SGOTM 01 - Short Straw

[Lmtoops]

I played last night, but had server problems and could not send any thing. All is well now, and here is my turn.

Turn 40 2800 BC
Worker1 switched to road Stone (on next turn). Fortify War1 and War3 to wait out the lion. Thebes is now working unimproved FP; science increased, but BW is still in 8t. War2 moves NE of Horses

Turn 41 2770 BC
Lion moves to other hill, still in sight.

Turn 42 2740
Lion still there...maybe I should risk it...nahhh
Catherine adopts Slavery..so she has BW.

Turn 43 2710
Lion moves to grassland NW of War1. War1 has been fortified, so if lion attacks, he should win easily.

Turn 44 2680
War1 wins with 0.9 health left; fortify to heal. War3 moves to cow tile. Worker1 moves SE. War2 is exploring a bit to in the North.

Turn 45 2650
War2 see horses and gems in the South. Catherine has a Settler and Archer in this area, I'm sure she will build a settlement very soon.

Turn 46 2620
Catherine builds St. Petersburg just S of the cow. Since War2 is in the cultural borders, he is teleported back to our territory. I cannot explore past St. Peters. So War1 and War3 take on Fog Busting duties.

Turn 47 2590
Finish BW, and start researching Masonry (12t). St. Petersburg has copper within the fat cross...damn. Hopefully it is her only source of copper, we can knock it out early into the war.

Turn 48 2560
Worker1 moves to plains cow...per Pyramid plan. Settler in 5 turns.

Turn 49 2530
Start pasture for plains cow

Turn 50 2500
Yawn

Turn 51 2470
Tacticus reports the Wealthiest Civs. Catherine #2, Inca #6, and Short Straw #7(last)

Turn 52 2440
Yawn

Turn 53 2410
Settler completed and moving to coastal site. I like this location better...the Blue Circle can never be wrong Thebes is building Worker2, next.

Turn 54 2380
Yawn

Turn 55 2350
Memphis is founded and will build a barracks. Worker1 is moved N-N, then I realize this is a mistake since horses are not in my cultural border, yet.

Turn 56 2320
Worker1 moves to grassland cow and pastures. I noticed that St. Peters cultural borders have expanded to include the copper. She is not mining it, yet.

Turn 57 2290
Yawn

Turn 58 2260
Discover Masonry. We did not discuss what to research next. I figure Pottery is a safe choice.

Turn 59 2230
Yawn

Turn 60 2200
Inca and Russia did not met throughout my turns. Catherine has a worker in the copper area...will she mine it, probably. Should we steal the worker?? Danthor can decide.

Turn Order:
Grogs
Mushroomshirt
Lmtoops - Just Played
Danthor - Up
RobertTheBruce - On Deck
llib_rm
VirusMonster
Ungy

Link to current game:

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm1/Short_Straw_SG001_BC2200_01.Civ4SavedGame

 

[Lmtoops]

My internet connection worked long enough to post my turn thread upload the save to the SGOTM site, and it went out again. So there will be no screenshots.

Edit: I'm writting this email from work. Shhhh, don't tell the boss. Oh, I'm the boss!!!

 

[Danthor]

I've just opened the savegame and find that Russia is close (12 turns) to getting copper and we have 4 puny warriors, not even archers.

In a few turns I'll be forced to attack the worker to prevent Russia from getting Spearmen, which would completely own our projected War Chariots.
So, I'm switching research to Hunting, then Archery to get some decent units.
Warriors are no use since Catherine built his city on hills and has probably 2 or more archers. Pottery is really no use in the near future, granaries take too long to buid considereing our cities are currenty limited to size 5 and 4 due to happiness. Plus, they grow fast enough on their own.

*sigh*

 

[Grogs]

Turn 55 2350
Memphis is founded and will build a barracks. Worker1 is moved N-N, then I realize this is a mistake since horses are not in my cultural border, yet.

Yeah, that was one of the reasons I liked the inland site better. It got the horses hooked up faster - no waiting for culture and fewer roads to build. Once it's going it'll be pretty much the same city up through size 4, so no big deal.

In a few turns I'll be forced to attack the worker to prevent Russia from getting Spearmen, which would completely own our projected War Chariots.
So, I'm switching research to Hunting, then Archery to get some decent units. Warriors are no use since Catherine built his city on hills and has probably 2 or more archers. Pottery is really no use in the near future, granaries take too long to buid considereing our cities are currenty limited to size 5 and 4 due to happiness. Plus, they grow fast enough on their own.

Danthor, I'm not sure I understand your reasoning. By the time we research archery (15t) the barracks in Memphis will be finished and the horses will be almost hooked up (16t.)

Is your fear the Catherine will send archers to attack our cities? Or that we won't be able to take her cities? I can see the first issue as being a problem, but not the 2nd. All we'd want to do with a war at this point is hurt her a bit by stealing the worker and stopping her from hooking up the copper. If we're afraid her counterattack may threaten us then we may not want to attack her right now. Spears are ugly, but we can manage 1 or 2 if we have to and cut the copper on the first turn of an offensive war.

 

[Danthor]

Danthor, I'm not sure I understand your reasoning. By the time we research archery (15t) the barracks in Memphis will be finished and the horses will be almost hooked up (16t.)

Is your fear the Catherine will send archers to attack our cities? Or that we won't be able to take her cities? I can see the first issue as being a problem, but not the 2nd. All we'd want to do with a war at this point is hurt her a bit by stealing the worker and stopping her from hooking up the copper. If we're afraid her counterattack may threaten us then we may not want to attack her right now. Spears are ugly, but we can manage 1 or 2 if we have to and cut the copper on the first turn of an offensive war.

It is just a backup, since she will send archers to protect the copper I'll have to spend the warriors on keeping her busy. And why do we want pottery right now anyways? I think it can wait.
For every archer she has in a city we'll need 2 or 3 warchariots to kill it, so we willl need a horde of them to get her city. If she has even a single spearman we'll need MUCH more: 4 +100% vs mounted +at least 20% cultural defense +25% hills bonus +probabably 10% first promotion = 10.2 vs our 5.5 war chariot.

 

[RobertTheBruce]

It is just a backup, since she will send archers to protect the copper I'll have to spend the warriors on keeping her busy. And why do we want pottery right now anyways? I think it can wait.
For every archer she has in a city we'll need 2 or 3 warchariots to kill it, so we willl need a horde of them to get her city. If she has even a single spearman we'll need MUCH more: 4 +100% vs mounted +at least 20% cultural defense +25% hills bonus +probabably 10% first promotion = 10.2 vs our 5.5 war chariot.

I don't see how the archers are a backup. Yes, the hill copper city is a setback and it is going to be a bloodbath taking it. Archers aren't going to change that fact. Thebes is too far away for Cat to send archers after us. All we can do is delay her by stealing the worker before the mine is built even if it costs 2 of our 3 warriors. The first chariots can take an archer at the mine and harrass until a full attack force is ready.

We can't wait for iron to attack Cat and we won't have any decent units other than chariots until we go on the offensive. We must prevent spears by stopping the mine construction and then taking the city. Going defensive with archers will just add more cultural defence to the city and limit us to 3 city sites.

 

[Lmtoops]

I've just opened the savegame and find that Russia is close (12 turns) to getting copper and we have 4 puny warriors, not even archers.

In a few turns I'll be forced to attack the worker to prevent Russia from getting Spearmen, which would completely own our projected War Chariots.
So, I'm switching research to Hunting, then Archery to get some decent units.
Warriors are no use since Catherine built his city on hills and has probably 2 or more archers. Pottery is really no use in the near future, granaries take too long to buid considereing our cities are currenty limited to size 5 and 4 due to happiness. Plus, they grow fast enough on their own.

*sigh*

In 12t? I think Catherine already knows about the copper. She switched to Slavery in Turn 42, which I thought goes with BW. I could be wrong.

I seriouly doubt that Russia will invade us. And as far as the visible copper, we will make quick work of it. My concern is if there is another copper source.

In any case, we will have WC before you know it, and we can handle any invasion force. It could make our conquest a little more difficult, but not too bad.

As far as the tech choice, I look at our funds and I see $0. In a few turns, our workers will have time for cottages, which will generate income. With income, we will be able to support 100% science, and a third city. Hunting is useless, obiously. Archery would be nice, but we will have to wait 15t. In that same time, we will have horses hooked up and build WC.

 

[Lmtoops]

Turn 55 2350
Memphis is founded and will build a barracks. Worker1 is moved N-N, then I realize this is a mistake since horses are not in my cultural border, yet.

I figure we now have space for an additional city, later on. Also I like to have an early coastal city in case we need a navy. My mistake was in not altering the build plan, I lost 1t of production.

I think either city site serves our immediate purpose.

 

[mushroomshirt]

Some random questions / thoughts:
* With 2 early luxury resources visible now (silver and gems) does that alter our calculus for building the pyramids?

* With copper near St. Pete's, should we make it a priority to deny Cat the copper and take that city with our war chariots?

* Danthor is pitching Archery as our next tech target. How do people feel about code of laws? If we found Confucianism that may alleviate some happiness problems, plus provide courthouses for expansion.

* If we are really interested in a wonder, how do we feel about Stonehenge instead of pyramids at this point? As Danthor pointed out some time ago we get great prophet points. The prophet could help us get to code of laws (happiness bonus equal to pyramids but in all cities w/ religion and temple). Or, if we already have that then we get a shrine?

 

[Danthor]

I just finished my turn, here is the log:

Turn 60 : 2200 BC
Danthor takes the power.
Warrior3 moves W.

Turn 61 : 2170
Thebes finished Worker 2, continues production of Warrior (2 more turns).
Worker 2 moves to stone and begins building Quarry.

Turn 62 : 2140
Worker1 finishes pasture on cow, then moves NE to horse and begins building a road.
Warrior 3 camps and begins sentry duties at hills on [-6,-5]. Site is acknowledged as a great surveillance spot for russian activities and named Western OutPost (WOP) by captain Kafele.

Turn 63 : 2110
Finished Warrior 5 at Thebes, it moves towards russian. Training on worker begins.

Turn 64 : 2080
The russian worker has moved to the copper. Warrior 3 captures him, worker moves towards thebes (SE, NE). Renamed him Ruski Worker.
WAR EXPLODES

Turn 65 : 2050
Warrior3 is killed by a russian archer, who has 1,6 HP left after the squirmish.
Worker1 is now building a pasture on the horses' plot.
Warrior4 (at Thebes) moves NE to intercept the russian scout.

Turn 66 : 2020
Warrior1 goes S to the Western OutPost. The russian archer is promoted to garrison I; meanwhile St. Peterburg has 2 more archers.

Ruski Worker moves to the forest NW of rice to build road. Worker Igor Ivanovich claims it to be "the prettiest forest with the greenest trees he has ever seen".
After a dumb move by the russian scout, Warrior4 kills him, ending up with 1,7 HP and 2 exp.
Warrior5 moves W.

Turn 67 : 1990
Warrior5 keeps going W and reches the Western Outpost, where Warrior1 fortifies its position.
Warrior4 promotes to Combat I, and heads back to Thebes.

Turn 68 : 1960
A rookie russian archer moves to the copper deposit, while Warrior5 is watching and fortifying.
Ruski Worker begins working on a road.

Turn 69 : 1930
Huayna Capac adopts Slavery
The russian archer attacks the Western Outpost and Warrior1 successfully repels the atack. With 0,6 HP left, promotes to cover (+25% vs archery), ends up with 1,3 HP and will heal in 4 turns.
Warrior4 is in Thebes; will heal in 1 turn.

Turn 70 : 1900
Pottery is researched. Studies on Hunting begin, estimated to be concluded in 8 turns.
Warrior4 heads for the Western Outpost.
Worker 2 finishes the quarry and moves N.
Ruski Worker completes a road. Road work continues NW.

Turn 71 : 1870
hunting will be ready in 6
tebes finishes worker 3, begins pyramids (ready in 34)
worker 1 finishes horse pasture, moves SW to build connecting road, will be ready in 3 at same time as Menfis finishes barracks and grows to pop 3.
worker 3 move NE starts irrigation
Catherine sends an unpromoted archer to the copper, warrior 1 at 1,7 str

Turn 72 : 1840
archer move NE.
warrior 4 moves W

Turn 73 : 1810
citizens in tebes protest against lack of military protection
warrior1 heals and fortify
warrior4 moves back E

Turn 74 : 1780
warrior4 moves NE
ruski worker build road
worker 1 finishes road and 1 moves to [-1,1] to build road that will connect Tebes and Menfis.
worker 2 finishes road, begins mine
Menphis grows to 3 and finishes barracs, starts war chariot (ready in 4)

Turn 75 : 1750
warrior4 fortifies at GreenLeaf Forest (GLF) [-2,-3]
russian archer approaches Egyptian borders

Turn 76 : 1720
ruski worker moves SW begins road
russian archer moves NE, to S of GLF

Turn 77 : 1690
Battle of GreenLeaf, Warrior4 defeats invading archer! 0,4 str, 3 exp
researched hunting, begin misticism

Turn 78 : 1660
Travelers report that a new religion called Judaism is founded in a far away land.
People rejoice for arrival of horses in Thebes.
Merchants applaud road connection between Thebes and Memphis.
worker1 finishes road and moves SW to help with mine
Menfis finishes Warchariot 1
Cathrine sends yet another archer to desert W of copper
warchariot 1 innaugurates road and moves NW of GLF
currently: hinduism 2350, budism 3130, judaism 1660

Turn 79 : 1630
worker1&2 moves to S of Tebes to begin mine
warchariot 1 promotes combat I and moves to N of WOP, ruski worker moves to

same location to begin road
archer moves NE to NW of WOP

Turn 80 : 1600
Battle of the Outpost, archer attacks Warrior1 and is defeated! w1 left with 0,4 str, 7 exp.
worker 1 & 2 begin mine
ruski worker begin road

Danthor's reign comes to an end as he dies from a stroke while doing Hatshepsut

----

Uploaded the save file

Turn Order:
Grogs
Mushroomshirt
Lmtoops
Danthor - Just Played
RobertTheBruce - Up
llib_rm - On Deck
VirusMonster
Ungy

 

[RobertTheBruce]

Some random questions / thoughts:
* With 2 early luxury resources visible now (silver and gems) does that alter our calculus for building the pyramids?

* With copper near St. Pete's, should we make it a priority to deny Cat the copper and take that city with our war chariots?

* Danthor is pitching Archery as our next tech target. How do people feel about code of laws? If we found Confucianism that may alleviate some happiness problems, plus provide courthouses for expansion.

* If we are really interested in a wonder, how do we feel about Stonehenge instead of pyramids at this point? As Danthor pointed out some time ago we get great prophet points. The prophet could help us get to code of laws (happiness bonus equal to pyramids but in all cities w/ religion and temple). Or, if we already have that then we get a shrine?

I would propose making capturing St. Pete's a priority. I don't think we can wait for iron to attack Cat and spears are going to make our life miserable if we wait too long. Hopefully, cat doesn't have access to a second copper source and we can deny her by stealing the worker currently at the cows when it moves to start making the copper mine. At the very least, the AI doesn't move workers to the edge of its territory during war. We can also deny Cat access to horses which are near St. Pete's at the same time.
I would suggest heading to either Code of Laws for a religion or Alphabet. Hopefuly, we can sue for some techs when the chariots are rolling.
I think this is our war mongering choice here. If we don't switch Thebes to barracks after the worker and hook up the horses to both cities we can't really attack Cat.

The silver is in a bad spot, I don't think we can put a city near it soon. Either take St. Pete's for copper and gems or go for a religion and start thinking diplomacy.

 

[RobertTheBruce]

Well, ignore that last post. I have the new save. I will continue with the Pyramids and use Memphis to build a group of chariots to assault St. Pete's. That will take the builds to the end of my turns.

War Chariot #1 will sneak by St. Pete's ( the AI usually won't attack with the 2 archers set to defence in each city) to scout a bit of the Russian empire. I think Lmtoops has a valid point. If the Russians have another copper source we need to know soon. If Russia only has archers the chariot should be able to scout and pillage a bit. (Assuming only Moscow is going to have more than 2 units at this point.)

I think I will switch to Writing after Mysticism. Libraries eventually and open boarders now (List of cities during fake peace negotiations). There is no point prioritizing Meditation or Polytheism since the 3 early religions have been founded and we don't have marble for the oracle. After writing do people wish Alphabet (pointy stick research) or Med/Poly for Priesthood and CoL, IW for a stab at melee units without copper, any other tricks to get out of our little corner of the continent?

I won't be able to play until tomorrow morning so suggestions are welcome.

 

[mushroomshirt]

Now that I know how to upload files, maybe Grogs is sorry that he taught me (now maybe he can give me some advice on keeping them from coming up so big! - got it! Thanks!):

Hopefully this helps with the discussion.

A random thought about this save - how do we feel about temporarily interrupting the pyramid build to pop out another settler? There are a couple spots near the cows NE of St. Pete's that could spit out more war chariots?

[Edited - thanks to Grogs we have reasonable size pics! ]

 

[Grogs]

Nice job Danthor. Sounds like some pretty good tactical decision making. We managed to defeat 2 of Catherine's archers using only warriors and captured one of her workers. And nice job building that road. We've got a highway to speed chariots to the front now. And we'll be able to hook St. Pete up right after we capture it.

Tactically, I agree with RTB's plan to use the first couple of war chariots for scouting. Also, if those horses are hooked up, we'd like to take them out, plus any other copper or mined plains/grassland(iron) we might see. Also, if we can find a good spot to stop reinforcements from Moscow from reaching St. Pete, that would be great. My biggest fear at this point is war weariness. We really can't handle any, so if it gets bad before we can muster sufficient force, we may have to sign a 10 turn peace treaty. If we have to do that, we need to do as much pillaging as possible beforehand to make sure she can't muster a stronger defense when we go in again. It also might not be a bad idea to get a unit completely through Russian territory and see if we can make contact with the rest of the continent.

Tech-wise, we're going to need IW to clear the jungle on the gems. I might recommend we grab fishing first though. It's a quick tech (6 turns) and it would let us work the fish if we need to, or probably more importantly, send a work boat around to check behind those mountains. I don't really see grabbing a religion as realistic. I think our best bet will be to steal one.

Some other things I see:

- Memphis will be unhappy when it grows. We need to pull our fogbuster and put him down there by the time it grows. We can pull the wounded warrior south of Thebes to take his place, but the fogbuster is the only one that can reach Memphis in 2 turns.

- Watch the tile that Thebes picks up when it grows. We'll finish the pyramids fastest if we pick up the grass/hill/mine at 4 (rather than growing to 5 rapidly.)

- We'll have some downtime for our workers soon, so we may want to consider building some cottages. We'll need them soon if we're going to try and keep up on research.

Now that I know how to upload files, maybe Grogs is sorry that he taught me (now maybe he can give me some advice on keeping them from coming up so big!):

You just have to resize them before you post them (MS paint works, it's just a bit clunky.) I always resize mine to 800x600.

 

[Danthor]

Thank you!
Sorry I posted such a messy log. I had to leave in a hurry for a job. I took some screenshots and I'll post them asap.

Also, I got a few things to notice:
- due to hapiness the warrior2 has to go back to Menfis but he can be soon replaced in his current task by one of the other warriors after we get the second chariot. We haev to watch for Tebes not growing beyond size 5 for now as well.
- I had started to build the highway south of the 2 mountains, but then I realized it would be a faster path for the units from Menfis going across the northern path, sorry. Luckily, building the road on GLF helped keep a border defense post, which proved useful in the Battle of GreenLeaf
- We might have to consider chopping 1 or 2 forests to speed up the Piramids, so Tebes can build a settler and/or more chariots.
- I didn't bother to hook up the rice yet because we don't need health (yet).
- Warchariot 1 still has a full move to make in turn 80. I thought I'd better leave that for the next player since it might fit better to his turn gameplan.
- I wasn't quite sure what research plan we were going to follow (I like the suggestion of going for Code of Laws) so I focused on getting the more basic techs (since they are quite cheap now) so they don't slow down the more advanced ones onvce we go for a straight line. Only Fishing is missing after Mistiscism.

 

[Lmtoops]

Good 20 turns. You did a great job of denying the copper, winning battles, and still build the Pyramids. The war road is going to save a lot of turns.

I would rather chop a forest or two rather than interrupt the Pyramid build. The workers can do the chops and then build a couple of floodplain cottages.

Memphis can keep pumping out WC.

That's a good idea to use WC as scouts. If there are only warriors and archers, they should be fine. If there are spearmen and axmen, well at least we know.

What should Thebes do after the Pyramids? I say a settler or perhaps a defensive unit...just in case.

 

[Grogs]

That's a good idea to use WC as scouts. If there are only warriors and archers, they should be fine. If there are spearmen and axmen, well at least we know.

Yeah, really. We'd actually *like* it if she sends out archers to attack us. If she does have a spear or two and we get a 5xp WC, we probably want to give it combat1+shock. The WC is still at a disadvantage, but it's a much closer fight. If it's just archers, the flanking promotions are probably better. We'll probably be pretty bad underdogs, so if our defeated units can withdraw instead of being destroyed it would help a lot. One nice thing about the WC's is they're immune to first strikes, which helps a bit when dealing with archers.

What should Thebes do after the Pyramids? I say a settler or perhaps a defensive unit...just in case.

Yeah, I'd say we need a settler. We've got 3 places I see that would make a decent city site:

1. 6 tiles W of Thebes (2 W of the cow); It's on the coast, next to a river, has a cow, 2 irrigable grassland tiles, and 3 plains/hills.
2. 4E, 1S of Thebes; this is the GP site I talked about earlier. It has 7 FP (2 shared w/ Thebes), fish, clams, and 2 hills and a forest for some hammers.
3. 4E of Memphis - this is what I was looking for for Memphis, but no reason we can't build there now. 4FP's and 4 plains/hills means this city would be a production *giant* down the road. It would also share the plains/cow and horses with Memphis. That's a good thing actually - it means we could swap those tiles between cities depending on which needed them more.

After the settler, we probably want to build a barracks and help Memphis out with WC's. Assuming, that is, the war's not over by then.

Also, at some point in the not-too distant future, we'll probably have to claim the silver, bad city or no. If we have sailing first, we can at least build a lighthouse and work water tiles. That will help the city pay for itself, but it will never be much good. If we get a chance, we may want to run a warrior up to the silver. If there's a sea resource up there, it may be slightly better. One of the biggest challenges in higher level games is keeping the citizens happy/healthy and growing our cities. The pyramids will certainly help, but we'll outgrow that extra +2 happiness in no time.

EDIT: I looked at the combat odds for attacking St. Pete. For a Combat I WC, it's 5.5 to 7.95. That's bad, but not as bad as I was expecting. If we can keep her from reinforcing the city, 5-6 chariots should be able to take it.

EDIT2: Here's a dotmap to make what I was describing clearer:

Yellow - current (Memphis+Thebes) fat crosses
Orange - Russia
Green - City #1 above
Red - City #2 above
Blue - City #3 above
Purple - Ice/Silver City
Pink - Sugar City. The dot's in the right place, but I messed up the cross and was to lazy to redo it.

 

[mushroomshirt]

What should Thebes do after the Pyramids? I say a settler or perhaps a defensive unit...just in case.

Yeah, I'd say we need a settler. We've got 3 places I see that would make a decent city site:

1. 6 tiles W of Thebes (2 W of the cow); It's on the coast, next to a river, has a cow, 2 irrigable grassland tiles, and 3 plains/hills.
2. 4E, 1S of Thebes; this is the GP site I talked about earlier. It has 6 FP (2 shared w/ Thebes), fish, clams, and 2 hills and a forest for some hammers.
3. 4E of Memphis - this is what I was looking for for Memphis, but no reason we can't build there now. 4FP's and 4 plains/hills means this city would be a production *giant* down the road. It would also share the plains/cow and horses with Memphis. That's a good thing actually - it means we could swap those tiles between cities depending on which needed them more.

I like all these city spots but I vote for the 1st one (close to Cat) for our settler build after the pyramids. Danthor's already got the road right near there so it can be immediately hooked up to copper (if we have St. Pete's by then) and horses. It can help us churn out military units and it's proximity to Russia will help too.

I also like Lmtoops suggestion of chopping for the pyramids rather than interrupting the build. In fact I wonder what people think about also chopping a few war chariots. Since we are a little production limited in the war effort, a few extra war chariots could help us out in the early going here. Just a thought for discussion, not sure if it is actually a good idea...

 

[Danthor]

I vote for city spot #1 too, since it has more strategic value (#2 and #3 should be left for after the war with Catherine).

I'd build #1 5 tiles W from Thebes though (between cows and river):
it would have access to:
* 6 coast, 1 ocean, 1 grass+cow, 2 plain/hills, 2 plains, 3 grass, 2 grass/forest and 3 unusable mountains.
vs:
* 7 coast, 3 ocean, 1 grass+cow, 3 plain/hills, 0 plains, 3 grass, 1 grass/forest and 2 unusable mountains.
The difference is 2 plains, 1 grass/forest and 1 unusable mountain for 1 coast, 2 ocean and 1 plain/hills.

And #3 I think would be better 5 tiles E of Memphis instead of 4.

edit: Memphis is building (with 3 pop) chariots every 4 turns. The 4th population will get 4 extra hammers from the mined plain/hills. Spending a forest for 1-2 quicker turns is not really efficient.
btw, RobertTheBruce remember to micromanage Memphis after it pops to 4. It does not need to grow beyond 4 for a while since we can't sustain the (un)happiness.

 

[mushroomshirt]

btw, RobertTheBruce remember to micromanage Memphis after it pops to 4. It does not need to grow beyond 4 for a while since we can't sustain the (un)happiness.

How do we feel about the use of the "avoid growth" button on the city management menu?