Pre-turn Start WB in Kyoto so city can grow to happiness limit. Will switch back to settler after citizen pops in 6 turns.
Increase science to 80% - Alpha now due in 2
Keep Library build in Osaka - really need a culture pop.
Turn 1 925 BC
The Oracle IBIAFAL
Start forest chop in Tokyo
Move new Axe to Forested hill S of Osaka
Turn 2 910 BC
Alpha discovered
Research dropped to 40% (-1GPT)
Sailing chosen as next research (temporarily)
As expected Izzie will not trade. Unfortunately, she's fairly advanced compared to the lowly Fifth Elementers:
Here's our current build situation:
Tokyo: Axe due in 1 turn in Tokyo. Next build will be library. Workers are already chopping a forest, which will be due in 4 turns to help with library build. We also have 2 pop in Tokyo now, which helps with production, although growth is now stagnant.
Osaka: Library due in 13 turns, but we'll have another citizen in 2 turns who will speed this along. Also, after worker completes Tokyo library chop, I'll bring him 2N2E of Osaka to chop library for Osaka. This is just outside Osaka's fat cross so will result in fewer hammers. Should we instead chop next to Osaka for most hammers?
With Izzie to our N and W, I'm starting to move troops south to aid in fogbusting. Here's the current scenario:
Since Izzie will not trade, we need to go our own way on research. Stonehenge is not an option as it was built in a faraway land in 1630 BC. I think we go with sailing for now. It will be due in 9. However, I think I'll MM Kyoto to remove 1 scientist for 2 turns, which will speed Kyoto's growth from 4 turns to 2. It only increases Sailing research by 1 turn to 10, which may be made up by getting the extra citizen sooner. It also aids means we can research at 40% without a deficit.
Exams went well enough. The drinking was for celebration and relaxation, not drowning sorrows
So, I might need a bit of direction, not that I'm totally in the dark, but I haven't caught every move. Does Brian play the rest of his TS now?
We are not settling any more to the south yet, but building axes for the "settlement" of Izzy's lands. Why is she annoyed? Do we have her boxed in on a little peninsular, or does she just hate everyone? Anyway, we did sign open borders, right, so we'll need a spy... er... envoy. Is it safe to take the warrior on the gem mine, considering there'll be no more barbs from the north, and we have an axe next turn?
Longer term, if she has 4-5 cities, how many are we keeping, and how many are we razing? How many axes do we want to take along, and do we want any buildings other than the libraries before concentrating on the axes?
after Alpha better go for IW (to see where iron is) >Mysticism>Agri, then CoL
QED Izzy won't trade: she's a jerk, as usually Toku (AI) is: if you don't share her religion (but she hasn't) she never trade, also OB is strange.
About OB, I agree with Doom Train, let's send a warrior to investigate, ASA we'll have more units to protect and fogbusting.
Anyway she's not so advanced: Alpha alone is the sum of the techs listed in the picture, and writing pays for Medi or Poly, that for sure she knows but we can't see
IMO we MUST keep all her cities, we need a good core, and we'll save the time to build settlers, using it to "settle by the axe", as someone said, and to build the Palace in Osaka.
If we'll raze a city, we'll have to fogbust barbs, distracting units from the Spanish war: our science will be slowered, but with Palace in O. and CH we'll soon catch a good rate.
I guess this is not a game to win by axes or maces, but with cavalry and grenadiers, if not with bombers and tanks: other civs are probably far advanced and to catch up we'll need to destroy Spain ASAP, then focus on research
We can let Izzy with a single city, sue for peace for techs, and right after the 10 turns finish her off.
The research path: Sailing > IW, then the path for CoL to get courthouses, that are cheap, due to our organized trait.
The GS that soon or later will pop in Kyoto cab be used to learn Math (if I remember correctly the progression of science by GP), or as SS in Kyoto (an academy is perhaps better in very long term, but +6S+1H right now are better).
We need to define some long term strategies, so this is my opinion, waiting for yours.
Having just deficit researched a tech, I think we should now switch to binary science rate, ie. set science rate to 0% until we have enough gold to complete our research project at 100%. This will maximise the benefit we get from the libraries.
Agree about removing the scientist to speed Kyoto growth.
Agree about IW & CoL we need to know where Iron is and must have courthouses & FP.
We would need to share her religion to trade but there are 2 benefits of OB 1) We can use it for exploration and should send a warrior over to do this.
2) We are getting a foreign trade route in Osaka but must grow Tokyo to get one there.
Medium term strategy surely must be to locate ALL AIs so we can work out which techs are needed to win . We should probably have a medium research target of Optics so we can build some Caravels to scout as well as protect our archipeligo cities from barbs.
We need to be careful about not getting sucked into a war with Spain that will devastate our research rate if we need Astronomy or Chemistry before we know where other AI are.
Better to let Izzy fully develop the cities for us while we learn the essential techs to win.
The fact that we haven't met anybody else would seem to suggest that we will need optics to get to them. Surely at least one of them has sailing already, and we have visibility on both the E and W coasts of the big land mass. That's not a definitive statement, but it's my guess. To me, this ranks IW ahead of sailing, in my opinion.
I think we should also push out a quick workboat at Tokyo to explore the coastline. That will give us a much better idea of where we stand in the world.
I think we should plan on taking all of Izzy's cities and keeping them. They'll make up our core, and if we break them, we'll need fogbusters out the wazoo, which has already been mentioned before.
I think we should plan to acquire Izzy's territory no later than in conjunction with code of laws. That way, we'll be able to courthouse the new cities ASAP. I really think we should go after her ASAP. She's already pissed at us anyway, and that's not likely to change.
Keep in mind that the longer we wait to take on Izzy, the stronger she'll get. Then we'll end up talking about waiting for cats, and god knows what else. Remember the last game, we really waited way too long before taking on Catherine, and it cost us. Fortune favors the bold. A near term hit in cash flow from taking her cities will be offset both by the plunder from taking the cities, and their earlier realized profitability from becoming productive for us sooner. It's possible to finance research on plunder, if your force moves quickly enough.
In the next 20 turns or so I'd be trying to build a big enough stack of axes to take Seville, and the city W of Osaka away from her.
Side note: Does anybody have warlords? I was playing the rise of Rome scenario last night and noticed that the Praetorians bring a cool little siege tower with them that you can see when they attack a city.
Merum, the reason I want to complete sailing is so that we can settle the cow island north of Kyoto. As the cultural boundaries for that city expand, it may get us access to other lands. What additional thing will IW get us today that we need in order to take on Izzy?
Well, how long until we have a settler and a galley to move him? Do we plan to whip the galley?
I see the value of settling Surf and Turf Island, as it will get us more health for Kyoto, and eventually every place in our empire. I'm not sure if it will reveal anything but tundra, given its position on the minimap, but you never know. I'm concerned with what the founding of yet another city will do to our research rate.
IW would give us the ability to see Izzy's iron (assuming she has some) and therefore target it, hampering her war effort.
My primary concern is that we don't get bogged down in FUD and delay attacking Isabella for too long. We need to take her down quickly, IMO. Therefore, my mind is focused on techs that give us military advantage.
As always, I'm willing to adapt my opinions in the presence of good alternatives, and you make a strong point.
Since there is debate over whether IW or Sailing should be next it would be realy wise to follow binary research as I proposed in post #127 and set science to 0% at the moment.
There seems to be consensus to go for Izzy quite soon and I don't mind following that strategy even though personally I would have waited longer. The one good thing about our position is that the archepeligo part of our empire can continue focussing on a builder strategy while the other part goes over to conquest.
I think that in the 20 turns or so it will take us to build enough axes and complete the library in Tokyo for culture we will have researched IW and sailing so it does not matter if we slip Sailing in ahead of IW. I think that the maintenance from Surf & Turf Ville will be low as it is close to the capital and will assist us towards CoL, not hinder it. We will then have 2 water bound cities for ships & science and 2 for land units. This should be fun.
This should then allow us to learn CoL about the time Izzy is a beaten force. It would be cool to learn maths so we can get the most out of forest chopping our cheap courthouses but that would divert us from the main research path so maybe we should settle on just pop rushing them using the 45-54 hammers remaining exploit.
@Merum. We should be able to target Izzies iron without actually seeing iron on the map because we would still be able to target any roaded mines. Also since she does not have sailing it will be pretty easy to isolate the spanish cities from each other by disrupting their trade network. One city with iron connected should bot bother us.
I agree abould us waiting too long in SGOTM01 before attacking Cathy. I believe one strongly contributing factor to this was that we miscalculated how strong a force was needed and built more war chariots than we actually needed before comiting to attacking the cities.
I further believe that we did this because we did not allow for the -20% modifier a unit gets for being attacked a second time in the same turn. Roughly speaking we sent 3x as many attackers to the party as defenders when just over 2x would have sufficed. Let us not make this mistake again especially as our aggressive trait gives our melee units a 10% advantage.
Taking into account the comments from the team:
Binary research it is. 0% on the research slider translates to +13 GPT, with Sailing due in a mere 55 turns.
Send Date north to start scouting
Turn 3 895 BC Tokyo: Axe->Library (27 turns - ack)
Turn 5 865 Barb archer and warrior appear S and E of Osaka.
Clearing a forest created 30H for Tokyo
Date scouts Cordoba NW of Osaka. Pop 3, defended by 2 archers
Turn 7 835 Barba archer and warrior are destroyed
Turn 10 790 Izzy cancels open borders. Rats. Izzy has a chariot and an archer just north of Osaka. Is this a precursor to war? Time to bring the troops home. The southern fog busters are sent back to Osaka.
Turn 12 760 Merit Ptah is born in Kyoto. I have him discover Math so we can improve our chopping returns.
Defeat barb warrior S of Tokyo
Izzie's chariot and archer move on to the city W of Osaka.
Turn 13 745 Osaka Library->Axe
Worker finished chop in Tokyo. He's sent to start roading gold S of Osaka, which will pop it's borders soon.
Sailing -> IW
Research slider set to 0 for binary research
Turn 14 730 Barb warrior killed
Turn 15 715 Zzzzz
After Izzy revoked open borders and looked threatening, I brought our archer who had been sent on fog busting duty to the south back to the hill W of Osaka so he can keep an eye on Izzy.
The workers are roading the gold hill south of Osaka. The borders should pop in a couple turns, and when they do we should immediately mine the gold. It will greatly increase production in Osaka, and will also add a happy face, allowing Osaka to grow another citizen.
The barbs have slowed down, although I did kill several this turnset.
The library is due in 2 in Tokyo. After it comes in, we should set it to axes (with a galley or WB somewhere in there to explore our coast)
The settler is due in 3 in Kyoto. After that we should build a galley to ferry it to SurfAndTurf (should we use that name for the city?).
I'm on binary research, with 0% on the slider, but I'm wondering why we don't want to just pump it up to 70%. We know we want IW next, and isn't 70% more efficient?
What to do about Izzy? I'm bummed she canceled our OB before I finished exploring her lands. I checked each turn, and she was never willing to give OB again.
Here is your Session Turn Log from 940 BC to 700 BC:
Spoiler:
Turn 104, 940 BC: The Oracle has been built in a far away land!
Turn 105, 925 BC: You have discovered Alphabet!
Turn 109, 865 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.00) vs Fifth Element's Zen (Archer) (4.50)
Turn 109, 865 BC: Combat Odds: 4.5%
Turn 109, 865 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 109, 865 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 109, 865 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 109, 865 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 109, 865 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 109, 865 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 109, 865 BC: Fifth Element's Zen (Archer) is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 109, 865 BC: Fifth Element's Zen (Archer) is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 109, 865 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 109, 865 BC: Fifth Element's Zen (Archer) has defeated Barbarian's Archer!
Turn 110, 850 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs Fifth Element's Kano (Warrior) (3.40)
Turn 110, 850 BC: Combat Odds: 3.6%
Turn 110, 850 BC: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 110, 850 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 110, 850 BC: (Combat: +25%)
Turn 110, 850 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 110, 850 BC: Fifth Element's Kano (Warrior) is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 110, 850 BC: Fifth Element's Kano (Warrior) is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 110, 850 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 110, 850 BC: Fifth Element's Kano (Warrior) is hit for 15 (55/100HP)
Turn 110, 850 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 110, 850 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 110, 850 BC: Fifth Element's Kano (Warrior) has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 111, 835 BC: Fifth Element's Axeman (5.50) vs Barbarian's Archer (3.00)
Turn 111, 835 BC: Combat Odds: 98.2%
Turn 111, 835 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 111, 835 BC: Fifth Element's Axeman is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 111, 835 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 111, 835 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 111, 835 BC: Fifth Element's Axeman is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 111, 835 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 111, 835 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 111, 835 BC: Fifth Element's Axeman has defeated Barbarian's Archer!
Turn 114, 790 BC: Merit Ptah has been born in Kyoto!
Turn 115, 775 BC: You have discovered Mathematics!
Turn 115, 775 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs Fifth Element's Kazuya (Archer) (3.00)
Turn 115, 775 BC: Combat Odds: 6.2%
Turn 115, 775 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 115, 775 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 115, 775 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 115, 775 BC: Fifth Element's Kazuya (Archer) is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 115, 775 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 115, 775 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 115, 775 BC: Fifth Element's Kazuya (Archer) has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 116, 760 BC: You have discovered Sailing!
Turn 118, 730 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Osaka!
Turn 118, 730 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs Fifth Element's Jigoro (Warrior)
(3.70)
Turn 118, 730 BC: Combat Odds: 1.2%
Turn 118, 730 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 118, 730 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 118, 730 BC: (Combat: +25%)
Turn 118, 730 BC: Fifth Element's Jigoro (Warrior) is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 118, 730 BC: Fifth Element's Jigoro (Warrior) is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 118, 730 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 27 (73/100HP)
Turn 118, 730 BC: Fifth Element's Jigoro (Warrior) is hit for 14 (58/100HP)
Turn 118, 730 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 27 (46/100HP)
Turn 118, 730 BC: Fifth Element's Jigoro (Warrior) is hit for 14 (44/100HP)
Turn 118, 730 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 27 (19/100HP)
Turn 118, 730 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 118, 730 BC: Fifth Element's Jigoro (Warrior) has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 118, 730 BC: While defending, your Jigoro has killed a Barbarian Warrior!
Here's a screenshot of what I was able to see in Izzy's lands before she kicked me out:
Note: no copper to be seen, nor are there any suspicious mines. However, I did not see her capital in the far north. Maybe Sweetacshon can scope out the city W of Osaka to see if she settled there for a reason!! If so, that could be our first city to attack...and soon.
I think we should also push out a quick workboat at Tokyo to explore the coastline. That will give us a much better idea of where we stand in the world.
I think we should plan on taking all of Izzy's cities and keeping them. They'll make up our core, and if we break them, we'll need fogbusters out the wazoo, which has already been mentioned before.
Keep in mind that the longer we wait to take on Izzy, the stronger she'll get.
I agree, let's attack Izzy ASA we'll have 7 or 8 Axes, 2 archers and 2 Spears (i see in a post a chariot is around) we must keep other 2 axes and some warrior/archer to barb watch.
Don't forget that when you capture a developed city, often you find all the buildings destroyed: sometime i found a bank and an observatory with lighthouse, forge, markets and so on destroyed (not to mention the "cultural buildings", destroyed by default)
Disagree about the wb to scout, better a galley and more better 2 coupled, but not so important for now.
Merum said:
Side note: Does anybody have warlords? I was playing the rise of Rome scenario last night and noticed that the Praetorians bring a cool little siege tower with them that you can see when they attack a city.
Yes, I suppose this happens when a unit has CR.
In addition all the combat animations are changed, more fun and perhaps more realistic.
More: "Fortune favors the bold" is my motto (Audaces Fortuna Iuvat [Latin])
Other notes:
Good idea the "binary research rate", it pays off (only remember to move the slider )
We'll need a double front attack: a stack for city W Osaka, a second stack for Seville, a pair of units to cover the river NW Osaka.
Good turnset yours too, Brian - (i guess we used Merit for Math, right?)
It seems we all agree about the research path now, resuming:
Sailing > IW > Myst > Poly (a bit more expensive than Medit, but perhaps better) > Priest and finally CoL
Okay, I'll play this in the next few hours, considering there's not too much to discuss. Plans:
Build army - 10 axe, 2 spear, 2 archer
Galleys in Kyoto and Tokyo - actuall, scratch that for Tokyo.
Techs sorted (have to remember to switch).
Kill barbs and take opportunities presented by Izzy. Too easy
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.
. We should probably have a medium research target of Optics so we can build some Caravels to scout as well as protect our archipeligo cities from barbs.
)
(i guess we used Merit for Math, right?)
