SGOTM 01 - Short Straw

[ungy]

thanks Alan

 

[ungy]

Hi all--sorry for the late start here.
Some general thoughts about our position: since we are looking for diplo or domination I think a lightening game will not happen and we should initially develop our base prior to conquest. I would plan on getting 3-4 settlers out quickly and cottage spamming the flood plains. We have a lot of good close city locations and with a strong economy we can handle a lot of conquered cities.
I would get some more warriors out to scout and get a handle on our continent as well as sentry later when we might see barbs. If Catherine has some tempting targets war might make sense sooner rather than later. Also finding other civs(or finding we're alone with Catherine) will help plan strategy enormously

Our biggest short term problem will be happiness--our cities will grow to 4 quickly and we don't have any luxuries yet. I would think that and the value of police state later would make Pyramids pretty key with the stone.
--ungy

 

[mushroomshirt]

Not at all! In CO-1 we mined some pigs near our capital because we put off AH for a long time, going to BW and IW first. I think it was a 3f/3h/1c tile with the mine, which was pretty useful in the early going. IIRC, we left it as a mine for quite a while after AH because there was plenty of food in the capital and we already had pigs. I think mining the stone would give us 5h on the stone tile, which is exactly the same as a quarry would. Of course, we won't have stone as a resource, but if we're not pursuing early wonders, we don't really need it right now.

Do we have some thoughts on the future tech path? I don't want to waste a mine on that stone if other folks here are more interested in wonders than I usually am.

Personally, I wouldn't build a barracks in Thebes, at least right now. As you noted, we've got a production powerhouse site just north of us with the horses, and with the Rice/Cow/Stone/FP tiles, Thebes is an ideal spot for building Settlers/Workers. I think 2 cities specialized for particular tasks are better than 2 generalist cities. If I could have any one building in Thebes right now, it would be a granary for faster growth, especially after rushing.

I hear you. Of course a granary will not be an option for me. I think maybe I will build all warriors. Good for worker stealing, fog busting, scouting.

I also like specialized cities. Sounds like you are suggesting Thebes as a worker / settler farm? In this case I might prefer some more up-front population growth. Maybe I should farm some of those floodplains? After we build our workers / settlers it will make a natural GP farm. I've seen some folks like to turn their capital into a commerce city and have a separate GP farm, but I have never been able to get this right in my games.

I'd say we'll also need a 2nd worker pretty quickly also, either right before the settler, or right after.

My vote is right after. If we build our first settler at size 3, then Thebes will only be working improved tiles. We can build the settler (maybe with some chops) send him up by the horses with the worker. The second worker can continue to improve Thebes when he pops out.

IIn our case, we wouldn't need the culture, so it would be for the great prophet you get after 75 turns. The great prophet will research the next available religion, so it's usually possible to found one of the fairly expensive later religions (Christianity or Confucianism) with him. If you're alone on an island (I thought we might be during our first few turns) and missed the early religions it's a good way to grab one. I've played a few games stuck alone on an island with no religion until Astronomy, and it's pretty painful.

Never tried this. I understand the principle alone on an island, but we have at least 1 civ with us. My instinct would be to crush him as soon as possible (without too much infrastructure building / religion)

 

[llib_rm]

I am relieved that Huayna is not in the vacinity. I like Ungy's suggestion that we build a base before conquest.

The location in pink is the site Danthor suggested (I think). I agree that it should be the spot for our second city.

The green location looks good for a GPP farm sometime in the future. There are 9 flood plains in the cross and an extra hammer in the city base.

I suggest we rethink our research path. After mining we could detour to pottery before BW. This will give us a granary and early cottages. BW should be complete around the time we have a settler for our third city. We can can settle near the copper should one appear.

I normally avoid wonders, but happiness will be a problem. Hereditary Rule should be an early target. If we decide to build the Pyramids, lets not waste worker time on mining the stone. We should consider researching Masony after pottery and before BW to get a jump start.

 

[mushroomshirt]

I am relieved that Huayna is not in the vacinity. I like Ungy's suggestion that we build a base before conquest.

The location in pink is the site Danthor suggested (I think). I agree that it should be the spot for our second city.

The green location looks good for a GPP farm sometime in the future. There are 9 flood plains in the cross and an extra hammer in the city base.

You know, now that you put it this way, I'm definitely on board with this. My thought of the second city at [2,2] ruins the future GP farm.

My only request is that the GP farm is our 4th city, not the 3rd. I think the 3rd city should be founded near copper if there is any nearby.

I suggest we rethink our research path. After mining we could detour to pottery before BW. This will give us a granary and early cottages. BW should be complete around the time we have a settler for our third city. We can can settle near the copper should one appear.

I'll consider this, but I think BW is best for lots of reasons. I agree that pottery should be our next priority (for granaries mostly). After that I suggest alphabet (for demanding techs from Russia in peace deals), then CoL. Don't know where people normally throw iron working in there. I guess if there is no copper around we may want to hit this sooner rather than later.

I normally avoid wonders, but happiness will be a problem. Hereditary Rule should be an early target. If we decide to build the Pyramids, lets not waste worker time on mining the stone. We should consider researching Masony after pottery and before BW to get a jump start

I agree (I think). Maybe we should take a poll about who wants to build either stonehenge or the pyramids. If most people want to build those wonders, I won't mine the stone - otherwise I probably will go for it.

Q:will we want to build either 'henge or pyramids?
mushroomshirt: no
llib_rm: ??

anyone else?

[Edited because on second read I'm not sure what llib_rm is suggesting]

 

[ungy]

I like farming flood plains instead of rice to get the extra 1g--although i generally like to get cottages there we have lots of fp and can cottage later.---ungy

 

[Grogs]

I'm not very fond of that green city. It's neither coastal nor on a river and with all those FP's, it's going to have some serious health problems before it gets very big. I was thinking the desert hill 4E of Thebes would be a great GP site - 6 FP+Fish. Since it's coastal, we can put a harbor there to help keep it healthy. It's pretty hammer poor, but with slavery and a granary it could pop-rush to speed things along.

One thing we definitely need to discover on the next turnset is whether the land to the SE goes somewhere or not. If it connects to the main continent(?) we probably want to consider throwing our 3rd city there to block it off. It's usually a good idea to build *towards* the AI during the land grab phase, then turn around and fill in the 'safe' sites after our borders touch. This also helps crowd out the AI so it can't grow as large as it would otherwise.

Also, I'm a big fan of the pyramids when I'm trying to play a balanced game and leave all my options open. However, since we're limited on victory conditions here, I think going for them probably means one less early war. If we get to a point where we've conquered/settled all the cities we can and our economy is straining under the weight of our military, I might reconsider, but for now I'd say no.

EDIT: I also forgot to add: Welcome aboard Ungy! I've got you on the roster now:

Grogs - Just Played
Mushroomshirt - Up
Lmtoops - On Deck
Danthor
RobertTheBruce
llib_rm
VirusMonster
Ungy

 

[Danthor]

The location in pink is the site Danthor suggested (I think). I agree that it should be the spot for our second city.

Yes.

The green location looks good for a GPP farm sometime in the future. There are 9 flood plains in the cross and an extra hammer in the city base.

I don't think the city base gets an extra hammer since it is a desert/hill.

I suggest we rethink our research path. After mining we could detour to pottery before BW. This will give us a granary and early cottages. BW should be complete around the time we have a settler for our third city. We can can settle near the copper should one appear.

I normally avoid wonders, but happiness will be a problem. Hereditary Rule should be an early target. If we decide to build the Pyramids, lets not waste worker time on mining the stone. We should consider researching Masony after pottery and before BW to get a jump start.

I agree on waiting on BW.
I strongly vote for Stonehenge (great priest -> religion as Grogs said) AND Pyramids for the gov. civic + great engineer.

Also we should wait on the horde of warriors mushroomshirt wants until we know our surrounding land better. Do we have a cape to the SE? or an istmus leading to a peninsula or maybe even to a big continent?

What I propose is get a the second city ASAP to get the horses and get War chariots to explore/pillage. (then stonhenge )

 

[VirusMonster]

What I propose is get a the second city ASAP to get the horses and get War chariots to explore/pillage. (then stonhenge )

I could not agree more. War chariots should be our primary goal. Utilize our special unit plz. Hooking up the fish early sounds good to me too.

Perhaps we should look what is beyond the 4 mountains on the east before founding the 3rd city. I would rather place the 3rd city somewhere on the south.

 

[Grogs]

Perhaps we should look what is beyond the 4 mountains on the east before founding the 3rd city. I would rather place the 3rd city somewhere on the south.

You know, come to think of it... I'm very suspicious of those mountains. Remember this is *not* a random map, although the degree of engineering done to it is always unknown. There may be something hidden behind them, possibly the Incas, possibly good land for settling. A detour to research fishing may be in order in the near future - one work boat for the fish and one for exploring.

On Stonehenge: The utility of Stonehenge is pretty situational. We may not need or even want to found a religion. There is one neat trick that's possible with a Great Prophet though. If we research CoL by hand, we have both polytheism and meditation, and* we have not researched masonry, he'll grab Civil Service, which is quite an expensive medieval tech that gives us macemen, irrigation chains, and bureaucracy.

 

[ungy]

the more I think about this position the more I go in favor of Pyramids. this is about as much food as I've ever seen and no close luxuries as well as stone.
what it might cost us is a quick knockout of Catherine. i would argue that with the start we have we can surely crush any nearby AI especially one that is not a warmonger. By going to war later we will capture better developed cities(also extort tech) and with spiritual we can flip between PS and Rep. I like getting the engineer for the GL as well.

I would lean against stonehenge for the GP as it gets in the way of the engineer but don't have a strong opinion there. I'm not sure if I've ever built stonehenge with a creative civ.

I would not be in a hurry to build granaries--our cities will grow quick enough to the cap and I think we have more important builds for the near future.

I would agree with getting the second city ASAP and with the consensus location on the coast--I'd probably build 3 warriors which gets us to size 2 and then go settler/worker/settler.

As far as tech goes, I'd vote for BW before Pottery. I would use the worker to irrigate a FP as we will be building settlers and workers here for a while and then build a road up to city site #2 to hook up the horse and also get +2 gold from trade routes. I think BW gives us flexibility to chop settler 2 and helps planning. I don't think we're quite ready yet for a cottage spam and we have some good worker uses at city 2. I'd be thinking most likely BW, Pot, Mas should give plenty of time for pyramids.

I'd also check periodically with Catherine to see if Incas turn up --ungy

 

[VirusMonster]

On Stonehenge: The utility of Stonehenge is pretty situational. We may not need or even want to found a religion. There is one neat trick that's possible with a Great Prophet though. If we research CoL by hand, we have both polytheism and meditation, and* we have not researched masonry, he'll grab Civil Service, which is quite an expensive medieval tech that gives us macemen, irrigation chains, and bureaucracy.

Forget maceman until machinery. I would rather delay bronzeworking, since I prefer massing our UU instead of slow walking axeman. With sufficient war chariots, we can easily pillage their copper resources later on, thus they won't be able to counter chariots with spearman or axeman. War chariots can rule the continent if played right.

I also prefer Pyramids built(if necessary research BW and chop some forest to fasten it up), but are not we playing on Monarch difficulty, thus very hard to build a wonder before the AI does? But we got stone up(assuming we research masonry), we might try to go for Pyramids anyway.

 

[Grogs]

Forget maceman until machinery.

Beh! I always forget about that requirement. I do agree with you that the war chariots make for a much faster conquest though. Actually, a lot of the really fast conquest/dominations I've seen in the GOTM's stuck to primarily horse units - HA/knight/cavalry for their wars. I've never gone that way myself, save for a first war with a horse-based UU (war chariots/immortals.)

I also prefer Pyramids built(if necessary research BW and chop some forest to fasten it up), but are not we playing on Monarch difficulty, thus very hard to build a wonder before the AI does? But we got stone up(assuming we research masonry), we might try to go for Pyramids anyway.

If we start early and make a concerted effort, we can most likely grab them. Industrious is only +50%, compared to +100% for stone, so we've got an advantage over them. With 22 possible leaders, 6 industrious, for the other 4 AI slots, probably 1 is industrious. If the industrious civ also has stone close by, we're probably boned, but that's a fairly unlikely scenario.

I did some math on building the pyramids in Thebes and it comes out pretty favorably. At size 5, we could pull 17hpt x 2 = 34hpt (rice+cow+stone+plains hill+grass hill.) That would get the pyramids in 20 turns. That's pretty darn quick for the pyramids. Of course we have to grow Thebes to size 5 to pull that off, which we can't do while we're building workers/settlers.

EDIT: Also, if we want to pursue this, we need to focus our techs in that direction. Masonry to quarry the stone and pottery for putting a granary in Thebes for fast growth after the settler/worker combo are pretty essential for pursuing this path.

 

[mushroomshirt]

Well, it sure is tough to please everyone! Hopefully you all will be OK with my decisions (highlights are BW, focus on food, mining the stone, building warriors). In any case here is the synopsis:

Turn 21
3400BC - switch from working cow to working floodplains. I am thinking we will need to grow faster in order to get our settler out. Will switch back to cow after pasture is complete (sorry Grogs!)

Turn 22
3370BC - Zzzz...

Turn 23
3340BC - Zzzz...

Turn 24
3310BC - Warrior1 is fully healed. A panther shows up 2SE. I'm going to try to steer clear of him and head 1SW. There is another cow! And a tiny isthmus of land. Which way is Moscow? SE or SW?

Turn 25
3280BC - at this point I am torn about which way to take Warrior1 - I suspect Catherine is SW but I don't want to get too far away from Thebes, so I head to the hill to the SE. Of course the panther is 1NE,1N from that hill so I expect to be attacked between turns. I expect Warrior1 can take him and maybe get a promotion!

Turn 26
3250BC - The panther takes Warrior1 down to 1.0 strength. I take combat 1 promotion and start healing on the hill (at 1.5 from the promotion healing bonus). Also this turn pasture is finished so I switch to working that.

Turn 27
3220BC - I forget whose advice it was on the boards, but whoever said farm the floodplain instead of the rice was right. I move the worker 1N and start building a farm on that floodplain. A lion shows up 2SW of warrior1. Hope he stays away.

Turn 28
3190BC - Warrior is built in Thebes. I start moving him SE to see what is in that corner. The lion that was 2SW of warrior1 disappears into the fog. I start another warrior build in Thebes (sorry Danthor!)

Turn 29
3160BC - both warriors move 1SE and it looks like in both places there is not much over there. A panther shows up right next to warrior1! Man, is he getting some bad luck.

Turn 30
3130BC - Finally we finish research on mining. I move on to bronze working. I move warrior1 1SE so he can heal on the forested hill and I move the other warrior 1 SW to another hill. In both cases I find the sea. Looks like Catherine is SW as I thought. I can catch a glimpse of her boarders to the SW from the forested hill. Must be Moscow. SE of Thebes is another mountain. Looks like there is nothing but sea beyond it though. Also I find sugar to the SW of Thebes in a jungle square. There is also a sugar near Catherine.

Turn 31
3100BC - Buddhism is founded by someone (not Catherine). Warrior 1 is set to heal on the forested hill. I want to send the other warrior up 1NE to make sure the north is safe and maybe see if there is sea or land beyond the mountains to the east.

Turn 32
3070BC - Thebes grows to size 2! I start working floodplains and the pasture. Personally I like to wait until size 3 to go for settlers so I'm keeping on with the warrior. The second warrior moves 1NE and finds clams off the coast! Grog's GP suggestion (or rather 1S on the desert tile) is starting to look awesome with clams and fish and lots of flood plains.

Turn 33
3040BC - a forest grows to the W of the lake. Guess it will take a little longer to get the worker over to the stone tile. second warrior moves 1N and sees what looks like some ocean behind at least two of the mountains to the E. Third warrior moves 1SW. He and warrior1 are going to see about stealing some workers from Catherine.

Turn 34
3010BC - second warrior moves 1N (just w of the mountains). 3rd warrior moves 1SE

Turn 35
2980BC - warrior1 is healed and he starts heading over to Catherine with the 3rd warrior. 2nd warrior moves 1N.

Turn 36
2950BC - 2nd warrior moves 1N and sees what looks like another mountain and 1 ocean space to the east of the two northernmost mountain squares to the east. warrior1 continues toward Catherine while the 3rd warrior makes a slight detour to reveal a forest E of the sugar. Farm is also finished this turn. Thebes is almost ready for that settler!

Turn 37
2920BC - 2nd warrior moves 1N and reveals another fish to the NE of Thebes. Warrior1 and the 3rd warrior head towards Catherine. Warrior1 finds his old friend the lion to the SE again. I guess this time I better look for a place to defend since he is between us and Catherine. I send the worker NE Thebes.

Turn 38
2890BC - I don't want warrior1 facing the lion head on so he moves 1W and reveals clams off the coast. Warrior2 moves up towards the hill by the horses as a fog-buster for our future settler. Warrior3 continues toward Catherine. I make the executive decision to move the worker towards the stone. We can mine that first. It'll take us some time to research masonry even if that is the tech path we choose. We can benefit from the extra hammers now for our settler build. Since we will likely be at size 3 for a while, it's probably no skin off our nose to take some time to replace the mine with a quarry if that's what we decide to do.

Turn 39
2860BC - Warrior 1 backs away from the lion (1NE) to the hill. Hopefully the lion will follow and attack where there is some defensive bonus. Warrior3 continues toward Catherine. Warrior 2 sits on the hill 1E of horses. Worker arrives at the stone.

Turn 40
2830BC - looks like the lion will not take the bait. I'm biting the bullet and moving both warriors 1 and 3 towards the lion and Catherine. Worker starts mining the stone. Thebes grows to size 3 (and culture expands). Thebes starts working the stone and I switch production from warrior to settler. Warrior2 moves up to the tundra hill 1N of horses. There is a clear no-fog shot for our future settler to head up there.

Well, there you have it. Here's the link to the save http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm1/Short_Straw_SG001_BC2800_01.Civ4SavedGame

Here are the final screenshots...

 

[Danthor]

Turn 40
2830BC - looks like the lion will not take the bait. ....

How come the screenshot shows 2800 BC ?

 

[Grogs]

How come the screenshot shows 2800 BC ?

Good catch! I never noticed because the save had the right date on it. The discrepancy is ms counted my last turn (3400 BC) as his first/turn 21. The turn you get the save doesn't count against your 20 - it's a 'freebie.' It should be at the end of the turn, so there's usually not much to do but maybe move some citizens around and do some trades. The next player, for example, should play to the end of 2200 BC (turn 60.)

Well, it sure is tough to please everyone! Hopefully you all will be OK with my decisions (highlights are BW, focus on food, mining the stone, building warriors). In any case here is the synopsis:

Nice work. I think you made some pretty solid decisions and we look like we're in pretty good shape.

I find it very odd indeed that only Bhuddism has been founded and it wasn't founded until 3130 BC. We could have researched it faster than that.

Now that we see more of the world map, it seems pretty obvious that the only way to reach the rest of the continent (assuming there is one) is by going through Catherine. We could block her off completely by placing a city near where the 2 warriors are standing. I actually *don't* recommend that. I'd rather have her build cities towards us and capture them with war chariots, but I just wanted to throw that out there.

After the mine on the stone finishes, I recommend we send our worker to pasture the cow 1NE of the lake. That way our new city can work that tile as soon as it is founded and get a jump on its barracks.

A worker steal sounds like a good idea. I have to admit I don't do it much though, so perhaps some who are more familiar with that can advise on how good of an idea it is.


More long term, I think we've got about 3 options we can choose from:

1. Build the Pyramids
2. Build Stonehenge
3. Screw the wonders and just start slamming out war chariots

I don't think we can do 1 AND 2. I think we'll probably get beaten to at least one of them. As for 3, we can start building war chariots either way, it's just that building a wonder will slow that process some. Looking at the map, I would choose option 1 (the pyramids.) The only happiness resource around is sugar, so the +3 happiness from representation will help us grow some big cities. Also, when we get code of laws for caste system or build libraries, the +3 beakers per specialist is really nice. If we can build the pyramids by around 800 BC (turn 100) I think we have a very good chance.

 

[Danthor]

I make the executive decision to move the worker towards the stone. We can mine that first. It'll take us some time to research masonry even if that is the tech path we choose. We can benefit from the extra hammers now for our settler build. Since we will likely be at size 3 for a while, it's probably no skin off our nose to take some time to replace the mine with a quarry if that's what we decide to do.

don't you think it would have been more time effective to irrigate another floodplain since we are building settler? (so you don't loose turns moving across forest and hills) after all, we are putting a quarry that later.

Well, since the worker is already there, can it pls build roads to the city to save a few turns for the future please?

 

[mushroomshirt]

don't you think it would have been more time effective to irrigate another floodplain since we are building settler? (so you don't loose turns moving across forest and hills) after all, we are putting a quarry that later.

Well, since the worker is already there, can it pls build roads to the city to save a few turns for the future please?

Well, when building a settler you sum up the total of food and hammers as your effective "hammers" for the purpose of building a settler. That's why I thought mining stone (5 hammers - I think) is slightly better than irrigating a flodplain (4 food "hammers").

(I think) The only real drawback to mining the stone is that we will eventually want to switch to a quarry. I don't think this is too big of a deal since we will probably be at size 3 for a while.

 

[mushroomshirt]

Good catch! I never noticed because the save had the right date on it. The discrepancy is ms counted my last turn (3400 BC) as his first/turn 21. The turn you get the save doesn't count against your 20 - it's a 'freebie.' It should be at the end of the turn, so there's usually not much to do but maybe move some citizens around and do some trades. The next player, for example, should play to the end of 2200 BC (turn 60.)

Oops!

Nice work. I think you made some pretty solid decisions and we look like we're in pretty good shape.

Thanks!

A worker steal sounds like a good idea. I have to admit I don't do it much though, so perhaps some who are more familiar with that can advise on how good of an idea it is.

This is pretty much a staple of my game. The trick is patience. It will be hard with a cultural civ like Catherine because her boarders will be large. Basically you lurk just outside her boarders near something she will want to work (like cows or pigs). When the worker shows up - nab him!

If you declare war on a turn where you can't immediately capture the worker, it's too late because the worker will run back to Moscow. Under some circumstances this is a good idea because even though you don't get the worker, Catherine will turtle up and not send out any workers or settlers to expand her infrastructure. It would let us pillage her improvements (just as long as we avoid her archers and moving our warriors next to her cities). Our warriors will basically be toast if attacked.

At a minimum even if we don't get a worker, just declaring war with some warriors near her cities will seriously stunt her growth. Particularly if we do this in the early game we can really cripple her.

1. Build the Pyramids
2. Build Stonehenge
3. Screw the wonders and just start slamming out war chariots

I don't think we can do 1 AND 2. I think we'll probably get beaten to at least one of them. As for 3, we can start building war chariots either way, it's just that building a wonder will slow that process some. Looking at the map, I would choose option 1 (the pyramids.) The only happiness resource around is sugar, so the +3 happiness from representation will help us grow some big cities. Also, when we get code of laws for caste system or build libraries, the +3 beakers per specialist is really nice. If we can build the pyramids by around 800 BC (turn 100) I think we have a very good chance.

With the 1.61 patch, representation only gives you +2 happy.

I'm sure I'm in the minority at this point, but I vote for #3. (probably no surprise)

 

[Danthor]

Well, when building a settler you sum up the total of food and hammers as your effective "hammers" for the purpose of building a settler. That's why I thought mining stone (5 hammers - I think) is slightly better than irrigating a flodplain (4 food "hammers").

(I think) The only real drawback to mining the stone is that we will eventually want to switch to a quarry. I don't think this is too big of a deal since we will probably be at size 3 for a while.

Exactly, for only 1 extra hammer (plus 1 less commerce) the lost working turns is big. Well, not THAT big, but still important enough to notice it.