DaviddesJ
Deity
MailMan said:
I don't think there's anything but water on the other side of the mountains.
SGOTM 01 - Peanut
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
I don't think there's anything but water on the other side of the mountains.
MailMan
delivering
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I like the war chariots blitz idea.
We first should check if we actually can declare war on the Russians (we are locked with always peach with one of the AIs)
As I mentioned I also think that the cottages are the way to go for our capital, but one farm as DaviddesJ suggested is a very good idea, it help us get the settler sooner and allow more flexibility.
We might want to consider cranking up a second worker
I do not think we should go for an early wonder. It is too much risk at that level with rather small benefits to my liking. It is far better to have 9 war chariots than the pyramids
We first should check if we actually can declare war on the Russians (we are locked with always peach with one of the AIs)
As I mentioned I also think that the cottages are the way to go for our capital, but one farm as DaviddesJ suggested is a very good idea, it help us get the settler sooner and allow more flexibility.
We might want to consider cranking up a second worker
I do not think we should go for an early wonder. It is too much risk at that level with rather small benefits to my liking. It is far better to have 9 war chariots than the pyramids
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OK - looks like it will be an uneventful turn-set -> Not much to do but explore & wait.
Turn 1: Hmm. Not sure which way to send the warrior - he's at a fork. I decide on SE (not as 'out-of-the-way', and its traversing hills).
The coast continues to bend east - looks like its the end of the lobe.
Turn 2: 3340 BC;
Warrior confirms its a small lobe - but finds sugar.
Turn 3: 3310 BC - warrior heads back to take other fork. Is that where the russians are?
Turn 4: 3280 BC: Running out of things to say here....
Turn 5: 3250 BC: Complete the pasture. The governer hasn't changed production, so I do it manually. I really should pay more attention to what the governer does & the inter-turn mechanics. I'm fairly sure that the governer does change the assignment on the interturn, but I need to check. Anyhow - cows are on the river, so they're conected (health = 7; 3 Mr Icks.)
Turn 6: 3220 BC: Follow the suggestion of a farm on the other side of the river. 10 turns to complete (I'm not used to Epic!) Warrior finds clams.
Turn 7: 3190 BC: Complete warrior. Agree that we shouldn't start a settler until size 2. A barracks pre-build is as good as any, although we may lose a couple of 'decay' hammers if we pause to crank-out too many settlers. Could damned-near get a second warrior to explore the east flank. On reflection - I decide to do that, noting that once we get to size 2, we can work the stone for one turn to complete the warrior, then start straight on settler - warrior provides escort (which may not be needed this early), or it goes exploring. First warrior finds more horses & gems - this really is a resource-rich land!
Turn 8: 3160 BC: Second gems spotted - and the russian border. Looks like catherine is surrounded by jungle, so we should have a good approach if we are to blitz her. Might want to take a worker to road it, though.
Turn 9: Thebes grows next turn.
Turn 10: See catherine has (a third supply!) of gems hooked-up. If we raze moscow, there is a city radius that could have 3 gems, rice, horses & a couple of hills (or lose rice for a coastal tile). Could be a great science city.
Current status: Thebes has just grown to size 2. Building a warrior, 15/22 hammers, with 2 turns left. Currently working pasture + grassland forest (grow in 12). The worker is building a farm, but will take another 6 turns. Pottery is 2 turns away.
I suggest that we work the stone for a turn to complete the warrior, then get on with a settler. For the first warrior, I'd like to see more of catherine's land - may be helpful to know if she has resources later (especially metals for spears if we're going for chariots).
>>SAVE<<
Turn 1: Hmm. Not sure which way to send the warrior - he's at a fork. I decide on SE (not as 'out-of-the-way', and its traversing hills).
The coast continues to bend east - looks like its the end of the lobe.
Turn 2: 3340 BC;
Warrior confirms its a small lobe - but finds sugar.
Turn 3: 3310 BC - warrior heads back to take other fork. Is that where the russians are?
Turn 4: 3280 BC: Running out of things to say here....
Turn 5: 3250 BC: Complete the pasture. The governer hasn't changed production, so I do it manually. I really should pay more attention to what the governer does & the inter-turn mechanics. I'm fairly sure that the governer does change the assignment on the interturn, but I need to check. Anyhow - cows are on the river, so they're conected (health = 7; 3 Mr Icks.)
Turn 6: 3220 BC: Follow the suggestion of a farm on the other side of the river. 10 turns to complete (I'm not used to Epic!) Warrior finds clams.
Turn 7: 3190 BC: Complete warrior. Agree that we shouldn't start a settler until size 2. A barracks pre-build is as good as any, although we may lose a couple of 'decay' hammers if we pause to crank-out too many settlers. Could damned-near get a second warrior to explore the east flank. On reflection - I decide to do that, noting that once we get to size 2, we can work the stone for one turn to complete the warrior, then start straight on settler - warrior provides escort (which may not be needed this early), or it goes exploring. First warrior finds more horses & gems - this really is a resource-rich land!
Turn 8: 3160 BC: Second gems spotted - and the russian border. Looks like catherine is surrounded by jungle, so we should have a good approach if we are to blitz her. Might want to take a worker to road it, though.
Turn 9: Thebes grows next turn.
Turn 10: See catherine has (a third supply!) of gems hooked-up. If we raze moscow, there is a city radius that could have 3 gems, rice, horses & a couple of hills (or lose rice for a coastal tile). Could be a great science city.
Current status: Thebes has just grown to size 2. Building a warrior, 15/22 hammers, with 2 turns left. Currently working pasture + grassland forest (grow in 12). The worker is building a farm, but will take another 6 turns. Pottery is 2 turns away.
I suggest that we work the stone for a turn to complete the warrior, then get on with a settler. For the first warrior, I'd like to see more of catherine's land - may be helpful to know if she has resources later (especially metals for spears if we're going for chariots).
>>SAVE<<
DaviddesJ
Deity
ainwood said:
Ick. I remembered Epic, but forgot about the Desert cost. We could interrupt the farm to start a cottage a few turns sooner, but that won't make sense, certainly, if we're trying to get a settler out.
I'll look the new map over and post further thoughts. Suggest (again) we take our time before the next player goes---there are some key decisions to make soon.
MailMan
delivering
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I got it. Will probably play in 10 hours or so, unless you want to have more discussions before that.
Current plan: finish warrior in 1 and start settler. send the warrior as fog buster for the settler. start research writing
Edit: cross-posted with DaviddesJ - it seems that we want more discussion ...
Current plan: finish warrior in 1 and start settler. send the warrior as fog buster for the settler. start research writing
Edit: cross-posted with DaviddesJ - it seems that we want more discussion ...
DaviddesJ
Deity
I'd rather delay an extra 24 hours for another round of discussion, if that's ok with everyone. Also would like to give people a chance to chime in on overall direction, as there are several reasonable possibilities that have been suggested.
If we want to finish the warrior in 1, I suggest we work the forest/plains in place of the stone.
It seems that we can declare war on Catherine (at least, I'm seeing the option when I load the save file). Attacking her is looking more attractive now that I see those gems. On the other hand, there's some downside if we're wiping out the only AI on our continent (leaving no one to trade with). It looks like it's 10 turns movement for a War Chariot from Thebes to her capital. Can reduce that to 9 by building a single road SW of Thebes.
If we're going to start the settler now (well, in 1 turn) we should decide where it's going. A big question: if we're in a hurry to connect the horses, do we want to put our 2nd city next to the horses so we don't need to wait 8 turns for cultural expansion before building a pasture? Or, even put it on the horses, so we don't even need to build the pasture?? I hate to walk away from those fine fish, but, we can pick them up later with a city 3W 2N of Thebes, if we really want to.
If we wait for cultural expansion, that gives us just about enough time to build a barracks, if we want to. Barracks will take 18 turns at 5h/turn. Settler will take 3 turns to settle, 8 turns to expand borders, then we need 6 turns for pasture (I think), that's 17 total. This lets Thebes go for max growth; we can then switch to emphasize production when we start cranking WCs.
That gives us 1+16+18 = 35 turns before we need to have Horses connected. If we're going for the fast settler and then war chariots, I suggest this: 5 turns to finish the Farm at 2E 1S, 1 turn moving, 4 turns for a Road at 2E 1N (connecting the rivers), 1 turn moving, 3 turns for a Road at 1E 4N, 3 turns for a Road at 1E 5N, 3 turns for a Road at 4N, 6 turns for a Pasture at 4N (on the cows), 6 turns for a Pasture at 1E 5N (on the horses). That gives us both cities and the horses connected, and cows and horses available for city 2 to work, in 5+1+4+1+3+3+3+6+6 = 32 turns. Maybe we can build another Road somewhere along the way (if I haven't miscalculated). This skips cottages near Thebes for now (because if we're going for the chariot rush then production and connections are more important, not to mention the improvements that will make our early 2nd city actually useful).
If we want to finish the warrior in 1, I suggest we work the forest/plains in place of the stone.
It seems that we can declare war on Catherine (at least, I'm seeing the option when I load the save file). Attacking her is looking more attractive now that I see those gems. On the other hand, there's some downside if we're wiping out the only AI on our continent (leaving no one to trade with). It looks like it's 10 turns movement for a War Chariot from Thebes to her capital. Can reduce that to 9 by building a single road SW of Thebes.
If we're going to start the settler now (well, in 1 turn) we should decide where it's going. A big question: if we're in a hurry to connect the horses, do we want to put our 2nd city next to the horses so we don't need to wait 8 turns for cultural expansion before building a pasture? Or, even put it on the horses, so we don't even need to build the pasture?? I hate to walk away from those fine fish, but, we can pick them up later with a city 3W 2N of Thebes, if we really want to.
If we wait for cultural expansion, that gives us just about enough time to build a barracks, if we want to. Barracks will take 18 turns at 5h/turn. Settler will take 3 turns to settle, 8 turns to expand borders, then we need 6 turns for pasture (I think), that's 17 total. This lets Thebes go for max growth; we can then switch to emphasize production when we start cranking WCs.
That gives us 1+16+18 = 35 turns before we need to have Horses connected. If we're going for the fast settler and then war chariots, I suggest this: 5 turns to finish the Farm at 2E 1S, 1 turn moving, 4 turns for a Road at 2E 1N (connecting the rivers), 1 turn moving, 3 turns for a Road at 1E 4N, 3 turns for a Road at 1E 5N, 3 turns for a Road at 4N, 6 turns for a Pasture at 4N (on the cows), 6 turns for a Pasture at 1E 5N (on the horses). That gives us both cities and the horses connected, and cows and horses available for city 2 to work, in 5+1+4+1+3+3+3+6+6 = 32 turns. Maybe we can build another Road somewhere along the way (if I haven't miscalculated). This skips cottages near Thebes for now (because if we're going for the chariot rush then production and connections are more important, not to mention the improvements that will make our early 2nd city actually useful).
DaviddesJ
Deity
ainwood said:
We aren't going to know that unless we prioritize Bronze Working and Iron Working, ourselves.
If we're going for the chariot rush, then we should rethink whether Writing, then Alphabet, makes sense. Upside is that Catherine will probably trade us some techs, before we kill her. Downside is that we aren't researching stuff that would help us build our army faster, like Bronze Working and Masonry.
MailMan
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B.T.W - I looked at the graphs at the submission page to try and learn what other teams done for opening plays.
- I think that only one team settled on place (or at least on the first turn) - Queens Men. This is by looking at the culture graph.
- 2/3 of the teams started with building a worker, I think the following teams started with building a warrior (by looking at the power graph): Chaos, Fifth element, Lunatics, madviking, Memphis Blues, Rat Pack, Team One.
The above is just a guess
- I think that only one team settled on place (or at least on the first turn) - Queens Men. This is by looking at the culture graph.
- 2/3 of the teams started with building a worker, I think the following teams started with building a warrior (by looking at the power graph): Chaos, Fifth element, Lunatics, madviking, Memphis Blues, Rat Pack, Team One.
The above is just a guess
MailMan
delivering
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Since I knew it going to be a very boring turnset - I played tonight.
Nothing much happened:
1. 3070BC
Buddhism FIDAL
a lion near by ate a Russian scout
I am sending the newly created warrior to deal with the wounded lion and than I will send him to be a fog buster up north
2. 3040BC
Pottery --> writing (16)
3. 3010BC
the warrior defeated the wounded lion
4. 2980BC
I think that Russia can only expand our way
5. 2950BC
zzz
6. 2920BC
notice that Russia can also expand south and Moscow has 2 archers
the worker finished the farm and spent 1 turn on building a cottage 1N of the farm
7. 2890BC
the worker start on a road to connect the rivers
send the warrior in Russia back of for some barbs defense
8. 2860BC
the borders of Moscow just got expanded which resulted with a flying warrior that was just bounced over the water onto a forested hill south west of our capital. On that hill the flying warrior feasted on a lion in order to get back the energy the flying exercise took. that energy manifested in a knowledge of fighting in forests and jungles (woodsman I promotion).
9. 2830BC
Our borders expanded
10. 2800BC
The northern warrior defeated a wolf
the worker finished the road.
The SAVE
Nothing much happened:
1. 3070BC
Buddhism FIDAL
a lion near by ate a Russian scout
I am sending the newly created warrior to deal with the wounded lion and than I will send him to be a fog buster up north
2. 3040BC
Pottery --> writing (16)
3. 3010BC
the warrior defeated the wounded lion
4. 2980BC
I think that Russia can only expand our way
5. 2950BC
zzz
6. 2920BC
notice that Russia can also expand south and Moscow has 2 archers
the worker finished the farm and spent 1 turn on building a cottage 1N of the farm
7. 2890BC
the worker start on a road to connect the rivers
send the warrior in Russia back of for some barbs defense
8. 2860BC
the borders of Moscow just got expanded which resulted with a flying warrior that was just bounced over the water onto a forested hill south west of our capital. On that hill the flying warrior feasted on a lion in order to get back the energy the flying exercise took. that energy manifested in a knowledge of fighting in forests and jungles (woodsman I promotion).
9. 2830BC
Our borders expanded
10. 2800BC
The northern warrior defeated a wolf
the worker finished the road.
The SAVE
Spoiler :
Attachments
DaviddesJ
Deity
Interesting--I think this is the most tense and exciting time, not boring at all. We have already made many key decisions that will have more effect on our results than most decisions later on, when more is happening but for the same reason no one decision has a big impact.
I'm somewhat doubtful about Writing vs Mining -> Masonry -> Bronze Working, given the trajectory we seem to be on (which isn't going to prioritize a Library for a long time?). I'd be more inclined to buy the techs that will help us build up. Still not clear whether we will find anyone else to trade with? If we are alone with Catherine, she probably won't trade us much of value.
I'm somewhat doubtful about Writing vs Mining -> Masonry -> Bronze Working, given the trajectory we seem to be on (which isn't going to prioritize a Library for a long time?). I'd be more inclined to buy the techs that will help us build up. Still not clear whether we will find anyone else to trade with? If we are alone with Catherine, she probably won't trade us much of value.
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Moscow is further south than I expected - forgot catherine was creative.
Re finding the location of her metals, we might be able to see what the workers are doing, but yes, if we're not prioritising bronze working, then its difficult (probably won't know until we see spears or axes). Catherine does start with both hunting & mining, so she will probably prioritise spears.
If we don't get alphabet, we won't be trading techs with her anyway. I agree that we need to be clear about which direction we're going in, and don't want to research ourselves into a half-way house. We are half-way to writing though, so completing it isn't too far out of our way if we choose the military route.
The calcs to date for the war option are to only have 2 cities. From the lay of the land, we have some great city locations - I think we should have three cities before we go on the war-path. This would allow us a bit more time to grab a library in Thebes and start on a GS for an academy. The main risk is that Catherine get more troops, and the delay in attacking her can be offset with more troops of our own in the form of more cities to produce them. I do note that cathrine has at least two mines already, and with cows she probably has good shield production.
What are people's thoughts on long-term trading with catherine? I've always found her quite difficult to trade with - not in tokugawa's league, but she seems hard to keep happy.
Edit - maybe there's someone to the south of her? A detour via sailing to get a galley out? (lower priority, but it would be nice to know before we play the xenophobe card on our only known competition).
Re finding the location of her metals, we might be able to see what the workers are doing, but yes, if we're not prioritising bronze working, then its difficult (probably won't know until we see spears or axes). Catherine does start with both hunting & mining, so she will probably prioritise spears.
DaviddesJ said:
If we don't get alphabet, we won't be trading techs with her anyway. I agree that we need to be clear about which direction we're going in, and don't want to research ourselves into a half-way house. We are half-way to writing though, so completing it isn't too far out of our way if we choose the military route.
The calcs to date for the war option are to only have 2 cities. From the lay of the land, we have some great city locations - I think we should have three cities before we go on the war-path. This would allow us a bit more time to grab a library in Thebes and start on a GS for an academy. The main risk is that Catherine get more troops, and the delay in attacking her can be offset with more troops of our own in the form of more cities to produce them. I do note that cathrine has at least two mines already, and with cows she probably has good shield production.
What are people's thoughts on long-term trading with catherine? I've always found her quite difficult to trade with - not in tokugawa's league, but she seems hard to keep happy.
Edit - maybe there's someone to the south of her? A detour via sailing to get a galley out? (lower priority, but it would be nice to know before we play the xenophobe card on our only known competition).
DaviddesJ
Deity
ainwood said:
I don't believe we're going to produce more troops with more cities. A settler is going to require 150 shields, which is 4 WCs already. Then the new city will have to grow before it's ready to make anything. It certainly won't have a barracks for a long time so it will be making unpromoted troops (not that the promotion is so important for WCs, since they can't get city attack, I think). We'll probably need a second worker to make these cities productive, which is another 3 WCs.
My guess is that we only need 6-8 WCs to march in and take her out. We can get there with two cities much faster than building a third.
With a different civ I would play very differently; I just like the idea of leveraging the particular advantage of Egypt. But it's a "more fun" analysis, rather than a "must do" analysis; if we want to build up and let her also build up so we have more cities to take, that's ok too. She's going to develop a tech edge over us, with all of those gems, though.
As I said, if there's no one else on our continent then I predict we get almost no useful techs from her. The AI is too reluctant to trade "monopolies". If she has more neighbors, then Alphabet may be worth more. We may not be able to figure this out.
If we're doing the early WC rush, then Writing by itself is of minimal value. Personally I would have chosen Mining, and I would now switch to Mining. We can save our progress toward Writing, after all, and finish it whenever we feel we're within 6-8 turns of actually starting a Library. On the other hand, if we're going to skip the WC rush, then finishing Writing and building a Library in Thebes (instead of Barracks or Granary) is perfectly logical. But then we should be building cottages with our worker, not roads for the horses. This is why I'm uncomfortable with the speed with which we're playing and making decisions---we're doing stuff that makes sense only if we're going in certain directions, which we haven't necessarily agreed on yet. I think we can go in any of several directions, but I'd like us to try to be consistent.
civ_steve checking in (while out of town).
I like the WC, but is it very useful in a 'continents' type of game? I have to assume that Gyathaar has balanced this game so that Domination and Diplomacy are roughly equal in terms of game time. So I don't believe we will find a lot of civs on our chunk of land.
If we have to cross the seas to take out other civs, will the WC do us much good or is it too weak? I ask this because if the other civs are overseas, and the WC isn't that effective, I'm not sure how much effort we should devote to getting them early on. If Catherine is the only other civ on our starting landmass (not known), do we hurt ourselves substantially by taking out our only initial, possible trading partner? Would this be similar to Civ3 where the more civs you know who knew a Tech, the easier to trade for it? (In my limited experience, it's more like increasing your odds that someone will trade, rather than reducing the cost.)
So we could spend time and effort to take out Catherine, which might delay us somewhat (or a lot) in finding other AI's, and slowing our Tech progress in research and trading. This is in opposition to our WCs losing effect as the game progresses.
I'm inclined to play more of a research game at the moment, and to search out whatever AI are out there. Writing gives potential for Open Borders, so we can clearly see what's in and behind Catherine. I would suggest we continue on to Alphabet. By the time we have learned that, we should know for certain if it's just us and Catherine. If so, I would be willing to trade even Alphabet for whatever we can get from her; after all, there is no one else for her to trade with so there's no harm as long as we get a good value. Then we can build up to take her out, if it makes sense, or keep her to help us research our way off the landmass. If there are more AI than Catherine, we will have more civs to trade with and we keep Alphabet for the time being.
If we are alone with Catherine, and if there are 3 or 4 such groups of civ-pairs, especially if they are separated by ocean, how long before we can make contact? If this is the likely case, and getting off-shore is one of the key points to the game, I would suggest we focus on the best path to do that.
I like the WC, but is it very useful in a 'continents' type of game? I have to assume that Gyathaar has balanced this game so that Domination and Diplomacy are roughly equal in terms of game time. So I don't believe we will find a lot of civs on our chunk of land.
If we have to cross the seas to take out other civs, will the WC do us much good or is it too weak? I ask this because if the other civs are overseas, and the WC isn't that effective, I'm not sure how much effort we should devote to getting them early on. If Catherine is the only other civ on our starting landmass (not known), do we hurt ourselves substantially by taking out our only initial, possible trading partner? Would this be similar to Civ3 where the more civs you know who knew a Tech, the easier to trade for it? (In my limited experience, it's more like increasing your odds that someone will trade, rather than reducing the cost.)
So we could spend time and effort to take out Catherine, which might delay us somewhat (or a lot) in finding other AI's, and slowing our Tech progress in research and trading. This is in opposition to our WCs losing effect as the game progresses.
I'm inclined to play more of a research game at the moment, and to search out whatever AI are out there. Writing gives potential for Open Borders, so we can clearly see what's in and behind Catherine. I would suggest we continue on to Alphabet. By the time we have learned that, we should know for certain if it's just us and Catherine. If so, I would be willing to trade even Alphabet for whatever we can get from her; after all, there is no one else for her to trade with so there's no harm as long as we get a good value. Then we can build up to take her out, if it makes sense, or keep her to help us research our way off the landmass. If there are more AI than Catherine, we will have more civs to trade with and we keep Alphabet for the time being.
If we are alone with Catherine, and if there are 3 or 4 such groups of civ-pairs, especially if they are separated by ocean, how long before we can make contact? If this is the likely case, and getting off-shore is one of the key points to the game, I would suggest we focus on the best path to do that.
DaviddesJ
Deity
civ_steve said:
I think that's impossible. I'll offer 2:1 odds that the 5 fastest wins are all Domination, and 10:1 odds that the fastest win is.
Obviously, we're not going to attack overseas with WCs---by the time we can get to other lands, they are long obsolete. The question is, if Catherine is the only other one on our landmass, do we gain more by taking her out early or late? In GOTM1 (admittedly at Noble difficulty so quite different) I think simply killing the Greeks at the earliest opportunity, and then developing the continent unmolested, was the best approach. You simply don't gain that much by trading with one other AI, because they won't give you many useful techs (in my experience). Plus the fact that Catherine has the gems, and we don't, is a pretty strong reason to attack.
If there are others on our landmass (with Catherine between us) then that's even a stronger reason. We should be able to find out once we get Writing and Open Borders (which is one good reason for finishing Writing---although we really need to set our direction now, imho).
I don't quite understand this part. Either there are others on our landmass, or not. Whether we attack Catherine isn't going to affect whether we find them. If we're alone on the continent, I think we will get to Astronomy (quite a bit) sooner by taking out Catherine asap, and then growing unmolested, than by sharing the land with her, or attacking later. If there are others on the other side of Catherine, I still think the same.
My own guess is that Catherine is in the middle and there's at least one other civ on the other side of her landbridge. But, of course, that's just a guess.
If we're going to attack Catherine with WCs, then I strongly believe that the sooner we do that the better---her defenses will be much less and I'm so much happier attacking Archers than Spearmen and Axemen. If we're going to try to out-tech her in the medium term, despite her gems and our lack of luxuries, then I strongly believe that we need to concentrate on cottaging up our capital and getting our commerce and science up. So these are two pretty different directions, and we need to pick one before the next set of moves (actually, I think we really should have picked before the last set---we played as if we're going for the WCs, not the cottages, and we've already cost ourselves quite a bit if we backtrack on that).
Anyway, I vote for the WCs, following the general schedule I described in #46. (It would be nice if someone would double-check my turn counts. And think about what we should do with the few extra turns. Note we can't build the horse pasture ahead of schedule, because we can't start it until we have cultural expansion from our 2nd city, assuming we're putting the 2nd city on the coast.)
MailMan
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I am very sorry that I played so soon without a proper discussion.
I like the WC rush idea, however I think we can finish research writing and get OB in order to use the time until we get our army ready to scout her backyard.
I also attached proposed city locations - please comment.
In the case that we are on a small landmass with Russia, we are better off without her. If we are on a large landmass with her, we may be better off with her - so scouting is important!
I like the WC rush idea, however I think we can finish research writing and get OB in order to use the time until we get our army ready to scout her backyard.
I also attached proposed city locations - please comment.
In the case that we are on a small landmass with Russia, we are better off without her. If we are on a large landmass with her, we may be better off with her - so scouting is important!
Attachments
DaviddesJ
Deity
MailMan said:
I just don't see the blue and orange dots as viable. In the desert, no fresh water, with -2 and -3 health penalties for deserts (respectively), the blue dot will be unhealthy as soon as it reaches size 2, and the orange dot will be unhealthy at size 1! Sure, we'll have a few health resources, but these cities will be very constrained by poor health.
MailMan
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I do not see FP as a health penalty, rather as a 1/2 food bonus over grassland (jungles on the other hand...).
What I mean is that unless the city is very unhealthy from the first pop point, we can just work the FP to offset the health problems.
Note that until we found those cities we will have 4 food resources: cow, rice, fish and crabs (I think it is crab in the orange city range). the fish and crabs worth double for coastal cities that can build harbors.
What I mean is that unless the city is very unhealthy from the first pop point, we can just work the FP to offset the health problems.
Note that until we found those cities we will have 4 food resources: cow, rice, fish and crabs (I think it is crab in the orange city range). the fish and crabs worth double for coastal cities that can build harbors.
DaviddesJ
Deity
Well, we can wait and see. It depends to some extent on when we build them. I hate to give up the +2 health from buiding on fresh water. But maybe I'm overvaluing that---I see the other side, too.
P.S. Those are clams, 2S from the orange dot. Note there are also clams near Catherine---we haven't seen any crabs yet.
P.S. Those are clams, 2S from the orange dot. Note there are also clams near Catherine---we haven't seen any crabs yet.
@DaviddesJ - my comment about delaying contact with the other AIs is if they are off-shore. This is another way of saying "let's decide which path to take" and I think we're all agreed on that.
I am deferring to your experience - let's take out Catherine with WC's, then build our empire unmolested (unless there's someone else behind her.)
A reminder - I'm out until the weekend. Good Luck!
(PS - I like the light blue site to the West. Rather than the Pink dot, perhaps on the River (plains space 3 to the right of the Pink dot; gets the health advantage of the river, several Floodplains and hills spaces, both Cows and horse - potential for very strong city with only one space overlap with the Capital. Found another city on the coast later for Fish)
I am deferring to your experience - let's take out Catherine with WC's, then build our empire unmolested (unless there's someone else behind her.)
A reminder - I'm out until the weekend. Good Luck!
(PS - I like the light blue site to the West. Rather than the Pink dot, perhaps on the River (plains space 3 to the right of the Pink dot; gets the health advantage of the river, several Floodplains and hills spaces, both Cows and horse - potential for very strong city with only one space overlap with the Capital. Found another city on the coast later for Fish)
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