Sgotm 01 - C F R

[Lexad]

3. City build queues.
Thebes finishes Settler (6) and has to stop growth as it already hits a rather long-run happy ceiling (6 pop). Now it has +8 food balance. If we chop wood to speed up military, this causes 1 disease and -1 food, then move 1 from cottage to quarry - or from cow if we want a fast boat for fast scouting and safe spying on Russians and 1 to mine = +1 food saldo - enough for at least 46 turns to stay at 6, while we hook up some gems
The second common tile (cottage) will be picked by 3rd city in 11 turns after it is founded (18), which will reach pop 3 9 turns later (27), and then it can run a mine and 2 cotts and give cows back. Confucian missionary for 1 happiness and a warrior = 5 happy pop.

Meanwhile Thebes has 16 (21 with cows) hammers per turn = >1 chariot every 2 turns. We can switch cows between cities every turns to produce exactly 1 WC in 2 turns and also build a boat (18, 26).

Memphis now has 11 hammers per turn, which will last until war (then - pop 5 and 13 hammers until turn 13, when they become 15). At pop 5 health saldo = 0, and we don't need growth.

So, Memphis and Thebes in steady state after like 10 turns with 21 and 13 hammers = 5+ chariots every 6 turns. We could even leave the wood for GL or Heroepic as we can get as much in just 2 turns plain production in capital

 

[Lexad]

That sounds good to me.

- about Alphabet or Macemen?

By the way, I have no experience of WC rush. Does it really take 1 wc per archer and 2 per spear? All Russian cities have +25% from hills and at least 20% from culture defense bonus, so we might want to amass our military before attacking.

 

[Lexad]

4. 3rd city location.

I still prefer Purple location. I believe 3rd city will have no part save boat scouting in Russian war. Reason - it takes no less than 9 turns to build a boat, meanwhile taking 5 shield cow from capital. 2 first cities = 5+ WC in 6 turns, 3rd = 1 in 8 (and for it has to abandon cottage) = next to 0. Th e effect will come later, and estimating longer run, 2 cities will have no less production (Purple can work 2 mins - 1 on grass hill SS from Thebes - at pop 5 together with 2 cottages and having no disease, as it is more favourably located than 3e2s, getting 8 hammers vs 10 in 3e2s, but leaving space for another 5-shield city). This might be the time for galleys - 13 hammers vs 10. So do we really need an early city which won't help us early instead of 2?

Please share your wisdom.

 

[Lexad]

A small note - NOT to forget about Memphis pop, keep it on the edge of 5 waiting for war by moving citizen from cow to wood and back.

We might also want to chop the only forest near 3rd city to spped up boatie.

 

[akots]

... Please share your wisdom.

Sorry, I don't have time to get into your numbers right now.

But we've made the plan. Just build the chariots (no need for barracks right now) and a boat. Either galley or workboat is fine. Send the boat scouting apparently to the south. And we need many chariots, there is little danger if you build too many but there is considerable danger if you don't build enough. Looking at previous save, I'd say 15 chariots is about right number to start and win the war. But we can start with 10 or may be even 8 and build the rest later on. Not sure about that however.

Research plan sound Ok to me.

The location of the 3rd city had been argued a lot already, so I see no point in arguing again.

If you are not sure what to do, just play 10 turns and let's take a look at the save and discuss what the plan is for the next player. If it is pretty straightforward, then go ahead and play 15 turns.

 

[Lexad]

I'm pretty firm about the city location, but I'm no pro and if you or Obormot or other guys could provide weighty arguments in favour of 2s3e or against Purple that I don't see, it will be most beneficial for my development and for team. That is the reason I'm not acting on my discretion right away.

 

[akots]

Ok, I don't count myself as a good enough professional in Civ4 yet. But I can tell you that I've never considered health problems while building a city or chopping forest. It will grow and it will be OK even if it starts with poor health. This game is not about growing the cities, in general, I try not to think about that at all. It is about killing and conquering and somewhat about research sometimes.

The more land you have the more resources for health and happiness you can connect. Try playing games on higher difficulty levels (starting from Emperor) and you will be able to notice the difference. That is all I have to say about the purple spot. That is the last argument I have and I'm not going to discuss it again.

 

[Lexad]

Thanks, captain! More land = 2 cities, ain't it? And 2 health resources soon, too.

Next spokesperson, please!

I'm going to sleep 3 hours before new workday and make the moves in the morning. See you!

 

[Obormot]

Your plan sounds good (I didn't check the numbers though). I would rather attack them earlier (with something like 8 chariots) hoping to cut their copper sooner. I am fine with both city placements. An yes, build the boat sooner, either share the cow or chop that forest. Perhaps even build 2 boats for exploration.

 

[Lexad]

Thank you guys. Sorry if someone didn't manage to voice his opinion, but it's time.

 

[Lexad]

Here it goes. 20 turns, 610 BC

I did science as planned but moved fishing first and then IW. Only 1 Iron visible at the island - 3s3w from capital, in the borders of Rostov. After building settler and settling on the Purple spot it is WC time.
Meanwhile warrior near copper goes scouting and finds that enemy has spear in Piter ad haven't reached southern copper yet. 2 chariots are sent towrds copper (when war starts, destroy in 1 turn - can't be done by warrior).
Built a boat by partly cow and party chopping (should not have used cow, as an afterthought) and checked North - zero. Turned back toward Russian shores.
Meanwhile Russians founded Yaroslavl 4W1N from Thebes, ruining Orange location (unless we destroy it ).
When I had 7 chariots ready at Thebes I saw Russians building axemen in both Moscow and Rostov. Actions were done immediately - chariots drawn to border. Next turn I coverted to c-zm (spread it in Purple Heliopolis a while ago), declared war, destroyed mine and sieged Rostov. The defense was 3 archers, axeman and wounded chariot, offense - 9 WCs, some with Combat I promotion. Rostov was captured losing 4 WCs, it will be our production centre (copper and iron).
Southern charios and ex-scout warrior entered enemy lands not to get chopped by axe but still be able to scout and threaten workers.
YThe save is the next turn after that. I've left Yaroslavl as it can be captured any time. I propose gathering forces and moving on towards Piter and Moscow. But be careful - ther's at least 1 spear in Piter and at least 1 axe in Moscow. I've left some spare promotions, maybe take Shock for WC - together with Combat 1 it gives 8 = 4*2 from spear - equal chances.
Bad news - war weariness in Thebes. Prposal - build/chop temple (5 turns) We have 100% bonus, so 1 chop = 112 hammers out of 120 required. This gives us then 4 extra hammers + 50% = 6.
Good luck, Behemoth!

 

[akots]

OK, some progress had been made!

Cat Behemoth is UP (already standing at the chariot reins) and Dynamic is preparing sharpening the spear points.

I'll take a look at the save and post the battlefield maps.

 

[Dynamic]

Sorry, I hadn't time for checking the game, but it looks like Lexad made good analyse and good session. I didn't load save since Witan's session so - sorry again. I think I will be ready at Monday if CB will do his steps. I doubt it will be possible at Sunday, but may be.

 

[akots]

OK, here are the pictures:

This is the newly captured Rostov with 9 WCs in the vicinity:

After promotions, this force might be enough to capture St. Petersburg. May be not, may be need some reinforcements. Yaroslavl' has 2 archers and a scout nearby. It can be captured with WCs made from Thebes and Memphis. But good idea is to raze that city since its location is not that good.

This is intelligence on Moscow and Novgorod. Moscow has a lot of units and probably building more and Novgorod has 2 archers and worker.

This is the picture of Memphis which is for some reason working plains forest (instead of cow) and starving whereas it can grow to size 5 easily.

Another rather puzzling moment is worker action near Memphis. Worker is building a mine whereas there are 5 forests to chop. These forests have no influence on health in the city. The warrior which is standing on silver is no longer needed there and he can go down to Heliopolis to do military police duty there.

Heliopolis, in turn, can work instead of mined hill on grassland, a mined hill on desert and workboat will be ready in 4 turns instead of 5 turns. The city will readily grow back after working the seafood tile next turn.

I'm not sure we need Metal Casting righ away, but it is just 3 turns at 100% science, so no big deal. What we need is Alphabet and Drama as rapidly as possible. With Alphabet, we will be able to extort some techs from Russia and with Drama, we will be able to build theaters and use luxury slider to control happiness. Then, we might go for Polytheism and Literature. But I'm not sure if we need these or should go instead to Feudalism.

Also, rice near Thebes has to be hooked up and the sooner the better. All forests near Thebes can be chopped as well. It might be nice to build a monastery there to further improve science. I'm nt so sure about building temple. But I don't like temples in general and I think have not built one neither in Civ3 nor in Civ4 on lower difficulty levels.

We are not doing very well neither with gold nor with production but the situation will change soon. Just need more cities and resources. THe major concern is that Russian lands do not have that many forests.

 

[Lexad]

akots, you're right about Memphis on wood, I forgot to switch back to cows as the war started - my bad. Warrior in the North is keeping the horizon clean from the barbs (silver tile), but now as we stamp chariots I agree he as well can be moved to Helio or Rostov.

Edit: and great thanx for making the screens, I was on the run.

Our cities are currently producing at super rate, so we might keep woods for bonused chops - like temples. I don't like temples much also, but we have a production bonus to them, meaning really cheap happiness. And we really need it, because the next turn after the war started there was an unhappy face in Thebes (Judaism adding up also, I think). I'm not 100% sure that Gyathaar thoroughly tested the Locked war effect, as I believe it has its part in this face.

Also, in 3 turns Rostov will kick in. It is basicly a production machine with copper, iron and hills. Even at pop 2 it we can mine iron and copper (if happy pop limit is too low). By the way, we could make some use of fast calendar there to work sugar. It will increase happiness, provide food to Rostov (4/0/1 with plantation) and Calendar is still on our route to Astronomy.

Notes for further war: I destroyed the only copper mine and secured iron and other copper. Comp would never send a big party after WC to build a city and work copper there - it just won't send workers
However, archers provided a very tough challenge - Piter and Moscow stand on the hills, old archers were sent to the new weak cities and replaced by promoted archers from the barracks. Both cities have high cultural count of 40%. An archer fortified in this city has 3*(1+0.2garrison+0.25fortify+0.25hill+0.4culture+0.5in cities) = 7.8 strength. To guarantee victory we need 3-4 times greater siege force than defenders. A lame duck trick might work - put a worker or wc near city (and others furter away) to make archer or spear come out, then trample him in the open.
Hopefully, Russians have only 1 spear (saw in Piter), unlikely more (but only there now). Just don't be in a rush and never mind Yaroslavl - you can take it whenever you want.

 

[Witan]

Lexard!

I can't load your file (610bc). I would like to analyz game inside and so.
To make sure, I reinstall my Civ and patch it again - no effect.

 

[Cat Behemoth]

I don't have time to play today, I think i'll play tomorrow. What about proposals for plan? I agree that Alphabet have the highest priority and don't see considerable reason for metal casting. Calendar also will be good to learnt. Drama will also be on the way.

 

[Lexad]

Lexad!

I can't load your file (610bc). I would like to analyz game inside and so.
To make sure, I reinstall my Civ and patch it again - no effect.

I don't know, I have 1.61 CIV, my 2 GOTMs were played in it (that is, patched then) and sent and accepted. The system has also swallowed the file and pictured the results. As you can see, akots can use it too. What could possibly be the problem? Maybe, download is incomplete? I could send you the file by mail if you like.

Does anyone else has the problem?

 

[Gyathaar]

I can open the save too with no prblem.. so the problem has to be on Witan's PC.

@Witan: Havent looked back through the thread, but you been able to open saves earlier? If so.. have you done any changes inside the Assets (not customassets) after this point? This could be like running civscale and setting non default values.. or downloading a file to inside this dir.. or making backup copties of XML files... uninstalling and resinstalling will not delete such files.. you would have to manually delete the assets dir after the uninstall before you reinstall.

 

[Dynamic]

I loaded 610BC successfully.