Sgotm 01 - C F R

[akots]

... science program is near finishing. So lets start GA factory!

I don't think so, we are very far from winning this game. And generating more Artists does not get us there. We have to kill Inca and Saladin and probably half or more of Roosevelt before we can claim victory here. And I'm not so sure if we can do it rapidly with macemen and catapults only. Casualtieis will be very high, especially casualties of suicided catapults.

 

[Lexad]

Let's decide on major issues:

1. Where to build galeons - consensus is leaning towards Helio, Rostov and Novgorod probably. I'd rather include Novgorod because it can produce galeon in 12 turnsand Rostov - in 6, meaning we get 4 galeons exactly in 12 turns from production. For galeon delivery chain to Arabia we need at least 3 galeons (each has 5 movt) to deliver 3 units each 2 turns to Sarmatian, and more for local operations. View producing galeons as producing money basicly, so Novgorod will be producing 13 gpt which we otherwise will spend on upgrading a galley.
2.Upgrading galleys - seems necessary for Persian troops, not as sure about mainland. We have 3 galleys at Persia and this is even not enough to bring all the troops. Getting money for these would require 8 turns at 0 science (not including plunder), but we could as well upgrade 1 galley now at east coast and start transporting troops to hill island so we can get them faster to the battlefield (we have at least 2 shiploads of troops at Moscow and Mainland). I'd say 1 galley, not more.

More to come tomorrow...

Continue:

3. Whom to attack - distance is not a factor here as it is equal for both salad and Capac from all our expeditions. I would vote for Capac for the simple reason - then we would know how much territory do we need from Roosevelt when we finish Saladin and also do not have to move our forces back and forth - that is if we're not going to leave Capac untouched.
Edit: I seriously doubt that as America is a real powerhouse with Capac and Salad having only about 60% its military. But if we can grab Persian territory, islands and press Gandhi or US with cultural bomb, we can get our 64% without war with US (Gandhi has 19% now and it is our opponents' max). Let's give it a thought also.
4. What to do with Moscow except unit building - cottages or farms and if farms, what specialists.
5. Would we continue research, and if would - which tech.

Other things seen to be pretty straightforward - build more troops, esp. suicidal catas and maybe a couple of xbows and spears for stack protection.

Edit: checked our military once more - we have 17 offensive units in {ersia and already 11 at home. Fleet is our bottleneck, we need galeons as soon as possible. I'm changing my opinion in favour of both building new ships and upgrading galleys now to start moving the troops.

 

[Ptitsa Consul]

Start to play...

I afraid so much make something not so well
But...

I made 3 turns - have captured Susa and Gordium and made peace with Cyrus for Theocraty.
I upgraded 3 Galleys near Our Mainland and sent them to Arabia. Caravells were sailing near arab-american coast, I check enemy troops. In most of all cities they have 1 LBow and 1 Spear. I saw american Elephant nearby Boston (in Boston 2 LBow and Axe)
Our science still 0% - for upgrades. I loss 1 Mace - risk to attack Susa with chances 63%.

My 3 turns are:

905AD (0) - I attacked Susa immediately - lost 1 Mase, but destroy 1 Arch and 1 Spear, and hard wounded last Arch. I not trade with Roosvelt, and start remove troops from Percsia (on Galleys)
Workers on Mainland were sending on hills near St.Pb - to make mines.
920AD (1) - I captured Susa, start in St.Pb new Cata, in Novgorod - Galleon (12 turns). First Galley's upgrade
935AD (2) - In Memphis - start HE, in Thebes (after Market) Cata (???). Second Galley's upgrade.
950AD (3) - Gordium captured with a rush! Only 2 Catas fired to it! Peace Treaty with Cyrus - Bactra is so far...He gives me Theology and I switch to Theocracy. Third Galley's upgrade, in Rostov start Galleon, in Yakutsk - Cata.

Your remarks please when it not so late

Edit:
PS
I not have read previous post when stat game...
PPS
I stop the game now for discuss about... as I wrote I afraid to make dummy actions.

 

[Lexad]

Just don't forget about ships, their absense slows us down. The other major point - whom to attack - still have to decide. All the rest is up to you.

 

[Ptitsa Consul]

Just don't forget about ships, their absense slows us down.

I remember it
But I unload game now and go to bed... May be morning (if I stand up so early )

2 Galleons move hoalf of Distance to Arabia and we can to turn them to Incas without losses IMHO. I don't no now. Next turn we can uppgrade one more Galley - from Persian cities we got ~250$ total (2 Galleys upgrade). And I think, that we can upgrade one more Galley (or may be both) when all "Persian Corpse" will back to coast. And our troop can move north by foot some times (we have ~5 units in Mainland)

 

[Obormot]

We should have upgraded galleys in Persia before the galleys in the mainland, bringing troops back using galleys is OK too, but this way we won't be able to drop one big stack at once. I guess we still have quite a few units in Persia, we have to make sure to pick them up soon.

 

[akots]

Looks like everything is OK from your description! [goodjob] Just make sure to remember set builds in all newly captured cities to courthouses (before they stop revolting) and start chopping them whenever possible and as soon as possible.

If you want more detailed opinion, please, then, upload the save to the upload system of SGOTM, so that others can look at it.

 

[Lexad]

So whom should we attack, guys? I'm for Incas, for the reasons of logistcs convenience and clarity with American war goals (how much territory/population do we need from them, if any). The only drawback - we have no cover against xbows and knight ready. We should build at least 1-2 xbows as soon as we get iron.

 

[Ptitsa Consul]

Upload my first 3 turns.
Intermediate save here

Another 7 turns I'll make later...

 

[Lexad]

My piece of advise:
1. Sell Roosevelt stone - we don't need it, he won't benefit from it (Chichen Itza is built by India, walls and castles would not add to his culture much - if anything). For this we can get 1 health and 6 coins/turn now!
2. You might finish producing cata in Helio, but please switch to galeon, we need plenty of them.
3. You must have already figured it out, but just in case - if you wish to replace WC in galeon by cata, move it now. In fact, you'd better move two catas (from Moscow and Novgorod) as we need them much more and have much less in our attack group. Mace can wait.

So, risking to annoy everybody - whom do we attack? Arabs?

 

[Ptitsa Consul]

I think - Arabs - distance between our "Persian Corpse" and Arabs is less when between our "Persian Corpse" and Incas.

2. You might finish producing cata in Helio, but please switch to galeon, we need plenty of them.

I not start this production, but I think, that I must finish it.

NB
I agree, that we must have more Mace, but if we shell save them by sacrifise Catas we need more Catas when Maces...
But I'll remember your notes now!

 

[Obormot]

Yes, arabs first, it is less risky because the arabs are weaker and have a forested hill. Also it seems to be slightly better because of logistics.

And yes, ship more cats and less maces, first we need to take care of the defense bonus and only then attack. I guess we will need to reduce the defense to 0% for every city and also use 1-2 suicidal cats for mass damage.

 

[Lexad]

I agree, that we must have more Mace, but if we shell save them by sacrifise Catas we need more Catas when Maces...

I think we have enough maces for now. We need cats to bring down walls fast and die valiantly

Logistics is absolutely identical for Arabs and Incas, it should not be the factor:

http://www.stipendia.ru/~lexa/Civ4ScreenShot0004.JPG

But Arabs are less developed and we see a strong position to start with when we have no direct counters for xbows and knights and elephants at hand - this could be a decisive factor. But I would rather not fight US if victory could be achieved without it - and that means we would have to take Incan lands as we end Arab war so that we don't have to move troops back and forth.

Important note: Susa has 8,5% chance of Indian revolt. We need to station some troops there and hire as many artists as possible as soon as possible. Moving great artist in case of drastic measures is also an option. Susa cuts from India's access great chunk of land - it might be vital. In general, all our cities bordering with India would better switch to artists to win land peacefully as their brothers win it by mace.

 

[Ptitsa Consul]

Important note: Susa has 8,5% chance of Indian revolt. We need to station some troops there and hire as many artists as possible as soon as possible. Moving great artist in case of drastic measures is also an option. Susa cuts from India's access great chunk of land - it might be vital. In general, all our cities bordering with India would better switch to artists to win land peacefully as their brothers win it by mace.

So late again - this feature for next player...

I do my turns now.
My gameplay was not brilliant, but I capture Sarmatia with lossing only one Cata!

I try to use all of my team's advises and I hope, that Witan will repear my errors/
History of next 7 turns are:
965AD (4)
My will was to attack Arabia (as said Obormot). At beginning I doubt about first target for our troops landing: Sarmatia or city nearby Horses (later I saw that it was Baghdad). Thats why I not attacked their land 2 turns (waiting for Caravell's reconnaissance and one more Galleon with Catas)
Heliopolis start Galleon, Arbela - Archer (lowcost Military Police) after CHouse (may be it was mistake). I break our tradeing Iron with Gandhi - change it for our Rise to his Dye. Thebes starts Xbow.
980AD (5)
Notre Dame far away...
I sold Stone for Roosvelt to his Gold and 7$pt. 2 Galleons near Arabia (but only one Cata in them)
995AD (6)
StPb - Cata -> Xbow.
1010AD (7)
Gandhy asked to convert to Buddhism - I reject him. Roosvelt want Open Borders - I agreed.
1025AD (8)
I declared war and landing on forest hill near Sarmatia 4 Catas and 5 Maces.
Thebes: Xbow->Cata
1040AD (9)
First native Galleon in Rostov -> Cata. We have 7 Galleons and 1 Galley now. 2 more Galleons in process. Reduce Sarmatia defence bonus to 20%
1055AD (10)
Great year in Egypt's history. I think lot of time to risk or not to risk and try to risk (in other case we lost one more Mace only).
First of all, I reduce Sarmatia's defence to 5%. Next I attack it with 2 Catas, one of which was dead and another withdrawed. Next I make all current doing of Egyptian Emperie - started Library in Moscow (for Nat. Epic), moved Galleons and land troops in ex-Persia. Increased our science to 20% (because we have only one Galley for upgrade) - 18 turns to Engeneering.
Next, I thought, thought and one time more thought - and risked!!!
Our Mace was victorious with 16% chance. Later next Maced had more then 60% chances and Sarmatia was captured! I can move in it one non-wounded Mace!

Two Galleons are moved to Heliopolis now - we have stack of 5 Catas and 1 Xbow here. One Gallen moded to south of Mainland - Witan must to send it in needed place.

Save here

And 2 screenshots ot strong US-forces:
1st: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/1stTerribleUS.JPG
2nd: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/2ndTerribleUS.JPG

Note:
In north coastal citied Incas have a little military - 1LB+1Spear...

 

[akots]

The American forces do not look that terrible. They have many units though but if indeed first Arabs are killed and then Inca, the combined force of our troops left over can deal with all that American units. Just do not build anything except troops/ships and courthouses. We should get enough gold from plunder to maintain the economy running, may be even with some research.

 

[Lexad]

Excellent warfare and scouting! We can give a thought to capturing some Inca cities before ending Arab campaign. As they are not connected by roads to major cities, we can try rushing them from the ships, burning and fleeing next turn if defence is weak. Maybe a raiding galeon or 2 can be used.

Some notes on culture: as a war legacy, we have culturally weak cities of Susa and Gordium (indian revolt chance >9%). In 2 turns Susa reaches pigs - then we can employ an artist without risk of starvation. It will also have to fight for food places for Gordium. If we lose these cities we lose a great pchunk of land - mostly tundra but who cares! That's why I think it is the best place for GArtist. If a revolt takes place, we should use GA. If we manage to push back India by artists - good, we don't have to spend GA. Also, I think here theatres are more urgent than Chouses. Also turn back some less useful troops - they decrease the probability of revolt.

Breaking Iron deal with Gandhi wasn't optimal - in the meantime he's got his own iron or from our competitors. We need health resources, so far there is enough happiness - change deal with US later. Just a note for the next player.

Production - let's build barracks in Piter, Arbela etc and then finish the units - if we plan to use them as army-producers, this increases their efficiency. We still have to decide on Moscow - if we do not plan to generate GPeople, we need no National epic or library - only barracks and forge.

Small note - Incan caravel threatens our seafood near Persepolis. Sadly, no ship near. Maybe send a galleon there. Hide the boat in the city.

Edit: Also, let's build units in cities with our state religion. If for this we need to build 1-2 missionaries in Thebes - let's do it, it's worth it. Confucianism just isn't widespread enough to simply convert to it, better spread Judaism to Memphis, Helio and maybe Yakutsk.

Edit2, Military: in 5-6 turns we get ivory and Elephants, pushing Arabs away from them - this means US won't be able to build them and Arabs also, but we would! And Elephant is much better than pike: has same strength against cavalry on flat terrain (6+100% = 8+50%) and thus can be used as protection from knights, but is also useful as city stormtroop. Thus we do not need to research engineering for pikes. As soon as we get 2-3 fatso's to cover us from knights, let invade Aztec - we will have enough troops to fight on both fronts.

Add-on: Logistics Optimisation

Let's create Galeon chain - galeon moves 5 turns and transfers units to next galeon (you wake unit and tell it board another ship), rinse and repeat. It takes 3 Galeon strides to reach Arabia - then 3 galeons can transfer 1 galeon load of troops (= 3 units) to destination every 2 turns - first move along the chain, second turn - ships return to starting positions. As we have 6 galeons or more, we can double the chain and deliver 3 units every turn!!!

 

[Lexad]

A note worth to be written alone - as Capac has Guilds he is 1 step from Gunpowder. Having to storm Musketmen-defended cities will be a hell of a pain. Our production and existing army are massive - maybe it is worth opening a second front.

 

[Cat Behemoth]

Looks like Susa and Gordium are lost cities for us. Both of them have more than 9% chances to revolt.

I think that we have reason to sell an unmilitary tech (Drama or Music) to americans. Over 200 gold plus may be they would build wonders and not the units.

 

[Obormot]

Looks good.

We have our workers now doing useless stuff in Russia, we should get them over to Persia and chop the courthouses there (as soon as we can spare a galeon for this).

We also have 3 galeons between the arab island and our home island on goto order which is not a good idea. I also think we should keep several ships near the front to be able to transport our units quickly to a new coastal city. For example we currently have 2 undamaged ,aces and 2 cats near Sarmatian that we could have trasported quickly to a new arab city if we had a ship there.

I don't think building National Epic is a good idea because it will not pay off. It will take 30 turns to build it. If we really need another GA we should just hire artists instead of using mines in Moscow or Persepolis which has lots of seafood.

But it may actually be a good idea to produce another artist though if we use the first one to culture bomb the indians and then the second one on the last turn.

 

[Dynamic]

For now we need to use Artists in Susa, Gordium and Arbela.
And, as on the first war we had needed many WC, now we need more Catapults.
Stop sciense, and produce only Cats and some Maces in the main cities.
We need only GA as Great People. But I think too late for National Epic. Only military and right battles.
And of course Settlers near the end.