Sgotm 01 - C F R

[akots]

Too early scientists, I think. I hoped to save its for Representation after Pyramids with grater effect...

I thought about that also. We can let them go though for some time after the Oracle is finished or even right now since all effort should have been towards the Pyramids. But for that we need Masonry, Bronze working, and another worker.

Now, Thebes can grow slightly more to size 6 and we basically get everything back. It was pretty dangerous otherwise since we were risking of not getting CoL with Confucianism. I decided to play it safe here on the scientific front.

 

[Obormot]

Sharing cottages is crucial, it is the most important part of the game! I think it is a great mistake to slow down cottage growth so much (first by building the blue city where it was built and now by hiring scientists instead of building a settler). With 3 cottages it will take us forever to get to Astronomy. And as Dynamic said Academy after Piramids is more optimal, not the other way around.

I don't know whether we need to continue with the academy since we have 66/150 GPP already, or proceed with building a worker and a settler faster.

I would spread the religion into Thebes, the new city will have enough happy faces for quite a while and Thebes needs it now. This will allow us to work the cow tile to build the worker and settler soon or an extra cottage if we decide to fire scientists.

I agree with Lexad's city placement. The Pink dot should be settled urgently as i said. The other 2 cities can wait for now and we can build them after the Piramids or after the Piramids and 2 WCs.

 

[akots]

... If anyone has objections backed up with numbers, please present them. ...

You were "presented with objections" which you choose to disregard.

It seems you are too much of a builder and too little of the warrior. That is OK imho, we need both approaches here.

It is certainly Obormot's call but I think it is better for the team if we resolve the conflict the easy way by deciding through discussion.

 

[akots]

... it will take us forever to get to Astronomy. ...

I'm not so sure that we need Astronomy.

...I would spread the religion into Thebes ...

We already have religion there.

If we revolt now though, we might worsen relationships with Russia and this might lead to them attacking us and we don't want that yet.

 

[Lexad]

Proposed strat to rush for Pyramids: remove 1 scientist to cows and start worker (10 turns), cancel task for the worker we have (before he moves this turn, that is - immediately), move him to Thebes, next turn - to woods west, 3 turns for road, 1 turn to stone hill, 3 turns road - and we already have masonry (9 turns passed since now, mining + masonry = 7 turns, 7 (2 + 5 to go) for bronze working).
Now it is 1 turn to go for worker and 9 worker days for quarry. Start quarry with 1st, next turn 2nd pops, comes and helps build quarry the same turn. They have 3 more turns to go. Then (perhaps not immediately) switch to Pyramids, remove all growth via setting to scientists or hill to prevent red faces and revolt to Bureaucracy.
Bronze working is discovered the same turn (or 1 before if research rounds up) the quarry is built the very next turn start chopping and producing Pyramids. Chopping wood at Epic takes 5 turns, so with 2 workers it will take a while. Base city production (city+quarry+cow) is 10 + 100% from stone + 50% from Bureau = 25. First chop starts the next turn the quarry is built by moving along the road. It will take 12 turns after quarry to chop 4 tiles of wood giving 112*4 + 25*12 = 736 out of 675 => excess
If we try to chop 3 tiles, this will take 10 turns = 3*112 + 25*10 = 586 out of 675 - need extra 89. If we hit bureau right after the worker is produced, and then build pyramids before quarry (adjusting for 1 move for anarchy) = 2turn*(2town+3cow+3hill)*1,5bureau + 1turn*(2town+3cow+5quarry)*2,5bureau&stone = 24 + 25 = 49 hammers. If we also during chopping work plains wood tile for extra 2 hammers per turn * 2,5 * 10 turns = 50 hammers. That's it!

That is the recipe of Pyramids in 9 for road + 5 for quarry + 10 for chopping = 24 turns. Can anyone think of faster?

Edit: the previous calculation was incorrect. It is correct now (I believe)

 

[Obormot]

I think we should revolt immidiately if it helps us. Maybe it is a little bit risky, but we have to take the risk imho. We have +2 with them already and we can bribe them with techs as soon as we get Alphabet.

I am not sure if we need Astronomy too, but as long as we are not certain that this game can be won before Astronomy we cannot afford to slow down our research.

It is quite late now and i have just started playing GOTM, so i don't want to break now to stick with the 1 hour per session rule, so i'll play tomorrow. I would really like to build a settler for the Pink dot before the Piramids. Originally we planned 2 workers 1 settler, but it looks like now we have trouble fitting just 1 worker into the build sequence due to many screwups. I think we can delay the Piramids a little bit without great risk and still build that one settler. That settler is very important and i really hate to delay it so much. First of all it is the cottages as i said and also it is exploration. We need to get that boat out ASAP so we know whether we need Astronomy or not.

We are not in a hurry now because we seem to be ahead of most teams, so I can look into the save tomorrow morning and propose my build and worker action sequence.

 

[akots]

If we remove one and then another scientist, we will not get Bronze working that rapidly.

Another option might be to chop the third worker. We need him anyhow. That means we go for Bronze working first and only then for masonry while keeping both scientists. We then can get Pyramids in about 20 turns or may be 19, not sure.

In either case, even if we don't get the Pyraminds, we can receive substantial cash and this cash will be helpful in the forthcoming war with Russia.

 

[Lexad]

If we remove one and then another scientist, we will not get Bronze working that rapidly.

We will. I've checked.

Another option might be to chop the third worker. We need him anyhow. That means we go for Bronze working first and only then for masonry while keeping both scientists. We then can get Pyramids in about 20 turns or may be 19, not sure

Not so fast, I fear.

 

[akots]

... Maybe it is a little bit risky, but we have to take the risk imho. ...
I am not sure if we need Astronomy too, but as long as we are not certain that this game can be won before Astronomy we cannot afford to slow down our research.

That is not a little bit risk, I would say it is extremely risky. Also, keep in mind, that if they attack, we lose the game altogether. AI on Monarch can kill us, of that I'm very certain. We need a few units for backup, so good idea would be to start on chariots in Memphis right after Oracle and build as many as possible. We also need to hook up rice.

We cannot afford to slow down science but also we cannot afford to work only cottages. There must be a good compromise found in this subject otherwise we cannot achieve the balance between science and productivity which we need to win here.

I'm against a clear all-out-science or all-out-hammers approaches for this game and in general.

With emphasizing science only you can win by Diplomacy but not by Domination. If the warmongering is postponed for too long, we would have to face lots of powerful AIs. Might be, our units will be superior, but we would not have enough of them. The earlier we start, the better we are off regarding the finish date.

 

[Lexad]

Revolting to confucianism will add 1 happy face and cost 1 turn. It won't speed up Pyramids, but we can work cottages then AND work a plains wood during the chopping. However, still you need plains wood for 8 turns, we might make this sacrifice in order not to angry Russia beforetime - and know all it s troop dislocation, resources - and get teleport to other continent opportunity!

 

[akots]

... adjusting for 1 move for anarchy ...

We don't have anarchy, we are spiritual.

 

[akots]

... and get teleport to other continent opportunity!

That is unlikely, the units are teleported towards your territory unlike it were in Civ3.

... Not so fast, I fear.

I think even faster if we can get Thebes to size 6. I'm not sure what will happen to health though after the forest chops but it seems that the city will not starve either way.

 

[Lexad]

We don't have anarchy, we are spiritual.

Sweeet... Then we might need even 1 less turn: first chop together along the road, then separately = 9 turns of chopping. If we revolt to Bureau immediately after we get it (in 5 turns), the sciences will come even faster.

By the way, if we start worker now, will the accumulated production of chariot decay?

 

[Lexad]

Ok, fellas, good night, lot of work tomorrow.

 

[Obormot]

I am not telling i will only work cottages and this is exactly why i won't to settle that city soon. We can then work some production tiles with our capital while cottages are worked by the other city and vice versa

Chopping one worker or settler sounds good to me.

 

[Lexad]

One last proposal - we can build settler with 2 city after Oracle in 150/14 = 11 turns, that is even before quarry is finished (before the Pyramids , Obormot). And it can immediately after founding work cottages.

 

[Dynamic]

Don't forget that for good chopping we need Mathematics... By original plan we could have it in time but now... I need time for testing but not now.

 

[akots]

Don't forget that for good chopping we need Mathematics... By original plan we could have it in time but now... I need time for testing but not now.

Well, we do need mathematics. The problem is whether we can get it in time to build the Pyramids or not. It is hard to tell indeed because we have no idea about how powerful the AI are here and even if they have stone or not.

All we need now for the following turns is Masonry and Bronze working. Mining will be discovered in 3 turns and we can start to Mathematics. We can prechop forests and actually collect the hammers after the discovery of Mathematics. If we keep both scientists running, we can get Mathematics while working on quarry on the stone tile and road there. We can build worker in Memphis as well. But before this, Thebes has to be allowed to grow to size 6 if we revolt.

So, no big hurry with chopping imho for now. I'm not absolutely sure we even need the Pyramids because health is more limiting to us than happiness and also, if we put all these hammers into units, we can go to war sooner. Research is important though and +3 extra beakers from specialists is a nice thing to have in any case. However, even if we don't get the Pyramids, it is not that bad especially if we don't need Astronomy.

 

[Lexad]

Sorry, my bad, didn't notice 112 from chopping was with maths. Then it will take 1 chop and 3 turns more to build Pyramids.

 

[Witan]

I'd like to discuss military aspect of our game.

Now we have not unit exept Warriors. Relationship with Russian only +2. After Catherina was built 4th city near our Capital, IMHO she will want to attackt us. Now position of Bronze/Iron is unknown, but probability, that Catherina have these resources and we dont't is about 2/3 (her territory is bigest). So, what can we do to protect and that to atack?

I think, we need to build some (2-3) Chariots to capture Russian Bronze/Iron city as soon as we see Bronze/Iron on map.