SGOTM 01 - Realms Beyond

[Zalson]

So I return from my sojurn down to the southland to the REalms Beond team, in the SGOTM. I open up the save and am more than slightly dissappointed.

Some notes on the weed here people. Elephantine and Alexandria should be building granaries... I did not switch them, as we will need the scientists soon with our abysmal science rate, but c'mon guys. All cities that can be whipped (both have at least one seafood resource... Elephantine has 2) must build and whip a granary first. This will allow the other whips to be much better; faster regrowth means that they can produce infrastructure well.

Also, please do not whip Memphis or Heliopolis... and never, ever whip workers, except when we really really need them (which is not really the case now... we have almost enough, including the one being built in Thebes). Those are both excellent production cities, and will do more for us if we keep them humming along at size five, and working their mines.

Also, please don't whip cities within the same turnset, unless it is absolutely imperative! It creates residual anger which we don't have the resources to combat right now. So please keep that in mind, and restrain the whip.


This is not good!

Memphis and Heliopolis stayed unhapopy during my turns. But, we cannot afford anymore cities. We were wearing cutoffs without pockets, when it comes to cash situation.

Finally, I start my turn... set from 400 to 250 BC (just so's that I remember)... I won't put down exact turn numbers, but I'll remember when things generally happen.

415- I write the above commentary.

400- An archer attacks the 4 chariot army outside Moscow. It dies, naturally.

Next turn (385), we get our scientist. I MM thebes to work the maximum tiles for hammers and fud (can still grow on). Forget what I started it on, think it was a war chariot. Someone else also got a great scientist.

I also, for some reason, spot this!



WHY IS ELEPHANTINE HERE? One south, it would have been THE commercial and scientific powerhouse. It also would have had clams and Fish. Think of the possibilites! Come on people! What is up with this

Also, I thought my instructions, "RAZE ST. PETERSBURG TO THE GROUND!" were explicit enough. Guys, we could have fit in an extra city down there, had a nice canal with clams... argh.

I didn't even know when Elephantine was founded. Clearer reports, at least in this regard, would be very nice.

Instead of sticking the academy in Elephantine (where I intended it to go), I put it in Thebes. Argh! That made me so mad, that I alt-tabbed out, to post something on here.

I also being scouting to the south, remembering about that annoying copper mine.



Cathy has a farily large amount of dudes here. I'll take Moscow during my turn, and then leave the discussion of peace to the group.

355, I send us after the all-important construction. We'll need the Collessiums (sic), methinks.

In between turns, we meet Cyrus. We're not at permanent peace with him. Oh well, we're beating him in score.

310, Christianity is founded, and the Great Lighthouse is built.

I sent a group of a couple chariots down to pillage the iron, but Cathy managed to whip out a spear in Moscow, in response to our bronze blitz. So there was a spear in Moscow, that terrorized us for a while. I think it managed to kill a couple chariots I was trying to use to pillage.

In regards to the economy, I think the libraries (hmmm, that doesn't look right, librarys? no... nevermind) were a remarkable institue of foresight. We'll need to support our economy with scientist specialists, I think. At one point during my turn, we dropped to 10% science (don't worry, we were still at +4, or so). We're losing a LOT to city maintenence.

But methinks a solution will present itself

As my turnset draws to a close, I grouped halfadozen chariots (I think there were three injured ones), three axeman and an archer outside of Moscow. Figuring I had one turn before I had to give the game away, and that we were already suffering war weariness in Alexandria (acutally a nice city, but it needs a workboat and granary, even though it is currently on a library).

Wait, I mean Elephantine

So, as I prepared to mock both Hitler and Napoleon and take Moscow, a friendly bald man shows up. Please take a moment to compare:



Notice anything... not similiar?

Yessir folks, Gandhi is our future Permanent Alliance ally and peaceful civ. It really doesn't hurt that he also has a 200 point lead .

Anyway, I attacked Moscow, after trading some sort of resource we had a lot of (cows, I think) to Gandhi for another healt resource. I also converted to Judaism (ran into ... Yaroslavl')... I think we need to give Gandhi everything he ever wants, stay his religion, and never attack his friends... ever. Until we can get to communism and get a Permanent Alliance (ok, so maybe we can afford to go to war once or twice against his friends) *ahem* Cyrus*

The results went...

1st F2 Chariot- WINS!!!! GETS 6 XP~ 12 XP! I was so excited that I forgot that I was going to document the battle, that I was going to take a shot of us getting 110 gold for capturing Moscow... Which I did not raze...

That concludes it, guys. I think we should try to... um... keep our economy afloat now. Cathy is all but neutralized... spayed even... We need to build up our protective military, get our economy to recover (hopefully someone gets alphabet soon)... I expect to not see cities founded or kept in strange places.

I think we need more discussion beyond "Great Turnset!" We did well, but I know we can do so much better

Here it is... do well berserks01! Get our economy out of the drink! End this war with Catherine! Build up both our military and our relationship with Gandhi.

Please, no more wars. We can't handle it for a while:

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm1/Realms_Beyond_SG001_BC0250_01.Civ4SavedGame

 

[Memphus]

Well the only thing that made you really mad was the placement of Elephantine which was my doing, however I did give a reasoning for that...(one of which it would be suffering the same consequence of Alexandria right now all the :unhealthy:, the plus 2 health makes a large difference) If you look at the terrain possiblities and my initial explanation you will see why.

As for the whip. I have never actually converted to slavery, so it actually never needs to be used and you can still win effectively.


As for razing St.Petersburg? Again not my style I don't like to raze cities, although you mentioned we cold haev squeezed anotehr city in, but right now we need less cities and more science.

As for the Academy it should 99% of the tiem go in the captial, because that way when combined with Civil Service (which we could theorectically have by 1000 B.C. on Monarch, but no matter when we get it it will be good ) makes for the powerhouse Reasearch you are looking for.

One final Note At soem point we need a city in the north, not because it will eb an effective city but because it will let all of our otehr cities grow one more (two if they have a forge), if I remeber correctly that is silver up there

But in any event Good set of Turns

 

[Zalson]

The idea with st. petersburg was to convert a useless desert square into ... well, a NOT useless desert square. In addition, it would grab the extra clam, I think and, most importantly, it would be a canal city. I mean... well, it's done and over with, no point in getting mad about it now.

As for Elephantine... I really don't think the +2 health would have made a difference. It would have already a +2 from health resources, and a few fp's could be farmed. This, combined with the two sea food resources would be producing 17 food! at size 4. That's a surplus of +8. We'd be able to whip every improvement we needed (a very, very powerful tool).

In addition, there would be no overlap with the capitol (or minimal, I think... yeah, there would be overlap) and I really don't think the health difference would have been that bad... let me do the math.

7 FP's- 2.8 unhealthy. Wow. Ummm. Wow. However, it would balance out... I'm not quite sure what the Monarch health bonus is but I think that might, or might not make us unhealthy at 1. Which is bad. However, the use of Flood Plain Farms would more than make up for that loss of 1 food. Grab the fish and clams and you have +2 leeway. Grab the... wheat and the cows, +4. Healthy at size 5 with a granary, which is as far as we'd want it right now.

Wow. That was quite a bit of analysis on my part

I hope this doesn't come out as a personal attack. I think this is just an example of difference in playstyles. I'm trying to use the whip more (especially in high food situations), where it is the most effective thing since tupperware. As it would appear, you enjoy using the cottage spam technique. Both techniques have their merits... and both can be combined to with the SGOTM1! *cue evil laugh*

 

[BeefontheBone]

Gah! I was assuming there was some reason for leaving St Pete's where it is and letting that one go, but Elephantine is definitely in the wrong place. This is a team game, guys - I know some of you are new to SGs, but I would say that following the explicit instructions which come out of the discussions in this thread is pretty obviously a key part of playing one. If you do decide to ignore the rest of the team, we'd appreciate a lot of explanation or even pausing your turns to discuss it. At this stage of the game, for example, the exact location of cities shouldn't be a surprise to anyone opening the save...

Have we got a Galley in production yet? We need mor einformation about the world!

 

[berserks01]

Got it. Will play tonite. Let's see if I can end this war temporarily, build up some infra, and get a galley out there to do a little exploring (I think I notice some land in the fog on the south peninsula of Cathy's.

So what are we planning on building for infra? I only ever build courthouses, rax, and sometimes libs, monasteries, granaries. If no one has other ideas, courthouses rax and libs will be all I build.

 

[Memphus]

Alright yeah by no means is anythign a personal attack, I alkways take it as constructive critisism on how to improve my game .

In any event alright I guess that Is why I couldn't rationalize elphantine is I don't understand the whipping dynamics.

As for St.Petersburg I neevr really made a good reason on why to keep it, but I have one. WE had no settler read yor even clsoe to ready to fill the void. The result, we go the Copper right away, because St.Petersburg was kept which ultimately allowed us to build axemen and Take Rostov, So I guess everythign has pros and cons.

I wonder if there is some way we could standardize our posting (I.E. in Italics, Underlined) for moves wich you are "ordering" our other teammates to do. Suggestions could jsut be kept in regular type.

That way if two players don't see eye to eye there cold be a discussion about the choice.

For Example Zalson at the end of your last turn I would consider Orders:

Do not Go To War
Do not Whip Memphis or Heliopolis... and never, ever whip workers
don't whip cities within the same turnset

Something I would consider a Suggestion:

Get our Economy going

So I don't know it's just a suggestions but it would make things alot clearer for everyone to have bulleted Italic "orders"

 

[Mahatmajon]

Go team Go

All in all I think the Elephantine location will work out fine. I'm just looking at screenshots (at work) but there's now room for a city SE of Thebes that will have clams, floodplain, floodplain (shared with Eleph.), cows (shared with Thebes), river grassland, plains hill, & 11 water tiles. Good enough to support itself & contribute.

If these are the problems then this teams gonna be just fine. Not yet 1AD and we have a good friend in the lead and an island (soon to be) to ourselves. This is a good experience for first time SGers like me (even if I am a non-playing cheerleader on this one).

Keep it up!

 

[Zalson]

Get our Economy going

I heartily concur!

As for not whipping workers and cities... sometimes it is ok, and necessary. In several games, I've been forced to whip settlers to get the prime city locations. I don't think it's that big of a deal, but I do agree that going over what exactly you accomplished in your turnset and etc. would be good.

It took me a long time to learn how to use the whip... and I still am. Pretty much, it involves getting a few high food tiles, a a granary, and prompt patience (I apologize for the irony and oxymoronic value of that last statement). Crack the every 11-15, with fud!

EDIT:

The infra we need is: Granaries, then Libraries, then Courthouses, Markets, etc... but we really don't have the ability to build the last three We should prolli end up running scientist specialists in every city, just so's we can keep our research afloat. Check the whip anger at the beginning of your turnset, and then use it accordingly!

Do good! Or gooder! Berserks01, lead us to victory!!1!!one!1

 

[EL_OSO]

First,

I don't know what difficulty level the rest of you guys normally play at. I normally play at noble level on large maps with numerous civs and raging barbs. I have ventured into the prince level occasionally but found monarch a little too much for my skill level at this time.

Second,

I'm not really clear who is in charge here and making the critical decisions. I left the libraries in Elephantine and started one in Alexandria because I was under the impression that we were going to use them for science powerhouses. Apparently that wasn't the case and they were going to be used for whip houses. It would be nice if whoever was in charge of these sorts of critical issues would take the time to put it in writing into the forum. I'm not a mind reader and by no means am I an expert at Civ IV.

Thirdly,

I whipped all that stuff not really sure of the consequences. One thing for certain was that both Memphis and Heliopolis were already unhappy and still growing at a nice rate when I whipped them. I usually whip to manage happiness issues. I know the double whip that I pulled is probably the most damaging but in the end I stick by my decision to get those axeman for the assault on Moscow by saving roughly 8 turns in production in the process.

 

[berserks01]

Sorry guys, can't play tonite. Will play tomorrow morning.

Anyway, I looked at the screens and was thinking of taking Yekaterinburg to completely cut off Cathy from metal. Let me know if you're for or against this, if I don't hear anything by tomorrow morning, I'll make the decision on my own.

But, having said that, I will be getting a galley out asap, and building up infra in all other cities.

 

[Zalson]

Nah, we don't have enough troops, and we've gottan economy in the drink. Better to wait until we get some more and better troops.

@ OSO:
It is correct that Elephantine and Alexandria will be science megapolises in the future. However, in most games, I build a granary off the bat, especially if they have food resources. Don't feel bad, you didn't do anything wrong. We will need those scientists, very, very soon (as we can only make $ at 10% science), it's just that the whip is very much more effective with a granary, because it allows the city grow back so much faster. Don't worry, you'll learn. I know, I did. Try also playing some of the RBCiv things and reading some of the games posted by some of the better players; it'll do wonders for helping you out.

As for the whipping issue... I very much understand using it to manage happiness. But, you've gotta be careful, because if the city grows like a weed, you'll find yourself kneedeep in the dead and angry of the city, because whipping penalties add up. If I going to use it like that, I make sure that you use it on very expensive buildings, to make sure that the city can rebuild its pop in the meantime, and recover the happiness.

Don't worry about it, again.

The point of an SG is discussion of strategy, and then sticking to it. That's everyone's fault, and most of all mine. I was gone for the weekend, and didn't let you guys know. I'm sorry.

I like Memphus's idea about listing objectives... we should try to finalize what we're are doing, before an individual plays. I think that would be a great idea!

We're doing very well guys, check out the score graph. But we could be doing worlds better. One of the benefits of an SG is the ability to doublecheck with eachother. Also, if you have a question, don't worry about stopping to ask.

 

[Dantski]

So our main priority at the moment is to improve our economy. Grow the cottages if we afford to (I wouldn't recommend letting AI emphasise commerce, do it yourself!).

Cathy is some way behind us in production now, I don't believe she has access to any more land either so we don't need to rush into another war until our Civ can handle the economic repercussions.

Peace is good!

 

[berserks01]

Pre-flight-(250 BC): Switched (St. Petersburg, Rostov, Elephantine, and Alexandria) to granary. Switched Memphis to galley, and made peace with Cathy. Lowered science to 30% (Yikes!!!) still with some negative income but more manageable, and micro all cities to get more commerce, more production, and still grow if they're not angry. Whew, that was a horrible 5 minutes of my life, I've never had so many people angry at me at the same time before . I hit enter.

1-(235 BC). Some dude named Gibbon says we're 3rd largest civ ... we'll see about that soon enough. Ghandi wants fish for wheat, we agreed.

2-(220 BC). Ghandi wants open border ... sure, why not. Thebes finishes archer, continues granary. The only piece of land we see to the south has just been settled by Cyrus

3-(205 BC). Angry peons congregating in town square.

4-(190 BC). Moscow finally comes out of rivolt, ordered up a worker (we're so low on workers). Hielopolis attains serenity (it's just a nice way of saying those peons finally stop being angry at me!!!).

5-(175 BC). Tempted some peons to get back to work with ... ummm ... kind words and sharp torturing devices

6-(160 BC). We've got our first galley at Memphis, Memphis continued with whatever was in the queue (archer and war chariot at 1 turn each). Galley makes it merry little way to the land down south.

7-(145 BC). Memphis finishes archer, continues with war chariot.

8-(130 BC). Memphis finishes war chariot, ordered up a library.

9-(115 BC). We're finally out of the red and into the green on income. Micro around to stop some city from growing because we're at our happiness limit.

10-(100 BC). Thebes finishes granary, ordered up a rax.

And I'm done. We should have iron hooked up in 2 turns. Moscow will expand next turn to grab the cow, and that worker standing there is to be used to connect Moscow to our network. Please check the cities before switching the workers around cuz most of them have reached their happiness limit. The galley is heading towards the only piece of land outside our island. We need more worker to improve our land, and build more roads.

We should consider getting a settler down to that cow, or Cyrus's border will take it.

And here's the SAVE .

 

[Zalson]

Argh. I just wrote a bit on what we needed to do... and then forgot that when you go back, it doesn't save your words :rollseyes:

Good turnset. It looks like Yaroslavl' is ripe for whipping. I'd like each of our cities to have a couple archers, and then an axeman in them.

What are our relations with Gandhi? Should be at plus 5000! Or at least close.

Beef's up, Dantski's on deck.

 

[berserks01]

Ghandi's only pleased with us at the moment, but I expect it to change soon. I personally prefer an archer, an axeman, and a spear instead. One for all types of opponent.

 

[EL_OSO]

@Zalson:

Alright we're cool then. I just wanted you to know that I'm not trying to intentionally screw things up. I do use that thing above my shoulders occasionally and I'm here to pick up tips to improve my game. I can play emperor on Civ 3 so there isn't any reason why I can't get the hang of things in this version. I already micromanage and have stopped building wonders which are the key things to success at this game IMO.

Before I do my next turn set I'll wait at least 24 hours and check back here to see if there is anything you other guys have for suggestions. However, with that said I'm not the type of guy that is unsure of any of the decisions I make which means I'll do my ten turns without stopping the game to come ask for advise.

Later,

OSO

 

[BeefontheBone]

OK, here we go. Forgot to post a got it the other day - sorry.

IHT - 100BC:

Not a lot going on. We'll not finish researching Construction during my turns, but I'd like to recommend Calendar be done soon - we could use the extra luxuries. Come to think of it, why didn't we do Currency? That's the ultimate drag-your-economy-out-of-the-gutter tech

Delete a sign in the SW since Cyrus has nicked the spot.

T1 - 85 BC:

St Pete's finishes its Granary, continues the Barracks for a couple of turns.

T2 - 70 BC:

Yaroslavl' and Heliopolis finish a Granary and a Library respectively and start lighthouses. Iron is attached.

T4 - 40BC:

St Pete's starts Lighthouse. Zzzz.

T6 - 10 BC:

Something happens! We find Gandhi's land to the west.

T7 - 5 AD:

Hire a couple of Scientists in Thebes and start an aqueduct - not a lot else to do, and we've produced NO GPPs so far by my reckoning. Rostov finishes its Granary. I whip the lighthouse in Yaroslavl'

T8 - 20 AD:

Start Library in Yaroslavl' and Aqueduct in Memphis, Lighthouse in Rostov.

T9 - 35 AD:

Turns out Construction did come in in my turns (I shaved a turn off by adjusting the slider at some point, and we're generating more flasks). Start Currency - Gandhi already has Calendar (but refuses to trade it for the same-cost, his UU-enabling Construction - what kind of friend is he?) and we need the cash. I'd love to get the Colossus if we can, it's so powerful on this sort of map - Metal Casting should be high on the list next!

Switch Memphis to Colosseum (it's unhappy) and whip the library in Elephantine (just eating unhappy citizens anyway) - it'll do a Colosseum next.

Moscow finishes worker, starts Granary. Catapult started in Heliopolis.

T10 - 50AD: Church of the Nativity is built somewhere, fairly early - bit worrying, that.

Not a lot going on, but the infrastructure's getting better. I'd recommend the next player get a few more catapults going, add some colosseums and keep whipping whenever it's relevant - we'r elow on hammers and high on food here. Finishing off Cathy can wait until after we get currency, but not a long while after that - we need that land

save

 

[Zalson]

That makes Danstki up. Play well,'n' get us some Cats, some kind of monetary system and infrastructure.

 

[Dantski]

Sure thing! Feel free to debate everything for a bit since I'll be picking this up tomorrow.

 

[berserks01]

Not much to do at the moment. I think we're in the "infrastructure" building phase of the game and some exploring to decide our best route for domination.

On a side note, y'all should know that within a week or 2, I'll be dropping off the face of the earth for about a week due to my wife giving birth. And since this could be very unexpected, if I don't do a "got it" email when my turn comes y'all know'll to skip me.