SGOTM 02 - Fifth Element

BLubmuz · Sep 22, 2006

Hey guys, past the congratulations at Perugia (that he deserves - i forget in my previous posts :blush:

) and other amenities, would you like, please, tell me what i have to do? :mad:

Anyway i think i'll play tonight, probably after 09.00PM GMT.

Merum · Sep 22, 2006

Things to do today

1. Take Djenne, and keep it
2. Take Timbuktu, and keep it
3. Get printing press and trade it around for what you can get for it
4. Continue to prepare army surprise for Huayna Capac
5. Raze any other Malinese cities you can get away with

Perugia · Sep 22, 2006

BLumbuz. I agree that swords and axes will be no good. Samurai are awesome due to their first strikes. Your half way route sounds good if we need that extra upgrade to fill a galleon. Oh and yes you are right MM tends to have a small army.

Note that I did not send any obsolete units over to the ring continent (except medics).

BrianS. Here's what I'd like from GP production. If we can get a Great Prophet within 15 turns then I think it is worth building the shrine. Otherwise we would need to rethink later.

1) Make next GPerson pop from Madrid targeting priest but expecting engineer. We can run second priest there soon by rushing taoist temple and reducing the time to less than 15 turns.

2) Get Kyoto to pop the next great person. Hopefully a scientist but merchant would do. Run as many specialists as possible but do not overtake Madrid.

If they are different we could use these 2 GP for a golden age. If we get 2 engineers we can build a wonder and/or West Point. Alternatively we can always use on technology (I don't have the list to hand so can't check).

3) If we want the third shrine, get Madrid to pop a great prophet using 3 priests + National Epic. Use that to build shrine in Toledo. Otherwise just go for any great person by maxing out on specialists.

4) Defense. Just remember that the AI does not have Astronomy and if we control/raze MMs coastal cities even if he gets the tech he won't be able to build any galleons to worry us. HC Has no cities on the inner coast to worry us either.

The only real risk is if KK, Mao, Hatty or Bismarck DoWs on us after Astronomy! Only the aggressive ones are likely to unless they hate us.

Doom Train · Sep 22, 2006

Looks like KK wants to join the party. So get Djenne and Timbuktu before him...

BLubmuz · Sep 22, 2006

@Merum
I'll try to do my best ... OK we was jocking

.

about city raze: are you still jockin'? anyway it's too soon for this, in case i'll post during the war.

@Doom Train
I've seen your last post ... that army can crush an entire civ in few turns
... i'll try to beat KK, hoping he will be busy with MM
Tiflis: is a former mongolian city, isn't it?

Again @Merum (your post after this)
you're right.
I forget the target for this game.
Unfortunately we can't see how developed a city is when we conquer it, we'll can judge only from resources nearby and the position.
As I said this is not in my turn, we'll keep both Djenne and Timbu (if we are able to conquer them), but we need to plan which city can be razed.

Merum · Sep 22, 2006

@Blubmuz: I'm not joking about razing. The goal of this game is the fastest conquest victory, so we need to keep the maximum amount of troops on the front lines, and we should be pretty much always war from the time we declare on Mansa Musa. We don't want to keep cities that will be useful to us in the long-term, because if there is a long term, then we haven't achieved our goals.

Any city that does not do one of the following things for us should be razed:
1. Provide a strategic advantage due to position or resources or wonders
2. Come on line quickly enough to be an effective unit producer in the next 20 turns after taking
3. Add positive cash flow to our treasury within the next 20 turns after taking it.

If a city doesn't meet one of those criteria, then it's bad for us strategically to keep it in a fast-conquest game. Scorched earth is just as good for us as a useless city.

Score doesn't matter. Only the fastest conquest victory will win. It doesn't matter if our economy is in ruin when the last enemy city is destroyed. We don't want an empire, we want a war machine that will destroy everybody else as quickly as possible, and we can't go over the domination limit.

We should have a solid goal, for example: "Destroy every other civilization 125 turns after getting astronomy without exceeding the domination limit". Anything that doesn't directly contribute to this goal should be ignored.

If we do this right, we should be on the verge of collapse ourselves when we win. That will mean that we haven't wasted anything, and that all of our resources went to the war effort. If we have a buttload of units left at the end of the last war, we've spent too much time building them and not enough time fighting.

Other than that, I'm usually joking.

BLubmuz · Sep 22, 2006

I'll edit tomorrow already posted, for now:

IT - 1484AD
We got 3 units ready to ferry (2s+1c), so i keep res. PP
switched Barce + Seville to forge, we'll need to whip that ASAP.
Moving units to Mali
some MM here and there

t01 - 1490
Taoism spread in Madrid
moving troops

t02 - 1496
PP, started Gunpowder @0, 4t @max
moving troops

t03 - 1502
moving troops
Satsuma: switched to WB, work copper

t04 - 1508
upgraded an axe, a barb longbow is approaching Osaka
I wait to DoW on MM to see if B. ask to join and what KK does - nothing happened, so
DoW on MM, to start approach Djenne for bombardment

t05 - 1514
our new S. destroyed barb L., and our first mounted unit a warrior approaching Santiago
siege begins
HC is now annoyed, 'cause he's pleased with MM, despite MM is annoyed with him (?)
upgraded 2 swords i'm praying for a GP

t06 - 1520
IBT 3 MM cats attacked our first stack, and a S. was beaten
Djenne has 2L+1M next turn will fall with its 2 shrines (F9)
I keep some unit in New Japan, to avoid surprises
I'm afraid HC closes his borders

t07 - 1523
St. John is born in Madrid!!!
2 MM caravels are starving Toledo, sent a galleon to cure it
defenses to 24%, attack!!!
2S lost, Djenne is ours with its 2 shrines (13+20 gold), HG, forge and aqueduct and 8 turns resistance - started a theatre
but the cultural pressure is terrible, we need to capture Timbuktu ASAP
traded PP to Hatty for Economics + WM + 210g (she asked for OB 1 or 2 turns ago, and i accepted)
Bismark is too advanced, first of all he's got cavalry ...
no more units worth upgrade, Gunpowder in 2 turns
sent our GP in Toledo for our shrine

t08 - 1526
fortified our troops in Djenne
siege of Walata, i wanna destroy it
IBT our galleon near Toledo won against first caravel, lost on 2nd
another galleon lost against a barb galley!!! luck, where are you?

t09 - 1529
Church of Nativity in Toledo +17g
started MT @0, due in 7t, B. still trades nothing
our hindu missionary failed to spread Madrid, whipped NE for 4 pops (3 unhappy)

t10 - 1532
IBT MM ammassed troops to retake Djenne, our pike died after a cat and a knight
caravel near Toledo is gone, Walata too (razed) with no losses
cultural pressure is now only from east, i built a road with a captured worker during the siege, so i upgraded our spear and our Jigoro to pikes
cost doesn't matter, we have knights to fight

t11 - 1535
IBT a S was beaten by a cat!!! not much luck, isn't it? our pike beat a knight
a chinese galleon with settler + musket + longbow is near Toledo
moving troops to Djenne
chopping forge in Barce
destroyed the barb galley

t12 - 1538
IBT 1 cat destroyed and 1 retired against our S, then destroyed by our knight
all our troops in Djenne, i let them heal, upgraded an axe and a spear
1 Knight, 9 Samurai, 3 pikes, 7 cats 1 worker in Djenne, 1 knight is arriving, no more troops for now
Mao probably will sit on Iron ... he will be eaten by our culture
whipped forge in Aryan for 2 pop (1 unhappy)
whipped forge in Barce for 3 pop (3 unhappy)

t13 - 1541
6 sam, 1 pike, 5 cats marching to Timbuktu
chinese galleon is going south
Bismark was happy to give us 200 gold, but doesn't trade (we have nothing to sale, but just to know)

t14 - 1544
stack moving

t15 - 1547
whipped Theatre in Djenne for 2 pop, we need culture there
stack in hill, T. siege begins
2 maces + 2 cats outside Djenne
destroyed another barb galley

Spoiler :

it's up to you, Doom Train, good luck

Sweetacshon · Sep 23, 2006

Good TS Blubmuz.

Did you say HC closed his borders? Looks ok on the save.

Thoughts:

Arian and S&T are running too many specialists imo, they could work food tiles to increase pop and then have specialists.

Gaul has only 2 l/b defenders at the moment.. maybe we should grab it as it's not a bad prioduction city. Speaking of taking cities, this is a major issue. After Timbuktu, What do we do, keep fighting MM or turn on HC?? If we continue, raze Kumbi Saleh, Niani doesn't look great but could be a fair prodn city, and Gao I wouldn't normally keep, but it is the Confusion holy city, so....? If we get peace with MM, will it keep Bismark busy, or are we better off just eliminating MM now? To tell the truth, I never really go for conquest victories, so I'm not sure.

Looking forward to HC, Cuzco and Ollytaotambo (?) are certainly keepers, Tiawanku provides a naval base, but isnt that great, Corihuanachina (?) has silver and keeps an eye on KK, and Vilcabamba could be an ok prodn city. The rest can burn, and maybe some of these as well.

Diplomatically, Hatty is open to the idea of war with Mao, who is in turn open to the idea of attacking KK... which could be useful. We don't have the resources for it yet, but maybe soon.

@Merum OK, I'll throw in a steak as well - a nice prime rib delicately spiced with just a hint of mad cow.

BLubmuz · Sep 23, 2006

a new post to comments on my TS

Thanks Sweetacshon, i said "i'm afraid HC closes ..." (maybe was better "i'm afraid HC can close ...") ... but HC did nothing.

I never see mid-age units beaten by a cat!!!
Better, by the 4th or 5th cat, yes, never the first one.

So our stack is barely sufficent to conquer T., i would move the 2 knights, but i fear the pike, and we have to wait the musket arrives in D. to cover them with a Samurai.
As i never seen a defender galleon beaten by a galley ... definitely no luck this TS, except for the GP (17gpt are precious).

I rush forges to have more productive cities, and for happiness, too (+1 for gems and gold), now it's better some MM.

We need tons of units, i'll use knights and muskets, but only Osaka can produce them at a good pace, neglecting buildings ... pity.

I wish to conquer Gaul, not sure to keep or raze it to build a city 1W or 1N (can't remember now).

For sure things are not easy, we're behind in tech, and i've seen some german frigate around.

One last thought, about RL: never buy a house with a garden, or you face the true meaning of slavery (garden+wife combo is powerful)

Doom Train · Sep 23, 2006

Got the save. I ll take a look at it tonight

Nice turnset Blumbuz

Merum · Sep 23, 2006

We can use Germany's strength to our advantage... If we work this right, he'll be our cute little pit bull and grind the others down for us. wars will slow the research of everybody.

We should pit the strong against the strong, then sweep in and clean up the mess.

And, lest we forget the last game... We can get a conquest victory in a permanent alliance, as well, if we need to.

It's time to stop this binary research stuff. IMO, it's partially responsible for getting us into this tech hole. Turn research up to 80% and get MT in 6 with positive cash flow. Then, get on the infantry or tank research track, and stay there. Better infantry... I think if we get to tanks, we will have lost this SGOTM. We can have rifles to go with our cavalry in 25 turns at 80%.

Superior firepower can always be countered with artillery and collateral damage. I've had it done enough to me by the AI, we can do it to them, because we can think. Also, targeting resources can negate the building of advanced units by the AI. We should have a rapid reaction force of fast units to do this in each war.

Other wars need to be started, if possible. It will consume resources of the other countries, and slow their research. They should involve the strongest AIs we can pit against one another. Right now, the world should be on fire. At minimum, Egypt and Mogolia should be at war with somebody, preferably each other.

Capturing Niani, if troops are available, will give us a nice triangle of cities in Mali, and a good cultural buffer. Everything else should be razed. If we raze it, that means another AI can't capture it. Mali will be gassed after we get Timbuktu.

Astronomy needs to be traded now for whatever we can get for it. I doubt it will be much, because we waited too long.

Once Timbuktu is captured, try to bring KK into the war against Mali. We could use the positive relationship points.

BLubmuz · Sep 23, 2006

@Merum
You're right on almost anything, but I disagree about binary research:
it's purpose is maximise the cash flow when to 0% and the research when to 100%, and it works fine, usually.
Our problem was the lack of money, due to the distance from Palace and the amount of money we pay for transport our units at the front: bear in mind that we have 4 to 6 units free outside our borders, we has at least 12 during our game, plus units maintenance.
I can't see the difference between research a tech @80% in 6 turns and 0% for 1 turn + 100% for 5, the result is the same, but we save some more beaker and gold in this way.

Probably was better not move the Palace to Osaka, but when we did we was near to bankrupt, and we had no time to wait for the needed courthouses.
Now we got some 60 gpt from our shrines, an improved territory and cities and our financial situation is good.
And probably was a mistake not have traded Astronomy, but it seemed the right thing.
The AIs had a jump, but because we spent the few money we had instead of research.
Don't forget AI get a 70% discount on upgrades, that means 3.33 units for 1 of the human.
Another mistake we made was not ferry 2 longbows, probably we avoided to lost expensive Samurais (i was making a similar mistake in GotM9), but ... it's a game, we can learn from our mistakes and do better next one.

What we need is to define a research path: we can go for MT and rifling, or for chemistry and steel, we need a priority.

In my turnset i spent a lot of money in upgrades, and this has slowered our research, in addition to more than 20 units outside our borders.

And you're right, we need to define a war strategy ... Doom Train can post which AI can be bribed at war with another AI, and we can define a strategy, eventually with a "poll".

Then let's do this, it's not too late (i hope)

I'm sorry for my english, but i show my limits in this kind of discussions.

Doom Train · Sep 23, 2006

I looked at save here are my observations

Bismark is ready to adopt Free Religion for 370g. This will take off +4 relationship bonus with Hatty.

KK offers Divine Right + 110g + World map and Hatty offers 280g + World Map for Astronomy.

I think we should finish off MM as soon as possible. His other cities shouldn t be tight as Timbuktu.

HC and KK are running fav civic of each other(+5 bonus). I wonder where KK will use his huge army.

@Merum
Permnent Alliances are not enabled in this game(Click settings tab in victory screen)

@Blubmuz
I think there is no need for that "poll" thing now but we can do it after we get something bribe AI's.

Merum · Sep 24, 2006

Doom Train said:
@Merum
Permnent Alliances are not enabled in this game(Click settings tab in victory screen)

D'oh! My bad. I guess we'll have to do it ourselves.

No tech for Astronomy at all? Don't trade it away for just gold. I'd rather have them research it themselves. Can we get anybody to DoW on anybody for it?

Maybe I just don't feel comfortable with this binary research because I'm not familiar with it, but it just doesn't seem to be working well in my opinion. We've got enough gold to research MT and probably another full tech right now at 100%, and we can research at 80% with positive cash flow. If we're working this hard for single beakers, I honestly don't think it's worth the effort, but I've never been known as a huge micromanager.

I think the research path needs to be MT, then beeline to rifles. Cannons or infantry, after that.

@Blumbmuz: Your language skills are fine. I've never had a problem understanding what you're saying.

Merum · Sep 25, 2006

Wow. Slow news day, I guess. *watches a tumbleweed roll by*

Sweetacshon · Sep 25, 2006

Well, you know how Sundays are... even tho today is Monday.

@Blubmuz - don't worry about your English, we understand you just fine, it's just that sometimes words in different positions have slightly different meanings. If I'd read your sentence about HC more closely, for example, I would have understod exactly what you meant. I don't know about the others here, but I am monolingual, so that makes you a better communicator than me.

The game - well it does seem like a monumental task, but the old adage of divide and conquer seems to fit. The highest priority is getting Hatty into a conflict. On our own front, let's grab Timb'u and finish off MM. I'd like to get quickly onto HC so we can get his prodn cities up and running asap... our lack of soley unit producing cities is a bit painful right now.

For techs, MT > rifles sounds fine. I'm wondering if we'll need frigates to keep our galleons safe and help bombard - which would speed the conquest but reduce prodn capacity for land units.

Perugia · Sep 25, 2006

Good Turnset Blumbuz. Some comments.

I agree with the divide & conquer strategy. I don't need a poll. If we can get any AI to DoW on another then we should do it.

Converting Bismark to free religion sounds good but won't he switch back to Theocracy as he is at war with MM.

This is conquest so everyone must familiarise themselves with the pop rush table I posted. With a forge you can convert 1 pop into 88 hammers this way. At the end of the game our cities should all be pop rushed to the 3 citizen limit to maximise our military.

Raze & Pillage
If we have spare units near any city we will raze or have razed we can pillage improvements to earn some more gold. This will pay unit costs for one turn. Near borders we should pillage tiles that will fall into a third AIs culture that we are not [yet] at war with before we raze the city whose culture is holding back the opponents.

We can also break up the road network in neutral territory into individual strands leading back to our cities. Key junctions should be left on hills/forests where we can defend chokepoints. This will limit hostile AIs ability to use the roads to outflank us.

Another mistake we made was not ferry 2 longbows, probably we avoided to lost expensive Samurais (i was making a similar mistake in GotM9), but ... it's a game, we can learn from our mistakes and do better next one.

Kyoto & Surf n Turf can pop rush longbows for us. Don't forget with their forges we get 88 hammers when the build has 45-56 remaining.

Unfortunately we can't see how developed a city is when we conquer it, we'll can judge only from resources nearby and the position.

Yes we can! :scan:

Just before the last defender is eliminated zoom in right close and you can see any buildings. Train yourself to recognise granary, forge, market, grocer, lighthouse etc by zooming in on some of our own cities. It helps if you also learn to recognise the religions buildings but remember they always get torched so don't factor in the equation as to whether the city should be razed or kept.

Alliance
I don't know but have we yet asked Bismarck to attack one of the Milanese cities. That way if he decides to attack MM we are in control.

In general terms when we and the AI are at war with the same opponent we should always direct their attack. Normally I send them somewhere we don't want to keep or somewhere where they will take a long time to get there or somewhere heavily defended or on a hill.

BLubmuz · Sep 25, 2006

Perugia said:
Yes we can! Just before the last defender is eliminated zoom in right close and you can see any buildings. Train yourself to recognise granary, forge, market, grocer, lighthouse etc by zooming in on some of our own cities. It helps if you also learn to recognise the religions buildings but remember they always get torched so don't factor in the equation as to whether the city should be razed or kept.

You're right, but we can never know what buildings we'll find:
We know that every cultrual building will disappear, but i've seen a completely developed city left with just a bank, then you can see which buidings a city has, but you'll never know which buildings you'll actually find.

Perugia said:
In general terms when we and the AI are at war with the same opponent we should always direct their attack. Normally I send them somewhere we don't want to keep or somewhere where they will take a long time to get there or somewhere heavily defended or on a hill.

I don't know how to direct an AI attack: would you explain, please?
I've learned many things in this SG, and this will be another one, and interesting, too.

Merum · Sep 25, 2006

BLubmuz said:
I don't know how to direct an AI attack: would you explain, please?
I've learned many things in this SG, and this will be another one, and interesting, too.

When you're at war with a civ and another civ is allied with you, you can ask them to attack a specific location by the "why don't we talk about something else" menu in the conversation.

Doom Train · Sep 25, 2006

After eventfull 6 turns i managed to capture Timbuktu. I stopped so we can discuss latest events.

Turn 1 : Longbow started in S&T.

Turn 2: HC canceled OB. Good news is our musketman automatically transfered near Djenne. 4 Units attacked from Timbuktu all destroyed. Tokyo completed cat started musket Osaka completed Knight started musket. Bismark razed Gao.

Turn 3: Made a deal with Hatty sheep for banana.

Turn 4: MM attacked Djenne with mace and cat which were destroyed. Caraval defeated barb galley. Pop rushed longbow in S&T pop rushed tao temple in Madrid.

Turn 5: Pop rushed musket in tokyo. Attackers of Djenne left their post. I think Bismark is causing trouble. Mao has established a city in our continent.

Turn 6: Learned military tradition started replacaple Parts. Galleon destroyed barb galley. Kumbi Saleh razed by Bismark. Whipped Christian temple in Kyoto. Timbuktu is ours. It has Academy in it...

Save uploaded so you can take a look at it.

SGOTM 02 - Fifth Element

HoF Quattromaster

Permanent Jet Lag

Prince

Warlord

HoF Quattromaster

Permanent Jet Lag

HoF Quattromaster

In the foetal position

HoF Quattromaster

Warlord

Permanent Jet Lag

HoF Quattromaster

Warlord

Permanent Jet Lag

Permanent Jet Lag

In the foetal position

Prince

HoF Quattromaster

Permanent Jet Lag

Warlord

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