I totally disagree with you guys on the cats. The harder the defender, the more important they become. A knight costs twice what a cat does, and a grenadier costs 2.5 times as much. And the cats will cause considerable damage attacking the enemy city, not necessarily to the primary defender, but quite a bit to the others. I'd much rather lose 2 cats, fresh out of the assembly line, than my CR3 mace, who only has a 54% chance of winning. If the city only has 2-3 defenders, sure the suicide cats aren't as useful, but outside of pathetic tundra and desert cities, I suspect we'll see more than that in most cities.
SGOTM 01 - Short Straw
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Lmtoops
Warlord
Wow, alot is going on since I was out of town.
PA is definitely beyond our reach if we want to win. I think we should get chemistry for later on.
Well, I think ya'll are doing a great job of planning...so will go with whatever you recommend.
We need to start taking some risks. Well calculated, but risky manuever and attacks. I think we can beat the 1610 date, but it will be tough.
PA is definitely beyond our reach if we want to win. I think we should get chemistry for later on.
Well, I think ya'll are doing a great job of planning...so will go with whatever you recommend.
We need to start taking some risks. Well calculated, but risky manuever and attacks. I think we can beat the 1610 date, but it will be tough.
RobertTheBruce
King
Grogs said:
There will probably be a lot a cities with 2-3 long bows/crossbows/maces + spears and cats. This seems to be a favorite for the AI outside the 3 best cities. The collateral damage to the spears and cats isn't that helpful and knights might be a solution that saves a few cats for the big fights. I have no problem with a wave of cats but this probably won't give us a fast finish. Our assembly line is pretty far from the front lines and our attack may slow waiting for cats.
Against longbows, the math for knights with flanking II isn't that bad weighting the hammers for cats. 30% withdrawl vs 10% + ~20% chance to win. The cats are certainly more hammer efficient when there are multiple good units for collateral damage but for outlying cities with a couple of longbows we might want to risk some knights and try to get lucky and reduce the demands on our supply chain. Even with a steady stream of cats coming from the homeland we may save a few turns on the last battles if we get lucky and save some cats on marginal cities.
I'm mainly thinking of the power I and II, flanking II chariots which could be upgraded after we take the first couple of cities. We are going to need every hammer of production we have for maces/grenadiers and cats if we are racing for 1610. This is just my 2 cents and I certainly agree the cats and maces should be the 1,2 punches of our SOD.
On a different but somewhat related topic. Vassalage may help the cat problem. Since we don't care about score/final population, agressively whipping large captured cities (CH + replacement cats) might help with production for the final push. They won't have barracks and Theocracy will be useless but Vassalage will allow large cities to whip barrage cats to replace the ones used to capture the city. Nothing says enlightened civilization quite like police state + vassalage + slavery + theocracy.
Welcome back Lmtoops.
No kidding, huh?
I agree, knights are great for capturing small, weakly defended cities (that don't have pikes.) They can also be used to support the main attacks on the big cities. Since we'll have to have so much mobility, replacing the cats won't be as big of an issue as in a normal game though. Once we get rolling, there will be countless galleons on the ocean at any given time ferrying troops around, so unless we going after cities deep inland, resupplying our SOD's with slow units is much more possible than in, say, a pangea game.
Whipping out a CH / barracks / troops in newly captured cities is probably the way to go to really speed up our war efforts. Also, most of the really fast dominations I've read about in the GOTM's seem to include a small army of workers to help chop those building out if trees are available and build roads for the conquering armies to follow.
Speaking of numerous units moving all over the place, there's probably going to be lots and lots of fighting in everyone's next turnset. What do you guys think of doing 10 each for the next one? We're at turn 263 right now (which is weird since it's not a multiple of 5) so we'll be at 278 after ungy finishes. 1610 AD is turn 340, so if we manage that we won't get a full rotation even at 10 each.
RobertTheBruce said:
No kidding, huh?I agree, knights are great for capturing small, weakly defended cities (that don't have pikes.) They can also be used to support the main attacks on the big cities. Since we'll have to have so much mobility, replacing the cats won't be as big of an issue as in a normal game though. Once we get rolling, there will be countless galleons on the ocean at any given time ferrying troops around, so unless we going after cities deep inland, resupplying our SOD's with slow units is much more possible than in, say, a pangea game.
Whipping out a CH / barracks / troops in newly captured cities is probably the way to go to really speed up our war efforts. Also, most of the really fast dominations I've read about in the GOTM's seem to include a small army of workers to help chop those building out if trees are available and build roads for the conquering armies to follow.
Speaking of numerous units moving all over the place, there's probably going to be lots and lots of fighting in everyone's next turnset. What do you guys think of doing 10 each for the next one? We're at turn 263 right now (which is weird since it's not a multiple of 5) so we'll be at 278 after ungy finishes. 1610 AD is turn 340, so if we manage that we won't get a full rotation even at 10 each.
mushroomshirt
King
ungy said:
I think we might need to come to terms with some losses taking out HC and hope that we can produce units fast enough to make up for them. Quantity may be better than quality in this case. Police state can help. If we wait until chemistry for HC, I'm afraid we will be too slow. If we really don't want to fight HC until chemistry, we should attack Saldin or Cyrus now.
RobertTheBruce said:
I think this is a very good point. Catapults are great, but time is not on our side and we probably need to sacrifice units for speed.
RobertTheBruce said:
I really like this idea! I've never thought of it but it could be really useful in the early going & can make unit losses more tolerable. As we reach the home stretch, though, we should consider a switch back to caste system to run artists in conquered cities for faster border expansion.
RobertTheBruce said:
Let's be careful with this since CH / barracks can be pretty time consuming in some cities. In the production centers and forested areas, yes - but I like RobertTheBruce's pop-rush idea for those cities with high population and low production that would take more than 30 turns or so to start popping out units after CH and barracks build. This threshold should be even lower as we start attacking Roosevelt.
Grogs said:
I'm OK with 10 turns per set for the third go-round.
llib_rm
Prince
Grogs said:
Cats rule! They appear to be much better after the 1.61 patch. I use cats often. They are cheap. multifuctional, and upgrade to cannons: my second favorite unit.
However, our first HC landing will be under heavy attack and cats are not great defenders. I would recommend saving a stack of Cats for the second landing.
Well getting started here. After reading the posts I will up the cat production--the one nice thing about them is they always have some use.
1238 trade calander to Roosevelt for guilds +70g. send 2 galleons to scout
move all forces save one weak unit for garrison in the west to east.
Switch Elephantine to market, police state.
1244 forge complete in Rostov switch to barracks. Scout Huamanga (4) on the N and Tiwanaku (7) on the S coast. Both have 4 defenders, 2 spear and 1 spear rest longbows. No defensive terrain. Huamanga has horse--seems worth pillaging. continue with massed cats seeing 4 defenders and spears.
gandhi, hc, roosevelt have banking. Roosevelt will offer engineering and banking for astro. switch research to gunpowder--thinking I give the deal if gandhi gets astro. Tiwanaku is the confucian city but no shrine. HC is Roosevelt and Gandhi's worst enemy
1250 Roosevelt offers furs for gems--I accept. Roosevelt gets paper (no trade). Vilcas on the n w/2 units so far no hill cities. Trade stone to Roosevelt for 9 gpt.
1256 find Cuzco on the s side has 5 units + knight. So far I have seen only the one horse and two knights. no pike just spear but all longbows. I land on the horse w/9 units at our end of island. 1 caravel and 1 galley in Cuzco, only naval units i see so far.
1262-- HC does not respond to my invasion. HC is on an island but galley range to Sal. Bombard and send ships back for second wave. Roosevelt now will not trade eng. that is disappointing as I wanted to do the deal. Switch back to eng. research at 60% and -19/turn. Find NY and the great lighthouse, that will be important later. It is well defended. I have now seen all but at most 2 of Hc's cities and I see no mobile force--only 2 knights so far. Planning to slog ahead with cats and mace.
1268 merchant in elephantine--will send to Gandhi for $. Attack huamanga-unfortunately lose 2 mace but capture. Maybe should have razed as wasn't great but wanted a foothold. As we are trying to get domination, I am planning on keeping cities unless unneccessary. Don't have much great to do with my workers.
1274 moving in to attack tiwanaku
1280 copernicus born far away land. artist was born a few turns ago. Land reinforcements by tiwanaku--leave ships there to move force to cuzco. 2 spear, 1 cross, 2lb in tiwanaku. Gahdhi has astro but now can only get banking from Roosevelt. destroy a barb galley near the fur/deer island.
1286 only 2 lb and 2 spear in tiwanaku. Mace are 70% so I figure I'll save the cats for cuzco. tiwanaku falls without a loss. Cuzco has a knight and 4 lbs, 1 def2 and 2 def 1. this time i will use the suicide cats. Tiwanaku has gold. realize maybe I should send merchant to Roosevelt instead--at this point send to Delhi and see how it looks--can always continue. HC has not once attacked my force--looks like he will not put up much fight. Running 50% and -26gpt. found byblos by the whale/fish. I can get by land to Cuzco so send all but one ship back (and one to keep HC in port). Will use that one to bring injured units and let them have an extra turn to heal.
My only promo has been the galley--I think we can use the obsolete units for garrisons--see what develops.
1292--miscalulated--I don't have engineering yet so an extra turn to cuzco. Oh well--could use a little healing anyway and have some reinforcements coming. El amarna formed down by the deer and fur. thebes building grocer.
1298 down to 30% research hmmm. that merchant will go to Delhi I think. Engineering researched--gunpowder next. A few more units show up in Cuzco. Advancing on Cuzco
1304 roosevelt offers map exchange--decline. He has gunpowder (no trade)
Saladin cancels OB. Trade mission in Delhi +2550G. Computer ran scientists in Elephantine for a turn.
1310 My SOD next to cuzco. HC counterattacks we in open unfortunately. kill 2 cats, crossbow lose mace and spear to knights.
1316 reduce cuzco. I'll wait one turn, land 3 more cats and heal
1322 assault cuzco. Lose 2 cats and 2 mace. HC is broken. 3 ships destroyed in port. turn is only half finished--will stop here so strategy can be reevaluated.
I was wrong about HC--pretty easy after all. Economy slowing tho.
1238 trade calander to Roosevelt for guilds +70g. send 2 galleons to scout
move all forces save one weak unit for garrison in the west to east.
Switch Elephantine to market, police state.
1244 forge complete in Rostov switch to barracks. Scout Huamanga (4) on the N and Tiwanaku (7) on the S coast. Both have 4 defenders, 2 spear and 1 spear rest longbows. No defensive terrain. Huamanga has horse--seems worth pillaging. continue with massed cats seeing 4 defenders and spears.
gandhi, hc, roosevelt have banking. Roosevelt will offer engineering and banking for astro. switch research to gunpowder--thinking I give the deal if gandhi gets astro. Tiwanaku is the confucian city but no shrine. HC is Roosevelt and Gandhi's worst enemy
1250 Roosevelt offers furs for gems--I accept. Roosevelt gets paper (no trade). Vilcas on the n w/2 units so far no hill cities. Trade stone to Roosevelt for 9 gpt.
1256 find Cuzco on the s side has 5 units + knight. So far I have seen only the one horse and two knights. no pike just spear but all longbows. I land on the horse w/9 units at our end of island. 1 caravel and 1 galley in Cuzco, only naval units i see so far.
1262-- HC does not respond to my invasion. HC is on an island but galley range to Sal. Bombard and send ships back for second wave. Roosevelt now will not trade eng. that is disappointing as I wanted to do the deal. Switch back to eng. research at 60% and -19/turn. Find NY and the great lighthouse, that will be important later. It is well defended. I have now seen all but at most 2 of Hc's cities and I see no mobile force--only 2 knights so far. Planning to slog ahead with cats and mace.
1268 merchant in elephantine--will send to Gandhi for $. Attack huamanga-unfortunately lose 2 mace but capture. Maybe should have razed as wasn't great but wanted a foothold. As we are trying to get domination, I am planning on keeping cities unless unneccessary. Don't have much great to do with my workers.
1274 moving in to attack tiwanaku
1280 copernicus born far away land. artist was born a few turns ago. Land reinforcements by tiwanaku--leave ships there to move force to cuzco. 2 spear, 1 cross, 2lb in tiwanaku. Gahdhi has astro but now can only get banking from Roosevelt. destroy a barb galley near the fur/deer island.
1286 only 2 lb and 2 spear in tiwanaku. Mace are 70% so I figure I'll save the cats for cuzco. tiwanaku falls without a loss. Cuzco has a knight and 4 lbs, 1 def2 and 2 def 1. this time i will use the suicide cats. Tiwanaku has gold. realize maybe I should send merchant to Roosevelt instead--at this point send to Delhi and see how it looks--can always continue. HC has not once attacked my force--looks like he will not put up much fight. Running 50% and -26gpt. found byblos by the whale/fish. I can get by land to Cuzco so send all but one ship back (and one to keep HC in port). Will use that one to bring injured units and let them have an extra turn to heal.
My only promo has been the galley--I think we can use the obsolete units for garrisons--see what develops.
1292--miscalulated--I don't have engineering yet so an extra turn to cuzco. Oh well--could use a little healing anyway and have some reinforcements coming. El amarna formed down by the deer and fur. thebes building grocer.
1298 down to 30% research hmmm. that merchant will go to Delhi I think. Engineering researched--gunpowder next. A few more units show up in Cuzco. Advancing on Cuzco
1304 roosevelt offers map exchange--decline. He has gunpowder (no trade)
Saladin cancels OB. Trade mission in Delhi +2550G. Computer ran scientists in Elephantine for a turn.
1310 My SOD next to cuzco. HC counterattacks we in open unfortunately. kill 2 cats, crossbow lose mace and spear to knights.
1316 reduce cuzco. I'll wait one turn, land 3 more cats and heal
1322 assault cuzco. Lose 2 cats and 2 mace. HC is broken. 3 ships destroyed in port. turn is only half finished--will stop here so strategy can be reevaluated.
I was wrong about HC--pretty easy after all. Economy slowing tho.
Lmtoops
Warlord
Great going...that was too easy
Good work ungy. I can see from the save that HC appears to be on the ropes. Looking at Roosevelt's cities, I can also see that we've got our work cut out for us. What are everyone's thoughts on Roosevelt vs. Saladin now that we can see more of the map? Points in favor of Saladin is that he's weaker and closer. I also think he's more likely to stab us in the back while we're attacking Roosevelt than the other way around. My biggest fear is that we just don't have what it takes to get at Roosevelt for quite some time - those cities are huge.
I'll take a better look at the map tonight and try to come up with some more concrete short- and mid-term goals to help us acheive our ultimate objective.
I'll take a better look at the map tonight and try to come up with some more concrete short- and mid-term goals to help us acheive our ultimate objective.
Couple of thoughts from my play--I found myself a little caught up in the war effort and didn't do much strategic thinking--I just noticed we got some WW --maybe it kicks in after some battles. We will have furs and whale soon so that should buy us a little time. that would argue for finishing HC--although we will surely get WW with our next war.
not sure if it is worth colonizing the empty island with the copper--I suspect if we don't Gandhi will.
as far as next target goes: one advantage of Saladin is I think relations with him are probably unsalvagable while we still trade with Roosevelt and can launch from his borders. On the other hand, Roosevelt may have rifle/cav if we give him too long.
not sure if the cats will still be useful against Roosevelt--he will have muskets at least. We surely need a decent army of grenadiers to take him while for Saladin we can use current forces. Saladin may overbuild the camel archers which we can take with pike easily(although he doesn't have guilds yet). I saw modern forces in US. If we go for Roosevelt, we should make taking NY a priority. We have a lot of coastal cities for the lighthouse.
not sure if it is worth colonizing the empty island with the copper--I suspect if we don't Gandhi will.
as far as next target goes: one advantage of Saladin is I think relations with him are probably unsalvagable while we still trade with Roosevelt and can launch from his borders. On the other hand, Roosevelt may have rifle/cav if we give him too long.
not sure if the cats will still be useful against Roosevelt--he will have muskets at least. We surely need a decent army of grenadiers to take him while for Saladin we can use current forces. Saladin may overbuild the camel archers which we can take with pike easily(although he doesn't have guilds yet). I saw modern forces in US. If we go for Roosevelt, we should make taking NY a priority. We have a lot of coastal cities for the lighthouse.
I think 10 turns now makes sense--for one the turns will take longer and I think there is more to be gained by pausing and strategizing.
Another thought is that we shouldn't give units long marching orders that go way past our turns--too much chance the next player will not be aware of the units "showing up". Hope I didn't do that to you Grogs.
Another thought is that we shouldn't give units long marching orders that go way past our turns--too much chance the next player will not be aware of the units "showing up". Hope I didn't do that to you Grogs.
BTW the cats worked well against the longbow--I only used up a few and then typically attacked with the mace around 75% or so. Actually got unlucky with those attacks. Wasn't sure about the promos--I was giving the suicide cats CR2--not sure if collateral would've been better. Of course I didn't have any hill cities.
ungy said:
It depends on how close of a fight it is really. If the cats have a decent chance of winning (against archers, for example) CR is probably better. If they don't have much chance of winning (against high strength LB's or muskets+) the barrage series is much better. The way collateral damage works is different than normal damage in combat, so while a couple of cats may bounce off of a rifle defending a city without causing any damage, they can do significant damage to the rest of the defenders.
Danthor
Warlord
I don't like it very much playing so little, but on the other hand now that the WC has begun there isn't that much time to play so ok.Grogs said:
RobertTheBruce
King
Nice job crushing H.C. It looks like Cuzco was the only city geared toward production (there is probably another near the plains, hill iron). Machu Pichu is the only city on a hill, another bonus.
Chemistry is just around the corner and a few turns for cash to upgrade the maces to grenadiers. Do we want to strike Teddy quickly before he gets gunpowder and use this tech advantage or roll over Saladin (maybe get Teddy to join to reduce his counterattack stack) and collect a large unit advantage for the final blitz? It probably won't be possible to bribe Saladin to attack Teddy since he's always difficult with religion.
If we keep rolling this quickly, I don't think Teddy can tech to rifles before we destroy him either way. Maintenance wise, taking New York for the lighthouse would help but getting Saladin and Teddy fighting could ease our attack.
Edit: Teddy has gunpowder. I think this weighs toward attacking him first since he we have rifles sooner than I thought.
Chemistry is just around the corner and a few turns for cash to upgrade the maces to grenadiers. Do we want to strike Teddy quickly before he gets gunpowder and use this tech advantage or roll over Saladin (maybe get Teddy to join to reduce his counterattack stack) and collect a large unit advantage for the final blitz? It probably won't be possible to bribe Saladin to attack Teddy since he's always difficult with religion.
If we keep rolling this quickly, I don't think Teddy can tech to rifles before we destroy him either way. Maintenance wise, taking New York for the lighthouse would help but getting Saladin and Teddy fighting could ease our attack.
Edit: Teddy has gunpowder. I think this weighs toward attacking him first since he we have rifles sooner than I thought.
OK, I had a good look at the save. In the immediate future, I'll send two SOD's after HC, one overland towards Machu Picchu and another for Olly (that's what I always rename that city because it's name is much, much too long.) by sea. After they've taken the cities, I'll have them converge on the hidden city (Cory-something I think, I don't see that one anywhere.) Vilcas and Vilcabamba I'll clean up at the end. I think Vilcabamba should be razed - it's a garbage city, and the 2 cities west of it should fill in the land after 2 expansions.
Cuzco looks to be a production *powerhouse*, perhaps better than anything we have, given better circumstances. Plus it and Machu Picchu have lots of trees, so we can chop out a CH and barracks pretty quickly if there are workers available. Once HC's core cities start coming out of resistance, a switch to slavery may be in order for a little pop-rushing. I'm also thinking Cuzco may be the best spot we're going to get for the FP.
After HC is taken care of and chemistry researched, I'll start upgrading maces and loading forces onto galleys for our next assault. The choice of target probably won't fall on my turns (hey, I'm not *that* good.) If we want the Americans, I agree that New York is a prime target. It not only has the GL, it also has the Hindu holy shrine. We may want to try and grab that 'peninsula' where New York, Philadelphia, San Francisco, Atlanta are first. It looks like Roosevelt has a big chunk of land, so we may need to take a time-out in the middle of the war if WW is getting too bad and our forces need time to heal and reconsolidate. Taking the ones by Saladin first are a bad idea, since his cultural borders would engulf any city we take there, plus he may just decide to attack us.
EDIT: It will be tomorrow night before I get a chance to play my 10, so plenty of time for comments/suggestions.
Cuzco looks to be a production *powerhouse*, perhaps better than anything we have, given better circumstances. Plus it and Machu Picchu have lots of trees, so we can chop out a CH and barracks pretty quickly if there are workers available. Once HC's core cities start coming out of resistance, a switch to slavery may be in order for a little pop-rushing. I'm also thinking Cuzco may be the best spot we're going to get for the FP.
After HC is taken care of and chemistry researched, I'll start upgrading maces and loading forces onto galleys for our next assault. The choice of target probably won't fall on my turns (hey, I'm not *that* good.) If we want the Americans, I agree that New York is a prime target. It not only has the GL, it also has the Hindu holy shrine. We may want to try and grab that 'peninsula' where New York, Philadelphia, San Francisco, Atlanta are first. It looks like Roosevelt has a big chunk of land, so we may need to take a time-out in the middle of the war if WW is getting too bad and our forces need time to heal and reconsolidate. Taking the ones by Saladin first are a bad idea, since his cultural borders would engulf any city we take there, plus he may just decide to attack us.
EDIT: It will be tomorrow night before I get a chance to play my 10, so plenty of time for comments/suggestions.
mushroomshirt
King
Grogs said:
I'm tempted to agree with you on attacking Saladin first, but I'm worried that it is not an aggressive enough strategy. Attacking Roosevelt is riskier, but by the time we get to him we should have grenadiers. Since Roosevelt is so strong, I think we have to start weakening him even if it hurts us in the process. We should be able to out unit him, we just can't let him get too many more techs, esp. if we cut off techs after Chemistry.
BTW, it is Franklin, not Teddy Roosevelt, I believe.
llib_rm
Prince
I just looked at the save and wanted to give some random thoughts.
Ghandi has Astronomy. It will just be a matter of time before he starts settler spamming all the open spaces. I suggest we have a settler or three strategically placed to settle the open spaces when he comes by. Defensive settling, if you will.
We have no techs to trade with Gandhi, and soon we will fall behind Roosevelt. Trading our happiness resources is helping Roosevelt. Sometime soon we should cut him off.
Even though Chemistry will be a choice tech to trade, we should hold on as long as possible. It can be a game breaker.
There is still an outside chance to get a PA with Gandhi. Gandhi & Roosevelt have open borders. Once one adopts free religion, they will have a better relationship and we will get a reputation hit when attacking. Saladin does not have open borders with Gandhi yet, and will take longer to acquire free religion. The reputation hit for attacking Roosevelt may prevent us from getting a PA. I suggest we not narrow down the next opponent until our ships are locked, loaded, and two turns away from landing. Deciding between Boston or Kufah is a moot point from a supply line point of view.
Ghandi has Astronomy. It will just be a matter of time before he starts settler spamming all the open spaces. I suggest we have a settler or three strategically placed to settle the open spaces when he comes by. Defensive settling, if you will.
We have no techs to trade with Gandhi, and soon we will fall behind Roosevelt. Trading our happiness resources is helping Roosevelt. Sometime soon we should cut him off.
Even though Chemistry will be a choice tech to trade, we should hold on as long as possible. It can be a game breaker.
There is still an outside chance to get a PA with Gandhi. Gandhi & Roosevelt have open borders. Once one adopts free religion, they will have a better relationship and we will get a reputation hit when attacking. Saladin does not have open borders with Gandhi yet, and will take longer to acquire free religion. The reputation hit for attacking Roosevelt may prevent us from getting a PA. I suggest we not narrow down the next opponent until our ships are locked, loaded, and two turns away from landing. Deciding between Boston or Kufah is a moot point from a supply line point of view.
llib_rm
Prince
mushroomshirt said:
You're correct. I just double ckecked...
llib_rm said:
I think PA chance is pretty remote. My experience in this area is limited, but need communism or fascism. Both a long way off and we will never get there if we keep up the conquest track. Gandhi typically goes other directions. I think best to plan a conquest game and not worry about the PA.
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