SGOTM 01 - Short Straw

[ungy]

In this case, can I suggest math & construction before CoL? With our cottages, hopefully the economy won't take too big of a hit & we can trade math for IW if we want (EDIT#2: or maybe we can't since the AI already has it - I'll have to check again - in this case maybe CoL is better, but riskier...). I don't think we need to worry about Cat getting catapults too much since we will be on the offensive.

I think COL is better as we can almost surely trade it for both IW and Math--I think IW is unlikely on trade. We are also likely to have met another civ by then as well for trade. Also I assume we will go CS after construction so we need COL for that as well

 

[Grogs]

Yes I am assuming that neither Cyrus nor Cathy has it. I think we're OK as neither one has priesthood (Cyrus lacks writing as well)

Good catch. Not sure why I thought everyone already had priesthood. That being the case, I think CoL is our best bet for the next tech path. Assuming we've got some good trading partners, metal casting might be an option after construction since, as you've noted, it costs a lot and can be traded for any other tech around it on the tech tree.

great observation--never would have noticed. Unfortunately I can't think of anything different to do--can anyone? -ungy

Nope. I think Danthor gets the last laugh here. I believe he's the one who was advocating moving Heliopolis 1E. That would have let us bridge the gap (maybe) at 750 culture, rather than 5000, which isn't happening anytime soon. Of course it could be a continent with 2-3 civs on it, or it could be a 1 tile desert island. Either way, we won't know for quite some time.

Care to weigh in on Helio vs. Memphis? I think I'm slightly leaning Memphis now.

Sure. Memphis would be my last choice of the three we've discussed. It's a great early game city, but even working both cows and the horses it only has 5 good tiles. After that they're all average-poor, so as max city sizes increase, Memphis will become less and less of a superstar.

Heliopolis, on the other hand, has the potential to be a super hammer city, all the way into the mid-late game. With the cow, the horse, 3 mined hills, 1 cottage FP, and 2 farmed FP, Heliopolis is spitting out 19 hpt at size 8, 23 at 10, 26 at 12. At size 8 with the HE, it would produce 2 swords/catapults every 3 turns. Memphis would come in at 16hpt at 8, then max out at 17 from 10 on. I think we're better off, once Heliopolis is fully grown, converting Memphis to a commerce city. Even with the one cow and the mine it would have enough production to build libraries, markets, etc and 4 cottages plus 6 coast tiles would bring in quite a bit of commerce.

 

[llib_rm]

I'd like to hear some detail on your HE reasoning.

I was planning on playing tommorow so comments please--especially about the HE. I can also play Tuesday so maybe I'll wait if no consensus. --ungy

I like Memphis because it currently has the best hammer production and we could get HE out in 20 turns. Add a few workshops and we would get decent production to about size 10-12. Turning Memphis into a commerce site has less potential because there are only four(?) tiles that can be cottaged. Adding HE would make a moderate city relatively productive.

To be honest, I did not consider Heliopolis. Being commerce starved, I started to cottage the remaining flood plains. Farming those over and mining the hills would make a good production city for HE. But Memphis would remain mediocre.

Thebes looks like a great commerce/science city. It has good food, a quarry, and lots of room for cottages. Building HE in Thebes would leave Memphis as a mediocre city and force Heliopolis to focus on commerce.

From my point of view, having Thebes for commerce/science, Memphis for unit production, Elephantine for commerce/GP, Heliopolis for commerce/production look like the best overall usage for the four.

 

[ungy]

Some last thoughts on HE:
I'm sure we're all in agreement that its only value for us is the hammers--forget the culture, ga.
So I think it boils down to the following analysis: HE will add hammers equal to the cities hammer production less any turns the city does not produce units. There is also the opportunity cost of not working commerce tiles at the city to work hammer tiles. Another factor is how quickly it could be built.

Thebes suffers a higher opportunity cost from other construction as it will surely build commerce buildings and with CS the commerce tiles get a bonus on their base while the hammers get the bonus along with all the other mods.

Heliopolis has a high opportunity cost as it would really be useful to cottage all the FP and to do so would gimp the production a bit (might still make sense) and would also want the commerce buildings. Heliopolis also suffers a delay penalty--I think at least 20 turns before we could start the build. also there is an additional opportunity cost as with HE it will take two good tiles from Memphis. So those aren't "found" hammers--just improved somewhat.


Although Memphis is the weakest of the three, it has the advantage of the lowest opportunity cost as well as one of the two with the timing advantage.

I'll wait to play tonight so hopefully we can get a few more thoughts on the matter but my gut feeling is that commerce will still be a big issue for us and I'm leaning for developing Helio commerce and HE Memphis.
Thebes will still surely produce a lot of units. I may convert at least one farm to cottage if we go that route.

looking longer term we rate to capture some decent production from Cathy and St Pet will also produce some units. --ungy

 

[ungy]

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After that, probably CoL. Drama and music are a couple more that may be interesting - music for the Great Artist (he'd research drama for his tech,) and drama (we get cheap theaters / +1 happiness.

.

Theaters need dye for the happy. So I don't think a priority

 

[Grogs]

Theaters need dye for the happy. So I don't think a priority

Not a short term goal certainly, just something I thought I'd throw out. They do give an extra happy face for each notch of the culture slider (also enabled with drama) and that may be useful in the near-mid future. Being able to work 2 more citizens in each city can easily pay off that 10% in culture.

As for Memphis, I guess I wouldn't object too much to building the HE now, especially in light of the fact we can build it now, while Helio really needs to build a barracks and such first. That would give us 4 good cities that can all spam units once we're ready for a war.

Also, looking at that silver site, we might try pulling our fogbusters back and putting a couple of troops near Memphis/Helio to deal with any barbs that spawn. This would get us promotions for existing troops, and it's possible the barbs would build a city up by the silver. If they'll do that, that's one less settler we have to build. One axe and one WC (plus an axe in both Helio and Memphis) would be plenty to keep us safe up there. When we're ready to go to war with Cat again, we can simply put a warrior or whatever back up there to bust fog again.

 

[RobertTheBruce]

Wow, lots of changes during the last set of turns and more war mongering before Astronomy.

Also, looking at that silver site, we might try pulling our fogbusters back and putting a couple of troops near Memphis/Helio to deal with any barbs that spawn. This would get us promotions for existing troops, and it's possible the barbs would build a city up by the silver. If they'll do that, that's one less settler we have to build. One axe and one WC (plus an axe in both Helio and Memphis) would be plenty to keep us safe up there. When we're ready to go to war with Cat again, we can simply put a warrior or whatever back up there to bust fog again.

There is an additional benefit of 1 gpt for pulling back. We currently have 3 units near cyrus and 3 fog busters so we have a maintenance cost to the fog busters. We are going to want a galley to start scouting Cyrus so pulling back a couple of fog busters might be prudent since we have other uses for beyond culture units.

Also, why don't we have open boarders with Cyrus? I assume we will switch to Bhuddism as soon as we get it (No cost with Spiritualism) so building the open boarder bonus and trading in 2 turns will help with tech trading if he gets anything we want.

We may want to speed prep for the war with Cat (Math and Construction) so we can speed the spread of Bhuddism into our empire with chariots.

Edit: oops, I love war too much. We need CoL first too so no reason to rush toward Construction.

Cyrus is probably on the same continent as the founder of Bhuddism so I would suggest open boarders with everyone and a scout transported across as fast as possible to find another trading partner.

Also, any opinions about trading Alphabet on monarch? I usually don't hold onto it too long since I find I'm better off trying to trade it to 2 or 3 other civs.

 

[Danthor]

Wow, lots of changes during the last set of turns and more war mongering before Astronomy.

Indeed!

Do we have Iron working yet? Do we have a tech to trade to the 2 civs we know? As long as we get at least 2 techs for each tech we hand out, the benefit is on us. We NEED to trade!

 

[ungy]

Also, any opinions about trading Alphabet on monarch? I usually don't hold onto it too long since I find I'm better off trying to trade it to 2 or 3 other civs.

I think is a serious error to trade alpha on monarch. I only trade it after at least one AI and usually 2 have it. Is just huge to monopolize trading. Only trade it on higher levels if desperate.

 

[ungy]

Here goes:

400 BC --brought home one sentry as wasn't needed to reduce costs
Decided to leave HE in Memphis--not sure it was the correct decision but for the following reasons: want to focus more on commerce in helio--just couldn't bear all those FP farmed and sitting empty for a while. They should be cottaged. Thebes will outproduce Memphis, but not by that much and Thebes will be a powerhouse and need all the commerce buildings. We also might want wonders which would go in Thebes. So net I thought we might not gain any hammers by going Thebes and we have more flexibility for Thebes without it.
Start library in St. PT.--axe can wait
fishing boat scouts and then will work clam

385 BC was planning on waiting a few turns to trade writing to Cyrus for arch but he now has it. zzzz

370 sailing complete start priesthood. Start galley in Memphis.

355 Somehow I go from -1g to -4g? research to 50% Odd as all changes I had made upped gold slightly. St Pt did grow to 5 tho and hel to 3. Start settler in ST. PT
Cathy offer OB--I decline

340 zzz

325 zzz

310 complete priesthood Homer born (music somewhere) start COL Cathy is mining gems (10 turns)

295 galley built

280 Xe Li shi? born in a faraway land

265 Settler in Thebes, HC >organized religion send settler to silver. build another settler in Thebes. Plan to send down to the sugar (I think forested hill is best) and camp out. Found city only if Cathy comes to settle
Hel., Mem, Thebes working cottages--no farms.

250 zzzz

235 Cathy unfortunately will not give open borders now. I guess I should have taken it earlier but was afraid of her settling. Open borders with Cyrus
This was a blunder. I'm not sure why but I thought I couldn't trade with Cyrus through Cathy. Should have signed OB immediately with Cyrus to get exta 1g/city.

220 Alexandria founded by silver.

205 send galley to try and get around Cathy but no luck

190 Cathy demands priesthood which i give --hoping to get back normal relations but no luck.

175 Settler in St Pt., Nabirammi born in faraway land. St. Pt> lib. Will fill in by the cow. Open borders with Cathy (thankfully)

160 BC Taoism founded. That seems early to me. Someone is pretty advanced. Silver hooked up. Found Pi-Ramesses by cow. Switch to work silver at alex (no growth tho)

145 Great Lighthouse built in a faraway land. Catherine sends 2 archers in to scout. forest/plains/hill chopped as city site sw.

130 Gandhi shows up and is quite advanced with metalcasting. He is buddhism founder and has a big score. He is our permanent peace as I cannot declare war on him. Rostov grows culture and we lose a square.
Sign OB with Gandhi.

115 lose jungle square with gems. this is a disappointment but maybe we get back when library done. Moscow has axe, spear,2 arch but only spear is promoted. Settler built in Thebes--started axe for lack of anything better

100 BC we get the gems back. COL in 3 turns not much happening this turn.
I guess I played most of it but was little in any case. Library will be ready for (hopefully) GL in Elephantine.

 

[ungy]

The save is up--not sure how to post a screenshot.

Couple of closing thoughts--we're basically on track with our plan here.
I would recommend trading COL when we get for Math and IW with cathy and Cyrus (someone should throw in archery as well). I think Cathy has fewer units than I would have expected so I think construction next and then build cats for war. I would also consider HG in Thebes--lots of little reasons--don't think we need a bunch more axes and we will eventually need aquaduct there anyway. HG is cheap and we might make use of the GE and we can surely use the health the growth too as we will have gems soon enough (although WW coming soon).

Grogs you will want to adjust the tiles in Elephantine-- had to adjust to get library in time.

At least Gandhi won't attack us when we take out his buddhist buddies.

If war is quick we could consider a fast move on Cyrus--from the score he looks weak but we will know more when we get him scouted. --ungy
--ungy

 

[ungy]

. We should probably discuss whether we want to keep the turn length at 20, or drop it to 10 or 15. There are two real factors I see. First, if we finish quickly, we may do it in 350 turns or less. That would be really fast for me, but certainly not unrealistic. If that happens, most people will only get 2 turnsets. The other factor is the RL time to play each set. When I get into the heavy duty war mode, I spend anywhere from 15-20 minutes per turn, so 20 turns could take me 5-7 hours.

I would probably vote for dropping it a bit for all the reasons you mention

 

[Grogs]

355 Somehow I go from -1g to -4g? research to 50% Odd as all changes I had made upped gold slightly. St Pt did grow to 5 tho and hel to 3.

Most likely changes in civic costs. Population is one of the factors and there are some weird breakpoints in there.

130 Gandhi shows up and is quite advanced with metalcasting. He is buddhism founder and has a big score. He is our permanent peace as I cannot declare war on him. Rostov grows culture and we lose a square.
Sign OB with Gandhi.

Oh, these cruel, cruel SGOTM designers. I guess I didn't expect it would be Tokugowa or Montezuma though. It makes the prospects for a diplomatic victory very unlikely in my mind.

100 BC we get the gems back.

Any chance that worker will finish the mine? That would be pretty nice. If we're able to trade for CoL for IW, no big deal though.

Random thoughts now...

OK, tech-wise, I think my best course is to trade Ghandi and Catherine CoL for Math, IW, and archery. I say this because we still have priesthood over Cyrus, so we may be able to get Calendar or Construction, if he has them, for CoL+Priesthood from Cyrus.

I see one resource Ghandi has we could use badly - wheat. That will give us +2 health with a granary, and with all these FP's, we'll need it. We have no resources to offer him atm, but once St. Pete expands in about 11 turns, we'll have a 2nd clam we can trade. Hopefully that will help us hold on to the gems as well.

We'll get our GP in 2 turns. We've got a 7% of getting a Great Scientist instead of a GE. If so, his tech would be math, or if we've already got math, philosophy. I would personally favor putting an academy in Thebes though. Assuming we get the Great Engineer, do we still want to build the GL in Elephantine? It makes sense from a GP perspective.

EDIT: One other thing. Since it looks like we'll have to take out some off-continent AI's to win a domination victory, a semi-beeline for Astronomy would seem to be in order. There is some good news on that front: great scientists can help us tremendously, as Compass, Optics, and Astronomy are all GS techs. The bad news is that if we have either Theology or Civil Service the GS will research paper->printing press->education instead of Astronomy. Anyone have suggestions for getting to Astronomy early?

 

[llib_rm]

We'll get our GP in 2 turns. We've got a 7% of getting a Great Scientist instead of a GE. If so, his tech would be math, or if we've already got math, philosophy. I would personally favor putting an academy in Thebes though. Assuming we get the Great Engineer, do we still want to build the GL in Elephantine? It makes sense from a GP perspective.

I agree on what to build, an academy if GS, or the Great Library if GE. But why place the academy in Thebes instead of Elephantine?

 

[Grogs]

I agree on what to build, an academy if GS, or the Great Library if GE. But why place the academy in Thebes instead of Elephantine?

I think Thebes will produce more beakers in the long run. With Bureaucracy, a library, and an academy, we'll get 2.6 beakers for each commerce directed towards science there. It also has more hammers available to use for constructing a University, and eventually Oxford U, so putting an Academy there as well allows us to really specialize science there. Elephantine, on the other hand, doesn't have a whole lot of hammers, so it's going to struggle quite a bit to build thing like a University to really specialize in science.

 

[ungy]

OK, tech-wise, I think my best course is to trade Ghandi and Catherine CoL for Math, IW, and archery. I say this because we still have priesthood over Cyrus, so we may be able to get Calendar or Construction, if he has them, for CoL+Priesthood from Cyrus.
QUOTE]

we will not be able to trade COL to Cyrus until he has priesthood. I think better to stick with the general strategy of trade with the least developed first. Gandhi will have lots to trade with us, maybe metal working after he builds Colosseus.

 

[ungy]

I see one resource Ghandi has we could use badly - wheat. That will give us +2 health with a granary, and with all these FP's, we'll need it. We have no resources to offer him atm, but once St. Pete expands in about 11 turns, we'll have a 2nd clam we can trade.

Sounds like a great idea--will we lose our trade route once we start war with Cathy? If so, we should make sure we get 10 turns of trading in with Gandhi before the war. Fish can also be worked near Elephantine for trading

 

[ungy]

EDIT: One other thing. Since it looks like we'll have to take out some off-continent AI's to win a domination victory, a semi-beeline for Astronomy would seem to be in order. There is some good news on that front: great scientists can help us tremendously, as Compass, Optics, and Astronomy are all GS techs. The bad news is that if we have either Theology or Civil Service the GS will research paper->printing press->education instead of Astronomy. Anyone have suggestions for getting to Astronomy early?

I'd vote CS after construction, and as far as the GS go, I just generally like to use them for acadamies. Since we have 3 good sites for acadamies I'd go that route. Getting a tech in this situation just isn't that big I think--can be huge to trade around if behind but not our situation. Is still possible the rest of the world is reachable w/o astro--we'll probably know after the next set of turns. Is possible we get Cyrus with ancient units but if we have to take someone else out with astro we need advanced units. My guess is it will not be a quick game as HC is likely fairly advanced and will have a lot of units. If we have to launch an invasion from afar we will need lots of advanced units and a big economy to support it.

 

[ungy]

As for long term strategy--I think we're likely to have to pretty much conquer the world x Gandhi. I'm weak on diplo victories but I think difficult to get him to vote for us after at least 2 DOW on his co-religionists. He seems large enough that we probably need most of the rest and domination probably comes before diplo.

I gotta stop posting so much

 

[RobertTheBruce]

I agree that domination should be our goal although diplomatic may be possible. If H.C. stays confucian and is larger than Ghandi in the end game, (we may need a great artist or 2 to bomb a couple of Ghandi's cities to make this happen) we may be able to keep Ghandi's votes even after eliminating Cathy and Cyrus due to common religion. Hopefully civ #7 isn't confucian. Diplomatic victory doesn't require many techs after astronomy. (Sci Meth, Physics, Electricity, and Mass Media I think)

I don't have much to add since I'm in agreement with Ungy and Grogs: CoL and trade for Math, Construction and then eliminate Cathy and Cyrus. Cyrus was probably boxed in by Ghandi's expansion so we won't get much land on the second island but hopefully a few resources.