SGOTM 01 - Fifth Element
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Doom Train, can you please give your rationale behind starting building a mine on 2S from Thebes?
Perugia said in #90 "the grassland hill directly south of moscow." I am sure he ment Thebes, our capital; so did he mean 1S form Thebes?
I pointed out the 1SW from Thebes location in the post #91 and, IMO, gave a reasonable explanation why I thought it was the choice.
If you just missed it--it's O.K. by me, but if you had a game-based reason--I, for one, would like to know what it was. I am just very curious...
Thanks.
Added later on
BrianS, if it was just a miss, I think we should drop building the current mine and move. So we lost two/three turns of worker production, no big deal, but an extra hammer per turn is quite a prize, I think.
Perugia said in #90 "the grassland hill directly south of moscow." I am sure he ment Thebes, our capital; so did he mean 1S form Thebes?
I pointed out the 1SW from Thebes location in the post #91 and, IMO, gave a reasonable explanation why I thought it was the choice.
If you just missed it--it's O.K. by me, but if you had a game-based reason--I, for one, would like to know what it was. I am just very curious...
Thanks.
Added later on
BrianS, if it was just a miss, I think we should drop building the current mine and move. So we lost two/three turns of worker production, no big deal, but an extra hammer per turn is quite a prize, I think.
Merum
Permanent Jet Lag
Random thought of the night...
If we're going to take down Catherine early, and if she's the only other civ on our continent (if it is a continent) we're going to need caravels quick, otherwise we'll end up waaay behind in techs to the people on the other continent.
Not an urgent issue, just something to keep in mind.
If we're going to take down Catherine early, and if she's the only other civ on our continent (if it is a continent) we're going to need caravels quick, otherwise we'll end up waaay behind in techs to the people on the other continent.
Not an urgent issue, just something to keep in mind.
As Ra rises over Egypt in the arbitrary year of 2830 BC, he looks down on his favored country and sees in the tiny city of Thebes a bud of greatness to come. He wonders, will the citizens of Thebes glorify him with the building of great pyramids? Or will the threat of civilizations growing in the south lead them first to war?
As recorded in clay tablets by clerks, Thebes statistics are:
Pop: 4
Growing (13 turns/9F-6F = 3F gain)
Building Warrior: 1 turn
7H per turn
7 health - 5 sickness = 2 health margin
5 happiness - 3 unhappiness = 2 happiness margin
Thebes units report in as follows:
Anhur and Shu are stationed in Thebes to defend their beloved capitol.
Leonardo is building a mine 2S of Thebes on a grassland hill. 4 turns to completion.
Tefnur curiously finds himself wounded on the rice E of Moscow, wounded presumably by the expansion of Moscow borders. Tefnur is at 1.4 strength and requires a rest of 3 turns to regain his strength and vigor.
The scholars of Thebes are studiously researching Masonry, which they will master in 7 turns. They are contemplating their next field of study, which could include:
- BW: to reveal the glory of copper and the strength of axes
- Pottery: to build their riches and bring health to their cities
- Archery: to defend their cities
They are torn between BW and Pottery, but are favoring BW to satisfy their desire to know where copper may be found in their realm.
The leaders of Thebes meet to establish a 10 turn plan and consider the following:
A. Send Shu out as fog buster north near 2nd city site.
B. Heal Tefnur, then move to fogbuster location on isthmus N of Russia or keep next to Russia as spy?
C. Move Leonardo to 1SW of Thebes on plains hill and build mine as suggested by gskur? Gets extra H, loses 1F over current mine build location.
D. After mine completed, start road to 2nd city/horses or build quarry on rocks? The quarry is favored, but the leaders are tempted by the desire to build chariots as soon as the gods permit.
E. After new warrior is completed in 1 turn, move warrior to fogbuster location SW of Thebes on route to Moscow or keep as defense of Thebes?
F. Start build of Settler after new warrior completes.
G. The civilization must expand, and the cartographers contemplate a prime location for this city, marked in heavenly blue.
As recorded in clay tablets by clerks, Thebes statistics are:
Pop: 4
Growing (13 turns/9F-6F = 3F gain)
Building Warrior: 1 turn
7H per turn
7 health - 5 sickness = 2 health margin
5 happiness - 3 unhappiness = 2 happiness margin
Thebes units report in as follows:
Anhur and Shu are stationed in Thebes to defend their beloved capitol.
Leonardo is building a mine 2S of Thebes on a grassland hill. 4 turns to completion.
Tefnur curiously finds himself wounded on the rice E of Moscow, wounded presumably by the expansion of Moscow borders. Tefnur is at 1.4 strength and requires a rest of 3 turns to regain his strength and vigor.
The scholars of Thebes are studiously researching Masonry, which they will master in 7 turns. They are contemplating their next field of study, which could include:
- BW: to reveal the glory of copper and the strength of axes
- Pottery: to build their riches and bring health to their cities
- Archery: to defend their cities
They are torn between BW and Pottery, but are favoring BW to satisfy their desire to know where copper may be found in their realm.
The leaders of Thebes meet to establish a 10 turn plan and consider the following:
A. Send Shu out as fog buster north near 2nd city site.
B. Heal Tefnur, then move to fogbuster location on isthmus N of Russia or keep next to Russia as spy?
C. Move Leonardo to 1SW of Thebes on plains hill and build mine as suggested by gskur? Gets extra H, loses 1F over current mine build location.
D. After mine completed, start road to 2nd city/horses or build quarry on rocks? The quarry is favored, but the leaders are tempted by the desire to build chariots as soon as the gods permit.
E. After new warrior is completed in 1 turn, move warrior to fogbuster location SW of Thebes on route to Moscow or keep as defense of Thebes?
F. Start build of Settler after new warrior completes.
G. The civilization must expand, and the cartographers contemplate a prime location for this city, marked in heavenly blue.
Merum
Permanent Jet Lag
More random thought goodness...
Tefnut is female.
Thebes is at pop 3.
The offspring of Tefnut and Shu (who were brother and sister) are Geb and Nuit (for future unit naming)
I love Wikipedia.
I think Tefnut should fog-bust. The last thing we need is barbs out the wazoo.
I favor bronze working over pottery.
I favor the stone quarry over the road.
I like a nice Tawny Port with some Stilton.
I think we only need to road one square, between the rivers, to connect the cities.
We should work the river tiles as much as possible for extra gold.
I like BrianS' pre-turn assessment a lot.
I think we have a good team, based on what I see so far.
Tefnut is female.
Thebes is at pop 3.
The offspring of Tefnut and Shu (who were brother and sister) are Geb and Nuit (for future unit naming)
I love Wikipedia.
I think Tefnut should fog-bust. The last thing we need is barbs out the wazoo.
I favor bronze working over pottery.
I favor the stone quarry over the road.
I like a nice Tawny Port with some Stilton.
I think we only need to road one square, between the rivers, to connect the cities.
We should work the river tiles as much as possible for extra gold.
I like BrianS' pre-turn assessment a lot.
I think we have a good team, based on what I see so far.
One other thought before I head to bed. Is our attention being unduly diverted by Catherine (she is quite comely)? I fear that hordes of HC minions will appear from the east on galleys.
Send your feedback on my plan tomorrow, and I'll play my turns tomorrow night.
If the east is a concern, maybe our third city should be the greenie in the attached. This gives us a coast city, which we do not currently have and access to the east.
Send your feedback on my plan tomorrow, and I'll play my turns tomorrow night.
If the east is a concern, maybe our third city should be the greenie in the attached. This gives us a coast city, which we do not currently have and access to the east.
Perugia
Prince
I expect that was caused by the death of the lion that killed the Russian scout. Is she now at 1XP?BrianS said:
The city doesn't count as population so when it is size 1 you actually get to work 2 tiles one citizen plus the city tile itself. The population doesn't need counting as its shown eg the 3 inside the star just to the SW of Thebes.BrianS said:
I think Leonardo's top priority to to join Thebes trade net to the northern river and to the horses and time this so the road on the horses completes the turn before the city on the blue dot is founded. That way as soon as city 2 is founded the Leonardo can begin improving the horses and as soon as the horses are improved both cities can start a chariot.
On the other hand Leonardo should not move to the horses too early so he has nothing to do.
Some more thoughts on the BW/Pottery thing. We only have one worker at the moment who needs to build a few roads, quarry the stone, tame the horses and so forth. So if we add to that list building a copper mine or cottage we are not going to see these improvements all completed any time soon and I don't see us agreeing to build a granary just yet either?
I don't see us actually building any cottages or copper mines for the next 15 turns at least. If copper requires a third settler then that will take some time to build too so we ought to know so it can be planned on the dot map. So I'm now more inclined to go for BW just to find out where the copper is.
The green coastal site could be the third city (depending where copper is) and we need ships so sailing needs to be factored into research. In the future we could build a workboat for the clams or fish that could spend a few turns exploring what lies beyond the coastal mountains to determine if galleys are going to be of any use.
So having thought some more I think our research should be BW>Pottery>Sailing.
In all the hurry, we forgot to examine the baby carefully—and she suffered injustice all these years. Poor lovely Tefnut!
The location for our second settlement shown by BrianS with light blue dot on his screenshot is where the barbarian lion is located. This will work well. In addition, I would like us to consider an alternative placement of cities as shown in the picture below.
The “2” location is on the coast, can grow as fast/faster, has very respectable hammer resources (also gets 2 cows and the horses, but 1 plain hill, to say nothing of the forests), and allows for the another 2 good-sized cities on the east coast. These “$” location will be for the cities in the future that will be mainly working cottages for gold. Note: the lower one is the BrianS' "greenie".
re: BrianS #105 above
A. O.K.
B. O.K.
C. We’ll be building settler and worker next, so continuing with the current mine will give us no short-term advantage vs. building a farm on the rice. Having this farm, however, will allow us to grow population faster to the size 5 while operating the quarry (5H!) all the way.
The way it looks at this point, we would rather move to rice, farm it, and then move to build a quarry. In the meantime (starting in one turn, while building the settler and the second worker—population is not growing!) we move working spot (in the city screen, function key F10) from 2W square to rice for +1 settler production. When the quarry is done, we move the worked square from rice to quarry for another +1 settler/worker production. At some point we will need a worker to finish 2S mine, which is being built now, and to build a 1S mine. In the end of this juggling, we will be working the following:
the center for 2H2F1C, 1N2W (quarry) for 5H, 1E (flood) for 3F1C (build hamlet to grow Commerce), 1S (grassland hill mine) for 3H1F, and 2S (grassland hill mine) for 3H1F. The TOTAL is 16H10F3C; stagnant growth at health/happy limit, low on commerce, max hammers for military production.
We are now 2 population before we hit both happiness and health limits. In order to get at 5 popuplation fast, we start workin the rice fields as soon as the second worker is built (switch from quarry!), with the next growth going to quarry but continuing working the rice, then to 1S and, immediately abandonning rice, to 2S.
There will be some additional juggling/delays in order to start working on the hooking up the horses to our capital while the second worker is being built. Maybe a steal from the Russians, sacrificing a warrior, could help us much.
D. re: the plan/schedule in C above. If we go with the BLUE city location then we could build pasture on horses starting the turn following the founding of the city. If we go with the yellow location, this will be postponed by 15 turns (the time it will take for the second city boundary to expand). The difference in the capital’s production capacity will be maybe 3H (like 10H vs. 13H), at least part of these 15 turns, so it’s not a heavy consideration, I would think. The 15 turn delay is about 2 chariots, which is a consideration of note. However, the choosing of the location for the cities, IMHO, must have a supreme long-term strategic priority over almost everything else (just 2 chariots are no big deal in comparison) because we cannot move cities.
I loved the blue spot. Now, after all this analysis, I am inclined to favor the yellow spot, trading 2 chariots for an excellent costal city location. It’s definitely the team’s decision here. Considerations and votes, please!?
E. O.K.
F. O.K.
G. see D above!
The location for our second settlement shown by BrianS with light blue dot on his screenshot is where the barbarian lion is located. This will work well. In addition, I would like us to consider an alternative placement of cities as shown in the picture below.
The “2” location is on the coast, can grow as fast/faster, has very respectable hammer resources (also gets 2 cows and the horses, but 1 plain hill, to say nothing of the forests), and allows for the another 2 good-sized cities on the east coast. These “$” location will be for the cities in the future that will be mainly working cottages for gold. Note: the lower one is the BrianS' "greenie".
re: BrianS #105 above
A. O.K.
B. O.K.
C. We’ll be building settler and worker next, so continuing with the current mine will give us no short-term advantage vs. building a farm on the rice. Having this farm, however, will allow us to grow population faster to the size 5 while operating the quarry (5H!) all the way.
The way it looks at this point, we would rather move to rice, farm it, and then move to build a quarry. In the meantime (starting in one turn, while building the settler and the second worker—population is not growing!) we move working spot (in the city screen, function key F10) from 2W square to rice for +1 settler production. When the quarry is done, we move the worked square from rice to quarry for another +1 settler/worker production. At some point we will need a worker to finish 2S mine, which is being built now, and to build a 1S mine. In the end of this juggling, we will be working the following:
the center for 2H2F1C, 1N2W (quarry) for 5H, 1E (flood) for 3F1C (build hamlet to grow Commerce), 1S (grassland hill mine) for 3H1F, and 2S (grassland hill mine) for 3H1F. The TOTAL is 16H10F3C; stagnant growth at health/happy limit, low on commerce, max hammers for military production.
We are now 2 population before we hit both happiness and health limits. In order to get at 5 popuplation fast, we start workin the rice fields as soon as the second worker is built (switch from quarry!), with the next growth going to quarry but continuing working the rice, then to 1S and, immediately abandonning rice, to 2S.
There will be some additional juggling/delays in order to start working on the hooking up the horses to our capital while the second worker is being built. Maybe a steal from the Russians, sacrificing a warrior, could help us much.
D. re: the plan/schedule in C above. If we go with the BLUE city location then we could build pasture on horses starting the turn following the founding of the city. If we go with the yellow location, this will be postponed by 15 turns (the time it will take for the second city boundary to expand). The difference in the capital’s production capacity will be maybe 3H (like 10H vs. 13H), at least part of these 15 turns, so it’s not a heavy consideration, I would think. The 15 turn delay is about 2 chariots, which is a consideration of note. However, the choosing of the location for the cities, IMHO, must have a supreme long-term strategic priority over almost everything else (just 2 chariots are no big deal in comparison) because we cannot move cities.
I loved the blue spot. Now, after all this analysis, I am inclined to favor the yellow spot, trading 2 chariots for an excellent costal city location. It’s definitely the team’s decision here. Considerations and votes, please!?
E. O.K.
F. O.K.
G. see D above!
Groin_Apologist
Big Ten Apologist
With regard to city placement, I guess we would have to ask ourselves how many citites we want initially... at this difficulty level, how many cities can we reasonably support before the drain on our treasury becomes too much. What is our ideal number of cities before amp-ing up the war machine and attacking Cathy?
I certainly don't think we should wait till four cities before attacking. I don't think its worth waiting for three.
The reason I prefer the earlier suggestion is that the new proposed 2nd city has two squares of ocerlap with Thebes, three squares of tundra, and six non-improvable squares of ocean. I don't think the fish is worth the negatives, and we don't need a coastal city yet, although we probably will later.
The reason I prefer the earlier suggestion is that the new proposed 2nd city has two squares of ocerlap with Thebes, three squares of tundra, and six non-improvable squares of ocean. I don't think the fish is worth the negatives, and we don't need a coastal city yet, although we probably will later.
Dolphan, you are absolutely correct (post #113) about not waiting long before attacking. I think the issue here is where to put our second city (in order to get to the horses!), with a long-term strategy in mind. Whichever location we choose, it will influence what we can and cannot do in the future.
Everything in this game is exponential (which, I think is, the worst thing possible in a game!--why do they keep making them strategy games like this?!). Location of the early cities has more assured consequences then a couple of game pieces. We might lose them to barbarians anyhow, for all we know--this is much more random. City locations are permanent. Them are the breaks! But those 2 chariot are indeed very-very tempting!
Note: We have to consider Moscow as one of our future cities, I'd say. But how soon?...
@Groin_Apologist (post #112): I believe 4 cities are O.K. We do not have to build that many, but we should consider the possibility we might have to, so it would be nice to have good locations for them. Going "original blue" is a less "economical" use of the land.
@BrianS: Thanks for the updated location chart--very nice!
Does the "original blue" spot (see image in the post #108) make a better or a worse city in comparison with the "new blue" spot (see image in the post #114)? I'd very much like to hear some pros and cons articulated, leaving the "2 chariots" out of the equation, for now.
Everything in this game is exponential (which, I think is, the worst thing possible in a game!--why do they keep making them strategy games like this?!). Location of the early cities has more assured consequences then a couple of game pieces. We might lose them to barbarians anyhow, for all we know--this is much more random. City locations are permanent. Them are the breaks! But those 2 chariot are indeed very-very tempting!
Note: We have to consider Moscow as one of our future cities, I'd say. But how soon?...
@Groin_Apologist (post #112): I believe 4 cities are O.K. We do not have to build that many, but we should consider the possibility we might have to, so it would be nice to have good locations for them. Going "original blue" is a less "economical" use of the land.
@BrianS: Thanks for the updated location chart--very nice!
Does the "original blue" spot (see image in the post #108) make a better or a worse city in comparison with the "new blue" spot (see image in the post #114)? I'd very much like to hear some pros and cons articulated, leaving the "2 chariots" out of the equation, for now.
Merum
Permanent Jet Lag
Of the city spots I'm seeing, I'd favor the blue first. The agita I'm getting is based on how many worker turns it's going to take to hook that all up. Do we have time for that?
I always try to not overlap my city tiles. Is this wrong? Maybe that's the builder in me, wanting to grow the city to 21 and fill up the fat cross.
It's also my instinct to build toward my neighbors, not away. You know, the whole denial thing.
imo, we need to get those horses hooked up, pound out chariots like mad, and take it to the russky chick ASAP.
We could always find an irc channel and hash this all out together, but I dunno if everybody's around at the same time...
I always try to not overlap my city tiles. Is this wrong? Maybe that's the builder in me, wanting to grow the city to 21 and fill up the fat cross.
It's also my instinct to build toward my neighbors, not away. You know, the whole denial thing.
imo, we need to get those horses hooked up, pound out chariots like mad, and take it to the russky chick ASAP.
We could always find an irc channel and hash this all out together, but I dunno if everybody's around at the same time...
Merum, I tend to do the same thing. But I always face the same problem: The game is over well before my cities grow big enough to worry about overlaping or not. Have you noticed how AI almost invariably puts the second city seemingly too close the the capital? I think there is a good lesson in it for the two perfectionists like we are!
I've completed my 10 turns and have uploaded the save file. Not much happened. Warriors on fogbusting duty. Masonry discovered, BW started. Catherine built second city on isthmus, blocking any hope of southern horses. Details below.
Turn 1 (2830): Tefnut 1NE to Jungle Hill to heal. Shu 1N towards second city site. Fortify Anhur at Thebes. Leonardo requested to move 1W towards rice.
Turn 2 (2800): Geb the warrior is born; he moves 1 SW to begin fogbusting duty. Tefnut set to heal. Shu 1 NE. Leonardo ordered to farm rice.
Turn 3 (2770): Geb and Shu patrol on fogbusting duty.
Turn 4 (2740): Shu kills lion.
Turn 5 (2710): Geb 1 SW to forest to prepare for lion attack. Shu rests to heal for 2 turns. Her strength regained, Hefnut moves 1 NE on fogbusting duty.
Turn 6 (2680): IBT Geb attacked by lion. Survives with 1.7 strength and rests to heal.
Turn 7 (2650): Archer/Settler combo appear at northern boundary of Catherine's realm. It looks like they're headed N to close off the isthmus. The horses at north of Catherine's realm were never to be. Tefnut continues N along isthmus. Shu, now recovered, continues N for fogbustine patrol in northern regions.
Turn 8 (2620): Masonry is completed. BW is started. Shu, Tefnut and Geb continue patroling the fog.
Turn 9 (2590): Nothing to report. Warriors on fogbusting patrol.
Turn 10 (2560): Farm completed on rice. MM question: Having citizen work farm increases settler production by 1FPT. However, if worker is moved from working floodplain, time to research BW increases from 15 to 17. I did not end the turn, so this decision can be made by next player. In either case, settler will complete in 7 turns, which suggests continuing to work floodplain, but I'm not sure if there would be carryover production for next worker if we switch to working rice farm.
Dolphan (up)
gskur (on deck)
Groin_Apologist
Goodenuf (skip on May 19-22)
Perugia
Merum
DoomTrain
BrianS
Turn 1 (2830): Tefnut 1NE to Jungle Hill to heal. Shu 1N towards second city site. Fortify Anhur at Thebes. Leonardo requested to move 1W towards rice.
Turn 2 (2800): Geb the warrior is born; he moves 1 SW to begin fogbusting duty. Tefnut set to heal. Shu 1 NE. Leonardo ordered to farm rice.
Turn 3 (2770): Geb and Shu patrol on fogbusting duty.
Turn 4 (2740): Shu kills lion.
Turn 5 (2710): Geb 1 SW to forest to prepare for lion attack. Shu rests to heal for 2 turns. Her strength regained, Hefnut moves 1 NE on fogbusting duty.
Turn 6 (2680): IBT Geb attacked by lion. Survives with 1.7 strength and rests to heal.
Turn 7 (2650): Archer/Settler combo appear at northern boundary of Catherine's realm. It looks like they're headed N to close off the isthmus. The horses at north of Catherine's realm were never to be. Tefnut continues N along isthmus. Shu, now recovered, continues N for fogbustine patrol in northern regions.
Turn 8 (2620): Masonry is completed. BW is started. Shu, Tefnut and Geb continue patroling the fog.
Turn 9 (2590): Nothing to report. Warriors on fogbusting patrol.
Turn 10 (2560): Farm completed on rice. MM question: Having citizen work farm increases settler production by 1FPT. However, if worker is moved from working floodplain, time to research BW increases from 15 to 17. I did not end the turn, so this decision can be made by next player. In either case, settler will complete in 7 turns, which suggests continuing to work floodplain, but I'm not sure if there would be carryover production for next worker if we switch to working rice farm.
Dolphan (up)
gskur (on deck)
Groin_Apologist
Goodenuf (skip on May 19-22)
Perugia
Merum
DoomTrain
BrianS
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