SGOTM 01 - Memphis Blues

[BSouder]

Well, I have played most of my turn but not all of it. I ran into a situation that I think everyone deserves input on.

1510 (1) - Catherine settles Rostov by the sugar. I micro Thebes to grow to happy limit in 1 turn.
Rostov

1480 (2) - Our first War Chariot is built in Memphis. I send it south and insert another in the queue ahead of the worker. It will finish in 5 turns just as the city reaches it's happy limit. Thebes is micro'ed to work production tiles, reducing the Pyramids to 10 turns. It would take that long to get the worker there and chop, so no chopping for the Pyramids. Worker moves to connect Thebes and Mephis.
Thebes


1450 (3) - Nothing much. Warrior gets a good look at the Russian copper city (St. Petersberg). Two archers defending.
Russian copper city

1420 (4) - Catherine has horses just outside the borders of St. Petersburg.
1390 (5) - Warrior scouts...
1360 (6) - Finish researching Priesthood and start on Pottery. Warrior finds Moscow, it's got a gem mine which we will like when we capture it! Worker starts the last piece of road to bring horses into Thebes.
1330 (7) - Second War Chariot finishes, I will let the worker finish since it's just a few turns. Our warrior discovers that Moscow is in a nice spot except for the jungle to clear.
1300 (8) - Warror still scouting Russia. It looks like they have a 4th city to the east.
1270 (9) - Memphis and Thebes connected. The worker is sent to Memphis' second set of cows to pasture. Four turns to Pyramids, I have my fingers crossed.
1240 (10) - Oh crap! Yes Catherine has a 4th city, and it has copper which she has hooked up. She is also building a mine on the copper at St. Petersburg.

1210 (11) - Memphis builds a worker, I send him to the plains hill to the south to mine since the city needs to shift to some lower food more production squares anyway (at happy limit). I move our scouting warrior south, in the back of my mind is a potential to pillage both copper mines at once and pray. Not sure we would survive that though.
1180 (12) - We get the Pyramids in Thebes. Thebes starts on a War Chariot. Memphis is still building a barracks that was pre-queued when the worker finished.
1150 (13) - I change civics to Representation. It and Hereditary rule are both 0 gold so we might as well. Thebes could now grow again, so I change the worked tiles to remove a forest and work a flood plain. It's now growing slowly, but at least it's growing.

On the way through Russia the only troops she had were archers. But, she may very well have built a spear or axe or so after I passed by the cities. We could declare, steal the worker and pillage the other copper mine. IF she hasn't yet finished a spear or an axe she probably wouldn't be able to do anything to our chariots outside of St. Petersburg but if she has a couple we are in trouble.

I consider declaring on her now a gamble, but I don't know that we have a lot of choice. Anyone have a strong opinion before I commit us?

 

[radiopill]

For me no hesitation , the Pyr is finished, and we have 2 good productions cities with barracks (almost...). We have an advantage with the warC, but it won't last if she start building spear especially in StPeter (on a hill)...
And if we can capture a worker it's good for us and for our economy.

And we just have to wait for reinforcement whipped: might be usefull amplified wit police state..?), the 2 WarC just have to harrass her... IMO

 

[Syntherio]

I agree with radiopill. We have to pillage her copper now.
Maybe the WCs in the North should go south to Novgorod? Maybe she will have no worker left in the North, when we capture her worker there. Then our WCs can control the southern region, the warrior is maybe a little weak... Or should we gather our troops first to capture St. Petersburg?

 

[radiopill]

I have made some preliminary test before this SG, and with 2 archer on a hill, we need at least 3-4 WarC if we want to take it...

So harassment is the better way for the moment IMO.

 

[Frederiksberg]

I say we go to war. We may still be just in time to prevent Cathy from building spearmen. If the Warrior and the WC beside the copper ressources both have full movement points I suggest we go ahead and cancel open borders and go for the pillage of the copper mines. As far as I can see from your screenshots the warrior can probably not come under attack when he enters the copper mine near Novgorod (I assume that Cathy has no horse units). This mean he can survive long enough to destroy the mine. As long as Cathy can't get the copper back we are in control even though it migth be a while before we have gathered enough forces to start capturing citys. By the way I suggest we go for Police State ASAP and maximize production in both cities. We should also pillage patures and mines to slow down Russian production. Then we should be able to outperform the Russians with respect to military production and that will eventually give us victory.

 

[Frederiksberg]

I have made some preliminary test before this SG, and with 2 archer on a hill, we need at least 3-4 WarC if we want to take it...

So harassment is the better way for the moment IMO.

I totally agree. A fortified archer in a city built on a hill has - as far as I can calculate - a defensive bonus of 50% (unit ability) + 25% (fortify) +25% (hills) + 20-40% (tile defense) + bonus from promotions. That is at least 120% giving a resulting strength of (1.2+1)*3=6.6 which is much more than our WC's have. The key to capturing the Russian cities is to outnumber the defense by roughly a factor of two. Then we can use the first attacking wave of WC's to soften up the defenders and the second wave to finish them off. Preferably the first wave should have the flanking promotion so that more of them survive and the second wave should have combat 1 for extra killer instinct

By the way. With all our mlitary tied up in war to the south we should remember to send a warrior up north to remove or minimize the fog of war and thus prevent barbs from appearing up there. The last thing we want is a barbarian axeman paying a visit to Memphis!

 

[radiopill]

Preferably the first wave should have the flanking promotion so that more of them survive and the second wave should have combat 1 for extra killer instinct

Good idea

 

[BSouder]

Alright, I am done with my turns and will upload as soon as I finish this post.

1120 (14) - WAR! We declare on the Russians and take their worker (who had just finished their second iron mine). The mine is pillaged and our second chariot moves to pillage the cows by St. Petersburg. With only 2 archers in the city, she shouldn't try to attack us. Note there is now a settler in St. Petersburg also.
1090 (15) - Catherine sends a galley out of St. Petersburg with a settler and archer. Not sure where they are going yet. This leaves only a single un-promoted archer in St. Petersburg. It's tempting but I don't attempt to take the city with our 2 un-promoted chariots. Seems silly to try it with a newly created one with experience 2 turns away. Cows and southern mine pillaged.
1060 (16) - Catherine moves a second archer into St. Petersburg and I can see a 3rd on the road headed there. I block the road with a chariot, lets see if she wants to attack us in the open. Send the warrior that was fortified ouside of Thebes north for fog busting. He wasn't going to do much if Russia attacked anyway.
1030 (17) - I catch one of her archers in the open and kill him. Got a fairly bad roll though and was injured heavily, should be OK though. Captured worker starts on a road through a forest tile to speed our chariots between Thebes and Russia.
1000 (18) - No counter attack on the injured chariot, I give him a combat 1 promotion to heal him out of the critical stage and have him rest. The other original chariot moves toward Moscow to pillage. Start staging the new barracks created one(s) on the cow tile by St. Petersbrug...might as well deny that square to the city.
985 (19) - The list for the most powerful civilizations doesn't look too pretty.

Move a worker to the flood plains by Thebes to start on a cottage. Also notice that Thebes is currently at it's health limit and Memphis will reach his health limit before his happy limit currently. I'll have the captured worker hook up the rice to help combat that.
970 (20) - Pillaged a gem mine in Moscow's fat cross. Started a worker on a cottage and one on a farm on the rice. Set the warrior on the best hill I could find to the north for fog busting.

There are a few squares on the edges of Russia's territory I didn't explore but I am 99% sure we are alone with her on our side of the mountain range. Her settler on the galley disappeared into the black and has not been seen since, but it doesn't look like it's headed for our territory.

I left our warrior fortified on Russia's southern copper source. He's been there for a few turns and by the time she gets anything there he should have a full 25% bonus. Since the best she can muster seems to be archers she may think twice about trying to dislodge him without sending a few units.

My recommendation for tech by the way would be Iron Working soon. We need to know where it is to deny it to Russia and we'll need it to clear the jungle from the Russian cities we hopefully will be capturing soon.

The state of our empire...

 

[BSouder]

Oh, almost forgot. We are still under Representation. I had hit end turn before posting before so couldn't change to Police State. By the time I could change again I only had 2 turns left and thought it might be rude to make a civic change that spilled over into the next turn set like that. Between our 2 cities we are making 2 chariots every 3 tuns though (2.8 turns per chariot for each city).

 

[BSouder]

Umm, I missed this until I saw the turn log when uploading.

Seems I am full of bad news with my turns...

Turn 96, 1120 BC: Confucianism has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 97, 1090 BC: Huayna Capac converts to Confucianism!

 

[Mad Professor]

Seems I am full of bad news with my turns...

I think you did well.

HC having CoL is a bit of a pain, but better to know it now than not until after we start yet another round!

More WC can't get produced too fast!

Edit: What I mean by the above comment is that we need more of them as soon as possible. (It's amazing what variety of meanings can be attached to something you write that you think of AFTER you post it...)

 

[Drogear]

Umm, I missed this until I saw the turn log when uploading.

Seems I am full of bad news with my turns...

Ok to bad, but no worries. Oracle isnt so important anymore. And a religion would be nice but not a must. Still there is christianity and taoism left.

So we are at war eh? So how many cities have we taken at this point?

 

[Frederiksberg]

So we are at war eh? So how many cities have we taken at this point?

None! Our strategy is to pillage until we have enough WC's to start capturing cities. We need roughly two times the number of defenders to be succesful. Read the posts on the last two pages of this thread to get an update. Most important is to prevent the Russians from rebuilding the copper mines near St. Petersburg and near Novgorod.

 

[Drogear]

Interesting idea to start a war just to pillage the copper resource (no sarcasm). Hoping that the Russians don’t start to pump out spearman that would destroy our undersized military force.

Somewhat the same war-making doctrine Bush/USA are adopting, pre-emptive strikes.

Still hope to capture at least 1 city (the copper one)! Defeat is not an option…

 

[Frederiksberg]

Interesting idea to start a war just to pillage the copper resource (no sarcasm). Hoping that the Russians don’t start to pump out spearman that would destroy our undersized military force.

Somewhat the same war-making doctrine Bush/USA are adopting, pre-emptive strikes.

Still hope to capture at least 1 city (the copper one)! Defeat is not an option…

Russia can't build spearman as long as the copper stays unhooked. And our military won't stay undersized - right now we are building 2 WC's every 3 turns! And at the same time we are destroying the production capability of the russians so soon we will be much stronger (The cost in hammers of a WC is the same as the cost of an archer). There are two russian cities with copper (St. Petersburg and Novgorod). Unless serious war weariness sets in I think we should capture all the russian cities on our Island.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Umm, I missed this until I saw the turn log when uploading.

Seems I am full of bad news with my turns...

Things are not so bad in my view. We got the Pyramids and we probably stopped the russians before they could build any spearmen. I still think we are on the right track.

 

[Drogear]

Russia can't build spearman as long as the copper stays unhooked. And our military won't stay undersized - right now we are building 2 WC's every 3 turns! And at the same time we are destroying the production capability of the russians so soon we will be much stronger (The cost in hammers of a WC is the same as the cost of an archer). There are two russian cities with copper (St. Petersburg and Novgorod). Unless serious war weariness sets in I think we should capture all the russian cities on our Island.

Sounds ok, didnt remember that copper/Iron was needed for spearmen

 

[Frederiksberg]

Oh, almost forgot. We are still under Representation. I had hit end turn before posting before so couldn't change to Police State. By the time I could change again I only had 2 turns left and thought it might be rude to make a civic change that spilled over into the next turn set like that. Between our 2 cities we are making 2 chariots every 3 tuns though (2.8 turns per chariot for each city).

I think we should still go for Police State (+25% production) for the next 6 turns. Then Memphis will grow and we need to go back to Representation. If we do any chopping it should be done during PS to get the hammer bonus.

 

[Frederiksberg]

My recommendation for tech by the way would be Iron Working soon. We need to know where it is to deny it to Russia and we'll need it to clear the jungle from the Russian cities we hopefully will be capturing soon.

If we pillage all their mines they can't have iron! Otherwise you're right. I have another idea though. In a little less than 50 turns we get a great engineer. So maybe our tech path should be influence by which wonder we would like to build. One possibility is the Colossus. Most of our current and future cities have water tiles within their fat cross and this wonder increases the gold output from those. Could mean a big economical boost. In order to build the Colossus we need Metal Casting and a forge in a coastal city (Memphis?).

 

[KingdomBrunel]

Good job to deny the copper to Russia. I think we should change to Police State until we grow (and if it's too our advantage, keep it after we grow). Then back to representation. And a war from East to West, keeping all the cities, until no more Russia.

In terms of tech and wonders, I don't think we should get Iron yet - I think tech and commerce based research is important now - we need libraries and cottages to power on once we've destroyed Russia. I'm quite happy for us to go for a wonder, IMO it should be commerce/research based - so either Colossus or the Great Library. I guess I favour the Library, we seem to be behind in techs.