SGOTM 01 - Short Straw

[RobertTheBruce]

Peace w/Cathy--I'd be inclined to accept after we get scouting we need--maybe after fishing if she'll give us a bunch of tech --ungy

I think peace sounds good too. This means Cathy will be able to mine the copper and build a few spears before we attack again but catapults should reduce our casualties for the final assault. We are only going to get one chance to extort techs from Cathy since the next war will clear her from our continent so try to get at least one good and one filler (ancient) tech. Metal Casting (to speed our great engineer) and Iron Working (to develop the gems) are techs I think we may need to get along with our drive to CoL and Literature.

Siz cities killed me during the emperor game of the month early on and I'm leary of adding Novgorod now. We probably could survive but I think building the economy and pushing for the Great Library is better long term.

We need libraries in our commerce cities to speed the research and for the GL. Do we know where we want to put the GL? I would propose Elephantine(?) the new city SE of Thebes for GL and National Epic. I steady stream of GS for academies and specialists plus another GE from Thebes for a third wonder.

I think we are in a good position but we will need the scientists to race the tech tree to optics for island hopping.

 

[Grogs]

We need libraries in our commerce cities to speed the research and for the GL. Do we know where we want to put the GL? I would propose Elephantine(?) the new city SE of Thebes for GL and National Epic. I steady stream of GS for academies and specialists plus another GE from Thebes for a third wonder.

Yeah, Elephantine looks like the best spot. If it's going to be our GP city, I'd say that's the spot to put it. We'll have to put a library there before we can build the GL, so we need to do that in the next 49 turns before our GE is born. Building the national epic there will be a pain without marble, but luckily we're under no time pressure on that one.

I think we are in a good position but we will need the scientists to race the tech tree to optics for island hopping.

Maybe others have had better luck, but on Monarch and above I usually don't find racing to Optics to be very productive. I usually have one of the AI's show up about 10 turns before I finish the tech.

 

[llib_rm]

Hello, I am catching up and will play soon. It looks like there is general consensus that the war ends soon; and a focus on gold, fishing, and a balance between axemen/libraries. It looks like my turn will be one of consolidation. In general, I plan to finish alphabet, end the war with Catherine, extort as many techs as possible.

 

[mushroomshirt]

Yeah, Elephantine looks like the best spot. If it's going to be our GP city, I'd say that's the spot to put it. We'll have to put a library there before we can build the GL, so we need to do that in the next 49 turns before our GE is born. Building the national epic there will be a pain without marble, but luckily we're under no time pressure on that one.

Seems like it is critical to get a fishing boat out to make sure there is nothing in Galley range. If something is in range we can pursue a classic warmonger strategy.

But if we are stuck, we are going to have to really gear up on the science. My instinct would be to cottage all cities except for elephantine (GP city) and build GL & scientists there. This is where killing Cat now (or after a short peace of extorting tech) could help - we could build cottages around ALL cities not just classic commerce cities & not worry about military until after astronomy.

Maybe others have had better luck, but on Monarch and above I usually don't find racing to Optics to be very productive. I usually have one of the AI's show up about 10 turns before I finish the tech.

I agree. In this situation (which I am not in very often, I'll admit) I usually find it better to go for currency at least before optics and maybe civil service, too. Bureaucracy, extra trade route, courthouses and cottages can keep the science coming in so we don't stagnate on our way to optics and end up hopelessly behind. Really I find it better to focus less on optics and more on building a good science infrastructure. After all, optics only gets us so far, we really need astronomy in this case.

Thinking about the endgame here, if we end up with a tech heavy strategy we might want to think about favoring the fastest diplomatic victory option by using our tech advantage to get to mass media ASAP. Combined with some good diplomacy, maybe this would be good for us.

Of course this is way outside my normal game so I have no idea what I am talking about here. My only diplomatic victories have been really just slow domination victories where you win the vote not because people like you but because you have so much population. (This is what happened to me in GOTM 3).

 

[llib_rm]

OK, here we go…
700BC: Inherit Science at 100%, Alphabet in 2 turns, Gold = 8 @ -14/turn

What to do about Catherine? I decide to not take Novgorod. We can pillage for gold and kill any archers she may send out. Once we acquired Alphabet we can sue Catherine for peace and extort techs. I split WC7 & WC9 near Moscow with WC7 moving SW onto the mined hill & WC9 staying on the cow.

Change science to 70%, MM Thebes workforce (farm to cottage) for Alpha in 3 turns, Gold = 8 @ -2/turn

685 BC: WC10 kills the barb archer NE of Memphis. WC7 destroys mine for 7 gold. WC9 moves NW – N onto sugar to eventually meet up with WC8 & WC12 who moves S towards Rostov from St Petes. There are now 8 archers in Moscow.

IBT: Four archers come south out of Moscow to the rice fields.
670 BC: WC7 defeats archer 1 of 4 (4.3/5). WC1 defeats archer 2 of 4 (no damage). WC6 defeats archer 3 of 4 (3.6/5) Consolidate WC1,6,7 in stack SE of rice field out range for Moscow reinforcements. WC10 moves N onto silver to bust fog.

Memphis Builds WC (Flanking I) who is sent to Elephantine since it is vacant. Memphis starts building Axeman. Workers between Thebes/Elephantine complete farm. Start on cottages for Elephantine. I know Elephantine is the GP site, but I plan to use three of the six flood plains for cottages. There will still be plenty of food with the clams, fish, & remaining flood plains. Getting some cottages up early will help our gold.

IBT: Lone archer (4 of 4) runs back to Moscow.
655 BC: Learn Alphabet. Gold = 5 @ -5/turn

WC 1,6,7 Moves SE to Novgorod. WC8 pillages mine on hill (9gold) and moves SW onto gem mine near Rostov. WC12 moves onto gem mine and pillages (8 gold) WC9 joins the party on gems.

There are 3 WC near Novgorod with 2 archers defending. 3 WC near Rostov with 4 archers defending. Offer peace to Catherine for Fishing and Polytheism. She accepts. WC 8,9,12 teleports S of St Petes. WC 1,6,7 teleport WSW of Novgorod next to the copper. Boxed in…

Thebes finishes WC14 (Flanking I) and starts on Library. WC14 goes S to kill Barb archer. St Petes builds Barracks starts on Axeman. WC11 goes N from St Pete to bust fog. Choose Literature (16 turns) for research because it has the wonders we want. Gold = 22 @ -4/turn

640 BC: WC 14 promoted (Flanking II) sent SW to bust fog. There is no more fog that can generate barbs near our cities. Catherine starts work on copper mine.

625 BC: Zzzzzzz

610 BC: Catherine wants to trade IW for Alphabet (Declined). I rarely trade alphabet, but in this case it may have been OK since we appear to be alone. What do you think??? Memphis builds Axeman (Combat I) who is sent to Heliopolis since it is vacant. Memphis starts on workboat. Worker sent from St Petes to Elephantine to start mine on grass hill.

595 BC: Whip a Library in Thebes for -2 pop.

580 BC: Thebes builds Library switch to worker for carry over hammers.

565 BC: Thebes switches to Axeman, growth in one turn. St Petes worker finishes mine starts on cottage to NW. Memphis Builds workboat and starts another. Workboat is sent across the northern passage to Elephantine to work the clams. Research lowered to 60% Gold = 0 @ +1/turn.

IBT: Moses BIDL.
550 BC: Thebes grows and switches back to worker. Add scientist (+6 beakers) to Thebes to hurry along Literature. Worker near Heliopolis finishes cottage and starts mine on grass hill. St Petes builds an Axeman (City Raider I).

IBT: Catherine connects copper near Novgorod and plans to settle the area.
535 BC: I cover the terrain to scare her off. I really want to keep the WC there to pillage the copper to start the next war.

520 BC: Catherine builds city and WC 1,6,7 get teleported SW of Rostov where I meet Cyrus. Not what I hoped for!! I wanted the WC there to pillage the copper for our next war. Cyrus will trade archery for writing (Declined).

505 BC: Memphis builds workboat starts on Axeman. Workboat sent to nearby fish.

490 BC: Zzzzzz

475 BC: Switch out scientist in Thebes. Literature is due next turn and I do not want to dramatically decrease the probability for a Great Engineer.

460 BC: Literature complete, start on Sailing. Memphis builds Axeman (City Raider I) and starts on another. Axeman sent to St Petes. Thebes finishes worker, continues on previous Axeman.

445 BC: St Petes builds Axeman (City Raider I) and starts on another. Whipped a granary in Heliopolis (-2 pop). Catherine starts a pasture for her horses SW of St Petes.

IBT: Cyrus converts to Buddhism.
430 BC: Heliopolis Builds Granary starts on library.

415 BC: Notice Catherine has converted to Buddhism, but not sure when. Thebes grows to max happiness, switch to settler.

400 BC: Memphis builds Axeman (un-promoted). I suggest we start on Heroic Epic here next.
Sailing in 2 turns. Gold = 3 @ -2/turn

I have really focused on improving the land around Elephantine. It has three developing cottages on flood plains, two mines, and started flood plain farms. Additionally, the workboat should arrive next turn to work the clams. You may want to take the workboat south to explore for a few turns before hooking up the clams. St Petes has a small force of axes ready for battle.

Up: Ungy
On Deck: Grogs

 

[mushroomshirt]

deleted post - sorry!

 

[Grogs]

Good job llib_rm.

The good news is, we're not alone in the world with Cat. I see that both Catherine and Cyrus are buddhists. That's both good and bad. It means we should get a religion before too long, but it will be the same as our nearest two neighbors. That will possibly cause extra unhappiness if we war with them and get us unhappiness penalties with the other Buddhists. Another thing is that both Catherine(!) and Cyrus are willing to give us open borders. That's probably not a good thing right now since she'd probably grab our land South of Thebes, but it would let us explore send a boat down to Cyrus's island to explore (somebody founded Buddhism) and to trade resources.

Tech-wise, I think I'd have to go for IW next. Everyone has it but we need it, if nothing else, for clearing jungle. After that, probably CoL. Drama and music are a couple more that may be interesting - music for the Great Artist (he'd research drama for his tech,) and drama (we get cheap theaters / +1 happiness.

EDIT: Also, has anyone noticed a bug with that save? There's an axeman icon in the upper right corner of the screen, telling us we've built an axeman in Memphis. When I click on it, it goes away no problem. I didn't notice the first time I opened the save, then I opened the save for another game and the icon stayed there - it was still telling me an axe had been built in Memphis although I was now playing as the Japanese. When I went to the main menu, it was still there and when I moused over it, it crashed the game.

 

[ungy]

Getting a few ideas together --I'll play tomorrow (US Eastern) so any thoughts are welcome

First I observe that Cyrus did not found buddhism so he has contact with at least one other civ. I would like to get open borders and scout his territory and get contact(s) but need to fill a gap or two first. Also we would probably get 5 or so gpt extra trading. there are 3 open spots for cities--by the silver to the north, by the cow and SW of thebes. SW of Thebes is the least attractive for us--Cathy can also settle w/o open borders. The northern city will give us the silver and by working the silver while we build lighthouse and granary it will basically pay for itself.
One possiblity I'm considering is building a 3 settlers and only founding the SW city if Cathy lands a settler

As far as herioc epic, I'll switch to Thebes. that will be our best production city as well as capital bonus.

As for research I will go COL which we should be able to trade for both math and IW and maybe fill in some missing techs. I think our path should be COL(trade it around), then construction to get cats. while I normally would go CS as soon as possible Cathy is more advanced than I expected and I think we need to get a move on or risk longbows.

As far as trading goes, I agree completely with the philosophy of not trading alpha unless absolutely desperate or others have it. The AI usually delays way to long on getting it and we can monopolize trading for a while.

A tech I like to get for trading is Metal working--as it costs more the AI will usually give you construction, currency, calender, etc.

As far as wonders go, I like the GL in elephantine. The only wonder that would be worth considering on my watch would be the lighthouse. Although it would be very useful, I think we're likely to miss it as we're way late in starting it. Later on I wouldn't rule out Colosseus or HG as both are pretty cheap and I would argue underrated.

I know we have economy issues and the last thing one typically does in that situation is found cities but:
the open borders are important--we might get ourselves buddhism and we will find one or more civs. That will give us trading partners as well as a better strategic outlook. We might also trade resources (I think we OK with Cyrus as long as we trade 10 turns before war w/ Cathy). The cities are close and I think it's bad long term strategy to let others fill in your empire even if you're planning their destruction (WW will defiinately be an issue in our next war).

Although we are planniing war w/Cathy I will not build units as we are already
paying 7gpt in maintance and construction is still a ways away. We will build them quick with HE in Thebes. --ungy

 

[mushroomshirt]

As far as herioc epic, I'll switch to Thebes. that will be our best production city as well as capital bonus.

Are you sure we don't want it in heliopolis? Thebes will be a great commerce city someday, but heliopolis could probably build military units now until the end game (especially if memphis lets heliopolis work the horse and cow).

I know we have economy issues and the last thing one typically does in that situation is found cities but:
the open borders are important--we might get ourselves buddhism and we will find one or more civs. That will give us trading partners as well as a better strategic outlook. We might also trade resources (I think we OK with Cyrus as long as we trade 10 turns before war w/ Cathy). The cities are close and I think it's bad long term strategy to let others fill in your empire even if you're planning their destruction (WW will defiinately be an issue in our next war).

I agree with you. Once we get CoL for courthouses and some cottage maturation our economy will pick up even with those new cities.

Although we are planning war w/Cathy I will not build units as we are already
paying 7gpt in maintance and construction is still a ways away. We will build them quick with HE in Thebes.

Are you sure about this? I think we really should get Cathy now. She will definitely hook up copper (if she hasn't already) and she probably has iron based on RTB's observation of suspicious archer movements. If we don't get her now it will just get harder.

I agree that getting open borders with Cyrus is important, we need to send a galley or fishing boat to explore his territory. Maybe we should start building our navy for the eventual attack on Cyrus too. The goal for this game is fastest domination or diplomacy and we won't help our cause by delaying military action to advance our science (now that we know we aren't landlocked)

 

[llib_rm]

Some random thoughts...

I like the CoL research path to trade for IW & Mathematics. After Math I suggest we either go for construction and take Catherine out quick, or get Music for the Great Artist and concentrate on commerce/science. Of the two, I would go after construction and eliminate Catherine quickly after builiding a "stack of cats".

Attacking a Buddhist is not so bad if you are Buddhist too, and if you take the Civ out entirely. You have the "Brothers of Faith" bonus that is greater than the "Attacking Their Friend" negative.

I agree on settling near the cow and silver. SW of Thebes may be left open. If Catherine does not have someplace close to settle she may settle in a distant land and we will have a hard time to finish her off.

I agree with Mushroomshirt about the HE in Thebes. Memphis or Heliopolis would be better.

Scouting around to meet others is a high priority for tech trading while we have a monopoly.

 

[ungy]

Are you sure we don't want it in heliopolis? Thebes will be a great commerce city someday, but heliopolis could probably build military units now until the end game (especially if memphis lets heliopolis work the horse and cow).

Had not thought about Heliopolis, and I can see your reasoning in that eventually it could outproduce Thebes. I counted 27 hammers at size 12--that would mean farming all the FP--including our cottages. Plus Heliopolis is size 2 currently (growing fast). Obviously a long time before it's built. I think much better in Thebes as at size 7 it can support 20 hammers and can still grow into cottaged FP as we can handle more pop. Not sure if I keep the settler build but if I do it's still built in like 25 turns or so. So it will be there for war with Cathy--turning out a unit almost every turn.

 

[ungy]

Are you sure about this? I think we really should get Cathy now. She will definitely hook up copper (if she hasn't already) and she probably has iron based on RTB's observation of suspicious archer movements. If we don't get her now it will just get harder.

the problem with a quick war is that I think it is very risky. I think we made a reasonable call in stopping but now that we have I think we're committed to waiting for catapults. We don't have anything now we didn't have when we were at war and the following problems:

1. as before we cannot take a stack in Moscow--assuming we have 12 or so attackers we are dependent on an AI blunder in leaving 4 defenders to have a chance. We could trash our economy waiting as that will be expensive.

2. We are worse off in that we already may be facing axes and spears--as you noted the possibility or iron as well as copper.


Also, while I'm aware that we are ultimately in a race, I think even if we win we crash our economy badly--4 faraway cities with some $ but not too much.
No way we continue on to take Cyrus so we risk falling out of the trading loop. so our next step might paradoxically be slower even if we're successful.

3. We might not be successful (see 1 and 2) and we would take a ww hit I think as well as relationship and major tech slowdown.

War with catapults will be easy--assuming cathy doesn't have just send a large mixed stack to Moscow with at least 7 cats. 15 units should do. Assuming 7-8 defenders, turn 1 reduce, turn 2 attack with cats. Probably lose something like 4-5 cats and all defenders are then weakened so that they are easy promotions for the other units. given that we can produce over a unit a turn I think the other cities go easily after that. Keep 3-4 units fortified in case she sends her mobile force to attack us. She's gone I think in 20 turns max--almost 100%. --ungy

 

[mushroomshirt]

Had not thought about Heliopolis, and I can see your reasoning in that eventually it could outproduce Thebes. I counted 27 hammers at size 12--that would mean farming all the FP--including our cottages. Plus Heliopolis is size 2 currently (growing fast). Obviously a long time before it's built. I think much better in Thebes as at size 7 it can support 20 hammers and can still grow into cottaged FP as we can handle more pop. Not sure if I keep the settler build but if I do it's still built in like 25 turns or so. So it will be there for war with Cathy--turning out a unit almost every turn.

Well, at the end of the day it is your decision, of course. I do appreciate your desire to put Cat out of her misery.

On another note, looks like my turn won't come up before I head out of town Tuesday. I should be back in town Thursday and ready to play Friday. Grogs, maybe you could drop me a few slots down in the rotation if others are ready to go while I'm gone? Thanks.

EDIT #1:

the problem with a quick war is that I think it is very risky. I think we made a reasonable call in stopping but now that we have I think we're committed to waiting for catapults.

In this case, can I suggest math & construction before CoL? With our cottages, hopefully the economy won't take too big of a hit & we can trade math for IW if we want (EDIT#2: or maybe we can't since the AI already has it - I'll have to check again - in this case maybe CoL is better, but riskier...). I don't think we need to worry about Cat getting catapults too much since we will be on the offensive.

 

[Grogs]

Had not thought about Heliopolis, and I can see your reasoning in that eventually it could outproduce Thebes. I counted 27 hammers at size 12--that would mean farming all the FP--including our cottages. Plus Heliopolis is size 2 currently (growing fast). Obviously a long time before it's built. I think much better in Thebes as at size 7 it can support 20 hammers and can still grow into cottaged FP as we can handle more pop. Not sure if I keep the settler build but if I do it's still built in like 25 turns or so. So it will be there for war with Cathy--turning out a unit almost every turn.

You make a good point. In general though, I don't really like building the HE in my capital. I almost always run the Bureaucracy civic after CS, and as a result my capital becomes a commerce giant - usually *the* commerce giant. That makes me want to put a market, library, grocer, uni, bank, etc there, so it doesn't spend a whole lot of time building units. That civic also gives +50% hammers in the capital, so that's rarely a problem anyway.

Of course, if we're going the 'pure' dominator route, we may be better running vassalage, in which case it's a moot point. I'll be the first to admit that while I can build mighty empires that dominate the world in every aspect, they tend to be well balanced, and as a result not particularly fast at achieving victory.

On the techs: I like CoL. It's a useful tech and it gives a useful civic, though admittedly as a creative civ probably not as much (I run artists in conquered cities to expand borders.) If we're looking for it mostly for trade value, we may want to re-evaluate after we get priesthood. If both Cat and Cyrus already have the tech, trading it for IW and Math is obviously out of the question.

I can also see from looking at the map that there's land east of us. If you hover the mouse over the ocean tile 2 NE of the easternmost mountain, it has 1 commerce, which means there's land nearby (you only get the gold on an ocean tile if it's within the fat cross of a piece of land.) Unfortunately, that fact isn't very useful since we would have to expand the culture of Heliopolis 3 more times before we could bridge it. We'll probably get to Astronomy a good deal faster than that.

 

[Grogs]

On another note, looks like my turn won't come up before I head out of town Tuesday. I should be back in town Thursday and ready to play Friday. Grogs, maybe you could drop me a few slots down in the rotation if others are ready to go while I'm gone? Thanks.

I think that's doable. With 8, we're bound to have people missing their slots, so it's probably best to be flexible.

Along those lines, after Ungy plays, we will have completed our first rotation. We should probably discuss whether we want to keep the turn length at 20, or drop it to 10 or 15. There are two real factors I see. First, if we finish quickly, we may do it in 350 turns or less. That would be really fast for me, but certainly not unrealistic. If that happens, most people will only get 2 turnsets. The other factor is the RL time to play each set. When I get into the heavy duty war mode, I spend anywhere from 15-20 minutes per turn, so 20 turns could take me 5-7 hours.

 

[ungy]

I agree with Mushroomshirt about the HE in Thebes. Memphis or Heliopolis would be better.

I'd like to hear some detail on your HE reasoning. I am sensitive to the fact we are playing a team game and you had picked Memphis. As I see it, the main advantage Memphis has is that we could avoid building library, marketplace, etc and just go 100% production. Also if we want to build hanging gardens Thebes would be a better place so we could make Thebes a wonder city as it will have most production (especially after CS). Also the 50% bonus for capitol does not stack on the production side(while it does on the commerce side). What I don't like about Memphis is it encourages us to work some mediocre or downright poor tiles (all the tundra) instead of a couple of cottages and some fishing. We're also ultimately capped a little low.

We probably have about 40 turns before construction so I guess we could get HE up in Heliopolis by then. We could be size 7 there and producing 19 by cannibalizing the good tiles from Memphis. As I think more about it I like Thebes less as we will clearly want to build more other things there so a little extra production doesn't help as much and the commerce gets a bonus before multipliers.

One obvious drawback is to get its production up we have to cannibalize Memphis.

I guess I now think you can make an argument for any of the three--I'd like some others to weigh in and get a consensus before I proceed. I'll also think about it some more. I'm pretty certain about waiting for catapults to attack Cathy--I'd have to hear some good arguments to shake me there and sounds like people are on board the open borders strategy and the COL research and trade then construction (I think we will not complete COL on my watch).

I was planning on playing tommorow so comments please--especially about the HE. I can also play Tuesday so maybe I'll wait if no consensus. --ungy

 

[ungy]

On the techs: I like CoL. It's a useful tech and it gives a useful civic, though admittedly as a creative civ probably not as much (I run artists in conquered cities to expand borders.) If we're looking for it mostly for trade value, we may want to re-evaluate after we get priesthood. If both Cat and Cyrus already have the tech, trading it for IW and Math is obviously out of the question.

Yes I am assuming that neither Cyrus nor Cathy has it. I think we're OK as neither one has priesthood (Cyrus lacks writing as well)

 

[ungy]

You make a good point. In general though, I don't really like building the HE in my capital. I almost always run the Bureaucracy civic after CS, and as a result my capital becomes a commerce giant - usually *the* commerce giant. That makes me want to put a market, library, grocer, uni, bank, etc there, so it doesn't spend a whole lot of time building units. That civic also gives +50% hammers in the capital, so that's rarely a problem anyway.


.

Care to weigh in on Helio vs. Memphis? I think I'm slightly leaning Memphis now.

 

[ungy]

I can also see from looking at the map that there's land east of us. If you hover the mouse over the ocean tile 2 NE of the easternmost mountain, it has 1 commerce, which means there's land nearby (you only get the gold on an ocean tile if it's within the fat cross of a piece of land.) Unfortunately, that fact isn't very useful since we would have to expand the culture of Heliopolis 3 more times before we could bridge it. We'll probably get to Astronomy a good deal faster than that.

great observation--never would have noticed. Unfortunately I can't think of anything different to do--can anyone? -ungy

 

[ungy]

I think I'm leaning Memphis for HE--when I look at helio I just see too many cottages in its future and enough hammers to build all the buildings --ungy