/when another farm is built we can work that one too with Angle, capture the furs, and Angle would start to slowly grow again.

Still undecided if cottages need to be moved. I would also like to see if we can keep some trees for lumbermills, Angle has no hills to mine besides the iron.

Edit: On second thought, this balancing act is just too crazy.
Put cottages on grasslands, destroy and farm the cottages on the plains. It's the only way. The sooner we get this done, the sooner we have our cottages back and producing coins for us.

 

[Luv_Muffin]

24hrs has past.
Blackluck, you're up.
Liq, do your stretches.

 

[Scowler]

Sorry, I didn't have time to play at all today. I'm downloading the save now, but I also have my turn in the Turtle Game to do.

 

[Blackluck]

I can't play today (it's bedtime now.)
I may be able to go tomorrow, not sure yet. It'll be late if I do (tomorrow through Sunday early evening will be difficult for me to play but I might find time if I'm up early enough)

 

[Percinho]

Howdy all, just a quick note to let you know I'm still keeping a keen eye on things, but I'm going to have to ask for skipage until Dec 28th.

Great to be able to watch the rise of The Lurker Empire though! Keep up the good work....

 

[Luv_Muffin]

Howdy all, just a quick note to let you know I'm still keeping a keen eye on things, but I'm going to have to ask for skipage until Dec 28th.

Great to be able to watch the rise of The Lurker Empire though! Keep up the good work....

It's great hearing from you, Percinho!
I think that when you come back after X-mass, you will still be able to recognize the Empire you left behind. We'll try to avoid getting involved in any wars until the 27th. (Heh heh)

Have a great holiday! I'm sure we all look forward to your glorious return.

 

[Scowler]

Right, I'm just off to start my turn now (at last!). See you back here later.

 

[Scowler]

(0) 1275AD
- Gao: merchant is sacked and sent off to work on a farm. This gives us +1gpt and growth there will now occur in 8.
- Angle: round up loitering citizen and ship him off to our farm-to-be. Again, growth now due in 8.
- Nagasaki: another idle citizen. However, rather than ending up down on the farm, an artist’s life for him. The resulting +4 culture will hold back Toku’s borders and Nagasaki will now expand in 7.
- PigPen – ugh! There is sufficient food surplus that we could cope with a growth in unhealthiness, but doing so would not significantly increase either the production or commerce output. Therefore 2 citizens are hauled away from farms (at least until the local health care program is improved): one becomes an artist and the other becomes a priest, giving us increased science, culture, and finance (and 6GP).

(1) 1280AD
- Gao’s borders expand: Anjar is getting a bit squished but is still at 100%, alas.

(2) 1285AD
- Timbuktu: Monastery is finished and Bank started
- Longbow is ready at Djenne, which now switches to a bank. As a bonus, the borders there expand. Nappy’s new city, Besancon is currently at 9%!

(3) 1290AD
- Theology comes in and research switches to Paper. I decide not to revolt to Theocracy just yet – SG can debate first.
- Barracks ready at PigPen, so work begins on the desperately-needed aqueduct.
- Besancon at 5%!

(4) 1295AD
- Walls built at Shaggy; courthouse now started
- Besancon at 3%!

(5) 1300AD
- Toku adopts Hereditary Rule; Serfdom; Bureaucracy. Nice.
- Besancon at 2%!

(6) 1305AD
- Walata: walls are ready and a forge is begun.
- Angle: Bank finished and courthouse started.

(7) 1310AD
- Market opened at Kumbi and work starts on a courthouse
- Nagasaki expands on schedule.
- In the meantime, workers have been buzzing around Angle and the cows are at long last released to Nagasaki:

(There’s actually a farm to the SE of Angle, but it was finished later in the same turn, after I took the screenshot)
- Besancon at 1%!

(8) 1315AD
- Paper comes in. Research switches to Education (heading for Liberalism)

(9) 1320AD
- Bank ready at Djenne; work is started on an aqueduct since the area has begun to pong a bit.
- Bugger! Besancon has suddenly gone up to 25%! So much for our plans to flip it.

(10) 1325AD

- Monty declares on Cyrus! Woohoo!
- After a frustrating 10 turns with nobody willing to trade with me, our old friend Alex offers Engineering in exchange for Guilds. With war now breaking out we may soon need those pikemen. I just hope Alex keeps those knights away from us…

Current situation:

Our merchant Harkuf is still hanging about. I couldn't decide what to do with him. We really ought to discuss how we are going to use him.