SGOTM 01 - Short Straw

[ungy]

nice going RTB--not every set can be earthshaking.

I would make a pitch for a city above the mountain SE of Thebes--it will be a good investment for the future and might help a self vote diplo to have the pop. It can also use the clams if Elephantine doen't need the food to give it a growth boost for a while.

Not sure how many caravels make sense--obviously build a few ASAP, but should build an explorer or two to send along.

Some MM issues-- I'm generally not a big fan of keeping a cash reserve--I would spend down to zero to speed tech. I like working Merchants in Memphis as most cities will have a multiplier on science more than money so makes sense to work merchants over scientists in any city w/o library.
I would cottage the farmed FPs near Elephant--don't need the food that bad.

I guess Gandhi got Cyrus's crab--unlikely to have another chance at it but something to keep an eye on.

Based on the scores and the tech history, it seems almost certain that Gandhi will be #2 in pop and I think we need most of the rest of the world to look yellow.

I assume we go astro after optics--probably makes sense to trade it to Gandhi and we should get some good stuff. We also may have other contacts soon for filling in some of the missing techs so I would definately recommend against a detour to Drama or Music.

 

[ungy]

I will be out of action until next Wednesday--we seem to be moving along quickly and I think Grogs should take my next turn if we keep it up and maybe I can come in after him. Also Grogs it'll be up to you to keep repeating the "cottages, cottages, cottages" mantra --ungy

 

[Danthor]

Edit: I suppose the best choice is to switch from a farm to a specialist to delay the growth but the question still remains. Its another problem of the whipping crutch, I forget about the unlimited specialists for caste system. Avoiding whipping, does it ever make sense to grow to an unhappy size or does micromanagement always suggest avoid growth?

Growing to an unhappy size only makes sense if you're going to get +1 happy very soon, otherwise get more specialists and avoid growth.
To experiment, try using the auto-citizen with the avoid growth and the focus on science or commerce, to see how the AI reassigns the little buggers.

 

[Danthor]

I would make a pitch for a city above the mountain SE of Thebes--it will be a good investment for the future and might help a self vote diplo to have the pop. It can also use the clams if Elephantine doen't need the food to give it a growth boost for a while.

I'm not too keen on this idea, having cities just t fill the gap is not very efficient.

Not sure how many caravels make sense--obviously build a few ASAP, but should build an explorer or two to send along.

I'd say 4: 1 to go east, 1 west and 2 to keep around.

Some MM issues-- I'm generally not a big fan of keeping a cash reserve--I would spend down to zero to speed tech.

Unless we keep our military up-to-date it is wise to have 300g-400g to make an emergency upgrade if we get sneak attacked.

I like working Merchants in Memphis as most cities will have a multiplier on science more than money so makes sense to work merchants over scientists in any city w/o library.

I'm agree.

I assume we go astro after optics--probably makes sense to trade it to Gandhi and we should get some good stuff. We also may have other contacts soon for filling in some of the missing techs so I would definately recommend against a detour to Drama or Music.

Astronomy is VERY powerful. I say don't trade it until we can trade it to several civs at once to maximize techs learned.

 

[Grogs]

Good job RobertTheBruce. You and Danthor got mostly quiet turnsets, but they were also important ones. Without a financial base our dreams of off-continent domination would die quickly as we went broke and our troops went on strike.

Turn 4 860AD Silver discovered near Thebes

That's really cool. Silver seems to be about the rarest resource, so having another was nice. It gave us a nice bit of bonus commerce in Thebes as well.

Edit: I suppose the best choice is to switch from a farm to a specialist to delay the growth but the question still remains. Its another problem of the whipping crutch, I forget about the unlimited specialists for caste system. Avoiding whipping, does it ever make sense to grow to an unhappy size or does micromanagement always suggest avoid growth?

Like Danthor said, I'll usually MM for slow/no growth if I'm expecting some happiness issues in the near future. In Elephantine, I would avoid much whipping regardless of the civic. For now, I'd swap pull up two more specialists and MM it for zero growth until the temple is complete. We'll want an aqueduct there soon, but we may want to consider a market there next. That way it will be able to run 5+ specialists even when we swap out of Caste System.

I will be out of action until next Wednesday--we seem to be moving along quickly and I think Grogs should take my next turn if we keep it up and maybe I can come in after him. Also Grogs it'll be up to you to keep repeating the "cottages, cottages, cottages" mantra --ungy

I'll do my best, though if we have a couple more sets like RTB's, there may be no more cottagable tiles left on our continent.


It looks like we're getting ready to come up on the next phase of the game. Optics will be coming up in one turn and we'll be able to explore the rest of the world. I blame myself for not realizing we should have a couple of explorers ready, but I didn't realize quite how fast we were coming up on Optics. Ideally, I like to put explorers in the galleys. There's nothing I hate more than sailing past an island with a goody hut when I don't have a unit on board.

Obviously, getting a couple of caravels out should be the top priority as soon as Optics comes in. We want to meet the other 2 civs and also scout them out. Astronomy is just around the corner as well, so it's probably time to start planning for that phase. We're at war with HC, so the smartest move, to me anyway, is to go get him as quickly as possible. It's just a matter of time until he gets Astronomy, possibly before us, so better to invade him before he invades us. The good news is that looking at the power graph, we've about 30% higher than HC right now.

So, I know we have very little intel right now on HC or the other 2 AI's, but does anyone have any ideas/suggestions for the following items:

1. When should we start building our invasion force?
   
2. Typical size and composition of an invasion force. I'm thinking something like 8 galleons of troops: 8 maces, 10 catapults, 2 crossbows, and 4 workers. Intel from our galleons will obviously
   
3. Best way to go about putting that force together, i.e., upgrade, build from scratch, pop-rush, etc.
   
4. How are we going to pay for this force?
   
5. A good homeland defense plan. It would be silly if we landed a huge army beside HC and then lost half of our cities to *his* invasion force.
   
6. What should our tech path be after Astronomy? Hopefully we'll be able to get some trades in and that may sway our decision, but I see two main 'routes' right now that could be quite beneficial: HBR->Guilds->Banking or Paper->Printing Press<->Education.

 

[ungy]

Caravels- I think a priority to get caravel 1 going e and #2 going w as fast as possible--we have a good chance to get first circumnavigation which I think is important here. Build a couple more for more detailed scouting but we will really be glad if we can get the bonus

 

[ungy]

Astronomy is VERY powerful. I say don't trade it until we can trade it to several civs at once to maximize techs learned.

I suspect that we will basically be tech trading with Gandhi as the rest of the world outside of HCappears to be backward. I agree with the concept, but we might get all the missing techs from Gandhi for it and he is advanced enough not to need to trade it around. The only danger is that he trades to HC--would only trade it if that looked unlikely

 

[ungy]

As for next war--HC seems like an obvious target--problem is he might be a little tough. Depending on layout might make sense to get OB with a neighbor of his and ferry troops there. I think difficult decision on whether to build a large army of macemen or wait for better units. One possibility if there is a backwards civ nearby build the mace and take it out, getting them promoted. Then upgrade to rifle and take out HC. I generally like rifle better than gren as the ai tends to build lots of mounted units and that bonus sure is nice. HC seems likely to have knights when we get to him.

It's possible we can conquer the world with that level units--just upgrade and keep building and not worry about the more advanced techs. We seem pretty much ahead of all but Gandhi and I think only HC puts up much fight. If we have rifle vs longbow the ai pretty much helpless and we don't take too many losses.

Our current decision which we have to make before we really know the layout, is whether to resume building military. My guess is that we probably should given the game victory conditions. Also our economy has improved dramatically over the last few sets of turns. Is a tough call since I find upgrades are expensive and in normal games generally only promote elite units unless in trouble.

 

[ungy]

We want to meet the other 2 civs and also scout them out. Astronomy is just around the corner as well, so it's probably time to start planning for that phase. We're at war with HC, so the smartest move, to me anyway, is to go get him as quickly as possible. It's just a matter of time until he gets Astronomy, possibly before us, so better to invade him before he invades us. The good news is that looking at the power graph, we've about 30% higher than HC right now.


[[/LIST]

One fairly obvious thought comes to mind--keep checking his tech to see when he gets astro--he often seems to go the banking route. Once that happens I like building a gold reserve for emergency upgrades.

 

[ungy]

Another war strategy thought I had is to land a harassing force and camp in good defensive terrain and try to lure out his mobile response force--keep him occupied and then he won't have reserves when our main force lands.
Oftentimes is seems the ai makes dumb attacks that deplete its offensive units and then it's a cakewalk. So landing a couple of pike and several mace--maybe 8 units (with healer of course), if we can find a +75%defense square , or +50 at least and try and bleed him dry with battles we are almost sure to win (and pick up the promos). No pillaging--sole purpose is bait for hopeless attacks (maybe one WC to pick up withdrawn units)

 

[ungy]

That also reduces the need for a large navy as we go over in at least two shifts--and presumably a smaller invasion force as there should be less opposition

 

[ungy]

A good homeland defense plan. It would be silly if we landed a huge army beside HC and then lost half of our cities to *his* invasion force.

I don't think that rates to be a problem. the AI is generally bad at invasions. We are also going to build units at a decent enough clip that there will be a few extra waiting for transport in case we get surprised.

Is also another reason to try and engage him on his turf with the harassing force--no way he sends an invasion force if we're on his turf.

 

[ungy]

tech wise I think one thing we need pretty soon is engineering. I think we likely to face knights so getting pike is huge. Road bonus big as well.

 

[Lmtoops]

I think we should risk building our invasion force, now. We can start slow, but let's begin. Optimal would be that as soon as we spot and scout our next victim, we can launch the invasion. I would not wait for better units.

I like Ungy's idea of landing a defensive decoy force. I have seen the AI do exactly what he is talking about. It works best if the force looks weak. Such as have a 2 longbowman or a forested hill.

 

[Grogs]

OK, which of ungy's 8 replies to respond to first...

Caravels- I think a priority to get caravel 1 going e and #2 going w as fast as possible--we have a good chance to get first circumnavigation which I think is important here. Build a couple more for more detailed scouting but we will really be glad if we can get the bonus

That probably needs to be a drop everything and build them as soon as we get Optics thing. Thebes can build 2 explorers, while Memphis builds 2 caravels and Helio builds 1. Even though HC and Ghandi both have Optics, it's probably pretty easy to get the Circumnavigation bonus since AI's rarely make it a priority.

I suspect that we will basically be tech trading with Gandhi as the rest of the world outside of HCappears to be backward. I agree with the concept, but we might get all the missing techs from Gandhi for it and he is advanced enough not to need to trade it around. The only danger is that he trades to HC--would only trade it if that looked unlikely

The good news is that Ghandi has every tech HC has, so if that keeps up, no trades. We should probably meet the other 2 civs and see what resources they have to trade before we swap with Ghandi though. We'd like to get the first crack at them.

As for next war--HC seems like an obvious target--problem is he might be a little tough. Depending on layout might make sense to get OB with a neighbor of his and ferry troops there. I think difficult decision on whether to build a large army of macemen or wait for better units. One possibility if there is a backwards civ nearby build the mace and take it out, getting them promoted. Then upgrade to rifle and take out HC. I generally like rifle better than gren as the ai tends to build lots of mounted units and that bonus sure is nice. HC seems likely to have knights when we get to him.

I don't think waiting on HC is a good idea right now. Since we're not landing troops on his continent, he can start landing them on *ours.* We're also weakening ourselves against this backward civ while all of his troops are going for us. And finally, he's actually a generation behind with his defenders - no longbows yet. If we go quickly, we may catch him before he has a chance to upgrade many of his archers to LB's. My feelings on grenadiers vs. rifles are exactly opposite yours, and the reason is you can still build macemen with chemistry, but once you research rifling, that option is gone. I like to build a maceman, promote him to city raider 2, then upgrade him to a grenadier.

I need a little more info on AW from someone who knows (Danthor?) Do we ever get WW from the civ we're permanently at war with? If not, Ungy's suggestion makes sense. If we could land a force of say 3 cross-bows and 3 maces on a hill/forest they should be able to hold out against a *lot* of troops.

As for preparing the invasion force, I think there's a smart way and a dumb way to do it. I'm haven't quite figured out the 'smart' way. I'm thinking it might go something like this...

• Spend the next 10 turns or so finishing up needed buildings, spreading religion to the rest of our cities, etc. Chopping those last 2 forests around Moscow to speed up the Forbidden Palace during this time - we'll need it before too long. I picked 10 turns because it's the number of turns until we get our next GP, assuming we bump it up to 5 specialists.
• At the end of 10, we switch civics to slavery and theocracy. We can rush any final building we really need to get done in important cities, but we don't have to go all out at this point. Maybe 4-5 cities start building military. Once we get Astronomy in, our best few coastal cities (maybe Memphis, Helio, and St. Pete) can start building galleons. We can probably have a small force (3 galleons full or so) ready 10 turns after Astronomy finishes.
• As more cities become available (finish that market, build barracks, etc.) *AND* we've determined the location of HC, we ramp up military production to 'all-out' mode and finish the main assault force. I'd say the distance to HC will in large part determine how many galleons we need. If he's 12 turns away, we'll need more galleons than if he's 4 turns away.

We've got a pretty good industrial base in our little empire. In fact, we have nearly double the production of any other known civ. (F9-Graphs-Mfg. Goods) You can see that looking at our cities. We have 8 cities (9 once the mine by Novgood finishes) capable of producing a maceman in 10 turns or less, though some lack barracks. So we can really build our entire invasion force (less galleons) from scratch in 20 turns. Between Memphis, St. Pete, and Heliopolis we can finish 8 galleons in 16 turns, so we can probably assemble our entire force and have them ready to sail in 35 turns or so. If we're going piecemeal, we can obviously have them ready much faster.

One thing I do find curious is that we're 2nd in the power graph, but 3rd in number of soldiers. This makes me think one of the unknown civs may have a fairly formidable army.

Another (random) thing: If we raise Elephantine to 5 specialists, should we add 2 more scientists or add some merchants? Great Scientist can build an Academy or research paper. Great merchant will research paper as well, or we can send him on a trade mission to Delhi, which would probably net 1200-1500g since it's such a great city. That would be enough to upgrade a good piece of our invasion force or jack the science slider up and research some necessary techs. We could get an artist too. I hate that aspect of the National Epic. If so, we could either save him for a Golden Age, or use him to culture bomb a captured city.

 

[Lmtoops]

Turn 4 860AD Silver discovered near Thebes

I have a quick question. When a resource appears during the game, is this a random event or is coded into the map?

I was just wondering if the outher teams have had the same resources appear.

 

[Grogs]

I have a quick question. When a resource appears during the game, is this a random event or is coded into the map?

I was just wondering if the outher teams have had the same resources appear.

Well it *is* a random occurrance - I know of no way to set up a map so that resource X will appear on Tile Y on turn Z. There's like a 1/5000 chance per tile per turn of a resource appearing. But, and this goes to the 2nd part of your question, there is a random seed that gets saved with the save file. I had a game where gold popped up on a hill by my capital 5 turns into the game. I reloaded the 4000 BC file, and 5 turns later, gold popped on the same tile again. So it's entirely possible that the other teams are getting the same resources we are.

On a different note, if you guys want to see something really interesting, take a look at the SGOTM Progress and Results page (the one where you download the saves) and change the graph from 'score' to 'power.' You'll see a very sharp rise in power in the 2 teams that are way ahead of everybody that, I'd be willing to bet, roughly corresponds to discovering Astronomy.

 

[Lmtoops]

Thanks for the answer. So every team is extremely lucky.

It would be a good idea to send a caravel East, around those suspicious mountains. I still think we may find the other civs near that location. Hopefully, we can catch HC with only archers and spearmen.

 

[RobertTheBruce]

Well it *is* a random occurrance - I know of no way to set up a map so that resource X will appear on Tile Y on turn Z. There's like a 1/5000 chance per tile per turn of a resource appearing. But, and this goes to the 2nd part of your question, there is a random seed that gets saved with the save file. I had a game where gold popped up on a hill by my capital 5 turns into the game. I reloaded the 4000 BC file, and 5 turns later, gold popped on the same tile again. So it's entirely possible that the other teams are getting the same resources we are.

This late in the game this won't be likely. The seeds started identically but the number of battles (usually about 10 numbers from the list per battle), barbs appearing and wandering, etc will have spread the seeds for the different teams. That low number in the rng's list may be used during a battle or pop a resource in an AI controlled mine for other teams. I guess it is an event to troll other teams logs for resource appearance. With the copper this is our second which is pretty unusual for a game.

I would research astro after optics and find the other two civs. Hopefully we can trade with them for HR, Drama, Music, and Theocracy. Hopefully, we can trade Astro to Ghandi for a couple of his better techs after this (Feudalism and Guilds would be nice to have (I love Knights)). Switch to war production and have the first war with Maces and a lot of suicide cats.

I prefer the mace to CR Grenadier route to finish at least the two backward civs and Cyrus. I think we are going to be voting against Ghandi for diplomatic so after trading Astronomy I would vote for an invasion of Persia.

The other route that hasn't been mentioned is cavalry. It will be a long time til anyone other than Ghandi gets rifles so waves of cavalry could probably sweep over everything, cultural defences included.

 

[llib_rm]

• 
  [1]When should we start building our invasion force?
  
  [2]Typical size and composition of an invasion force. I'm thinking something like 8 galleons of troops: 8 maces, 10 catapults, 2 crossbows, and 4 workers. Intel from our galleons will obviously
  
  [3]Best way to go about putting that force together, i.e., upgrade, build from scratch, pop-rush, etc.
  
  [4]How are we going to pay for this force?
  
  [5]A good homeland defense plan. It would be silly if we landed a huge army beside HC and then lost half of our cities to *his* invasion force.
  
  [6]What should our tech path be after Astronomy? Hopefully we'll be able to get some trades in and that may sway our decision, but I see two main 'routes' right now that could be quite beneficial: HBR->Guilds->Banking or Paper->Printing Press<->Education.
  

1 I think we should take advantange of near term peace to get our infrastructure in order and prepare a navy.

2 A good balance of defensive troops like Crossbows & Pikes with double the amount of Macemen and Cats. We will need to defend our position while the cats take down the city defenses.

3 Build Navy first with infrastructure for non-coastal cities, then an all out troops build

4 See #1

5 I like to keep mobile units at home. With Engineering, they can cover a lot of ground quickly. Additionally, a good home defense is to sink their ships before they land.

6 For warmongerring, we should consider a beeline to Chemistry to get Frigates. Containing HC with a strong Navy before he can react would be my recommendation.