SGOTM 02 - Geezers

Sam_Yeager · Aug 27, 2006

Turn 0 -295 BC
Start worker in Kyoto and Barcelona. Start granaries in Tokyo and Osaka. MM Osaka for production. Looking at the production, or lack of it, in Tokyo I make a citizen specialist to speed the build. This impacts gold but I feel it is worth it. Courthouse rushed in Edo.
Turn 1 - 280 BC
Edo finishes courthouse and starts on queued warrior.
Turn 2 - 265 BC
Kill a barb axe.

IBT: The peace treaty with Izzy auto expires.

Turn 3 - 250 BC
Edo completes the warrior and I start it on a library. The Venerable Bede ranks all civs.

I wonder why Izzy's building up all that gold?
Turn 4 - 235 BC
Not a lot happens.
Turn 5 - 220 BC
Kill another barb axe.
Turn 6 - 205 BC
The barbs split their forces and head for the rice and gems mine. I push out a sacrificial warrior to distract the barb axe from the mine.
Turn 7 - 190 BC
The barb axe decides to attack Osaka and is dealt with by one of our warriors.
Turn 8 - 175 BC
Osaka finishes the granary. I decide that another axe is in order. MM Osaka for food. Kill a barb archer. Kyoto finishes the worker and resumes work on the queued workboat.

IBT: Barb warrior pillages rice farm. The Great Lighthouse is built in a foreign land.

Turn 9 - 160 BC
Kill barb warrior. Drop off worker by Tokyo.
Turn 10 - 145 BC
Worker starts pasture by Tokyo. I think about whipping the granary in Tokyo but decide I'll leave it for the next player to decide.

Turn log.

Spoiler :

klarius · Aug 27, 2006

Looks good :goodjob:

A bit of MM comments:
Edo should have build granary first (even before the, at that time, unnecessary warrior) and rush it at the first opportunity. This would have given the library faster. Now we are too far into the library, so we should rush it in 13 turns.

For sure Tokyo should rush the granary immediately. No use to let it go unhappy now first.
Note we should look now to generate unhappy population only if we have a project in mind to rush. The population will cost maintenance at this large distance from the capital. So if there is nothing coming up, we should use the no-growth button.
And please don't use citizens. The one shield is not worth the cost.

Please throw the steenkin' work boat out of the queue in Kyoto. We just put in overflow which will decay again.
At some time for big rushing projects (forge) it will need the granary. So putting shields in there is better.

For Osaka I would recommend to MM away from the gold. It shall grow now fast with the granary to size 7. Put the laborer either on the second cottage or gems.
When workers get available to cut trees, we should put the shields in a settler (one could also go to cut a forest to speed up the worker in Barcelona), but don't waste growth turns before size 7.

We soon have to decide what to research next. I would go for metal casting first to get forges going not construction for the miltary option. We first need to grow our capital and build a couple of settlers (the second may be chopped in the next town) for the strong locations. No time to build a lot of catapults and swords to go for Madrid.

When math comes in the Great Scientist will offer to research philosophy. I would do it, to get a religion in the Kyoto region.
But then our conversion to Judaism will bite us. The Taoist cities will not generate culture from the religion, which they would do, if we still would be no-state. The islands could also use the happy faces from Taoism as state religion, but I would not convert immediately, but wait at least until Barcelona gets it's second culture expansion.

Thrallia · Aug 28, 2006

Looks good to me, I'll probably grab it tomorrow afternoon..I'll wait for more comments until then.

Thrallia · Aug 29, 2006

Alright...this is my official got it...I should finish my turns tonight.

Thrallia · Aug 29, 2006

The Save

Turn 0: Send Swordsman S from Barcelona to see where Izzy has expanded to
Pop rush Granary in Tokyo and Kyoto.

Turn 1: Start cottage on Rice. Granary> Library in Tokyo, hits 3 pop
Granary>Work Boat in Kyoto-there's not really anything else to build there, and if we get Taoism somewhere over there, culture may grow fast enough that we can bridge the ocean with Kyoto's culture and explore with the work boat.

Turn 2: Scientist Spec in Kyoto

Turn 4: Mathematics > Alphabet
Axeman>Swordsman in Osaka

Turn 5: I find Izzy has another city south of the Jungle, near the desert Copper, but it is not yet hooked up.

Turn 6: GS discovers Philosophy and Taoism is founded in Edo. I pack the missionary on the galley to use in Kyoto and I revolt back to no religion for the extra culture and happiness

Turn 7: Barcelona culture boundaries expand.

Turn 8: Osaka's cultural boundaries expand.

Turn 9: Taoist Monastery rushed in Kyoto.

Turn 10: Nothing.

Notes:

Kyoto has 5 culture per turn now, that means that within 60 turns it should expand again and we'll be able to explore the landmass to the SE of our islands.
I rushed twice in Kyoto, so it is unfortunately unhappy, but will recover soon.
Tokyo is close to size 6, and can rush its Library then
Edo's boundaries expanded, and it can now use the Whales for faster growth, despite not being able to use them yet for fishing boats.
Alphabet will be researched in 13 turns, I think we should end the growth MM of Osaka and concentrate on building up some more swordsmen there so we can war Izzy again about that time. We need to keep her from connecting the desert copper, becauswe right now she has not copper access in her lower cities, therefore all she cans end at us are archers. We should send a couple axemen to Barcelona for defense, take out her lower cities, and then squeeze some techs out of her ine xchange for not killing Madrid.
After Alphabet, if Izzy doesn't have it, we should go for Monarchy to fix out happiness problems.

that's all I've got...klarius is up next, I believe.

Spoiler :

klarius · Aug 30, 2006

Got it and looked shortly in the save, before going to work.
I intend to play in the evening.

A few thoughts:

Growth in Osaka will continue for 3-4 more turns to size 7. Then I want to get out a settler soon for the horse sheep site.

No-state religion is good for culture, but not happiness.
A temple in Kyoto would have been more useful than the monastery. And rushing the granary now was really not necessary.

I don't think we should go for monarchy now. In the island cities we could only build warriors for happiness. We still need a lot other things. My take for next research is still metal casting. In fact I would have liked this before alphabet, to get forges up.

What is the goal in warring Izzy. The eastern towns, I don't see as big benefit. And for Madrid we need catapults. So I rather want to settle a useful city first.

Thrallia · Aug 30, 2006

The goal for warring Izzy is to keep her from getting her southern towns militarized. If she gets that copper mined, she'll be able to build axemen in all her cities, not just in Madrid...if we raze her southern towns(although her southernmost town might be where we were thinking of putting down a city) then she'll likely agree to peace fairly quickly, and we could get some techs from her. Then we can get to construction on our own pace before taking Madrid from her.

I don't propose keeping any of her southern cities, save the possibility of the one with the copper and stone in its radius. I just don't think we want her having the ability to defend with axemen in all her cities.

as for Metal Casting, you're right...we should get that before Monarchy...for some reason I didn't see it in the list when I was thinking of what to research next.

as for the monastery in Kyoto...for some reason I thought that you got the happiness for each religion if you were in no state religion...so I rushed the monastery for the science bonus before I realized that.

klarius · Aug 30, 2006

Well, I'm at work now and cannot look, but I don't think we block Izzy's coastal trade route. And I think the town to the east of Barcelona is coastal. So she could build maces there anyway (we know she can in Madrid).
On the other side AIs rarely do this in low production cities. They want 2 archers and then city improvements.
If we want to keep Barcelona in a war with Izzy we would need at least 2 shock maces there. At the same time we still have to defend against the Barbs. So I don't think a war soon is beneficial.
I still intend to build a settler before going all for military. The whole idea of the palace jump was to have good cities near Osaka.

markh · Aug 30, 2006

I have not checked the save, yet, but we should concentrate on building up our core. The price for just denying copper to her is too high and would set us back in the long run in my opinion.
As soon as we have 3 to 4 cities up we will be able to build up our military and go for her if we want to. We will have the much better spots with better production facilities.

klarius · Aug 30, 2006

Well nothing really happened. :crazyeye:

Turn log:

Turn 0 5 AD:
As I thought we aren't blocking the coastal route and the eastern city is definitely coastal. So I don't see what we would win by denying copper down here.
MM a little.

Turn 1 20AD:
Well, not really anything.

Turn 2 35AD:
The same.

Turn 3 50AD:
Rush library in Tokyo.

Turn 4 65AD:
Well, a lot happening

Worker completes in Barcelona->granary.
Useless work boat in Kyoto -> temple.
Library completes in Tokyo and there is nothing useful to build. I make a barracks in the hope that sometime we will rush a little military here.

Turn 5 80AD:
Barracks completes in Kyoto and I set it on aqueduct, though I don't see we need that anytime soon.
I also assign a scientist instead of the cow.
Izzy is showing a chariot from Madrid. It can go nowhere, so probably that's the beginning of the buildup for war.

Turn 6 95AD:
Osaka sword->settler.
Chariot stays just outside our culture.
Christianity is founded somewhere. Maybe Izzy.

Turn 7 110AD:
Chariot has left again.

Turn 8 125AD:
Edo rushes library.

Turn 9 140AD:
Edo library->granary.

Turn 10 155AD:
Alphabet is in -> metal casting.
As expected Izzy doesn't want to trade.
She also doesn't have much interesting. Hunting, polytheism and monarchy is all we see.
We know she has Monotheism and maybe she has Theology, but generally she's probably about as backwards as we are.

I continue here to the next even turn. It's anyway nothing happening and then we are pretty near to our settler.

Turn 11 170AD:
Nothing.

Turn 12 185AD:
The borders of Tokyo expand, which doesn't help us anything.

Turn 13 200AD:
Again nothing.

Osaka will complete the settler in 3 turns with the distant forest chop.
I chopped this forest, because I thought our next city shall go where the worker is.
I think Osaka can then go on military, while the next settler should be chopped at the new city (get one of the workers back from Barcelona).
Tokyo is on starvation on purpose. There's nothing we could rush currently and the food will suffice until one more citizen get's happy again. If necessary we can grow then rapidly without scientists.
Edo should rush the granary probably when it grows to size 3.
Kyoto is on medium speed growth to rush the temple @ size 6.

Roster:
klarius Played
trippstowe skipped until posts to be available
markh UP
juballs2001 On deck
Sam Yeager
Thrallia

Thrallia · Aug 31, 2006

Nice job.

I didn't realize Izzy's southern cities were coastal, although I probably should have figured something out since she doesn't seem in a hurry to connect that copper or stone...I definitely think another city or two will definitely be nice for taking the war to her, especially since there's so many forests that can be chopped to help build our armies

markh · Aug 31, 2006

Looks good. :goodjob:

I got it and will play this evening.

I agree to your suggested city site. Would have been my choice, too. After that I would place the next city between the wheat and the sheep in the SW.

Sam_Yeager · Aug 31, 2006

Bear in mind that we probably need some more military as we will have two cities to defend from the barbs. Perhaps it may be worth building one or two of them before the settler finishes?

klarius · Aug 31, 2006

Military should be OK.
There are still 2 axes and a sword around Osaka.
One Axe is on the designated city spot and another one is prebuild, ready to complete in Osaka, the turn after the settler.
Or in other words, I did this already

.

markh · Aug 31, 2006

Turn 0 : 200AD : looks good. Hit enter

IBT : a barb warrior appears in the sw

Turn 1 : 215AD : nothing

IBT : not much

Turn 2 : 230AD : still not much to do

IBT : Osaka : settler -> continues on axe

Turn 3 : 245AD : axe kills barb warrior

IBT : Osaka : axe -> sword

Turn 4 : 260AD : found Satsuma -> lib

IBT : nothing

Turn 5 : 275AD : not much

IBT : Taoism spreads in Tokyo

Turn 6 : 290AD : zzz

IBT : a barb warrior appears W of Satsuma

Turn 7 : 305AD : zzz

IBT : Osaka : sword -> axe

Turn 8 : 320AD : axe kills barb warrior
rush Taoist Temple in Kyoto

IBT : Kyoto : Taoist Temple -> research

Turn 9 : 335AD : nothing

IBT : nothing

Turn 10 : 350AD : nothing

After the axe completed in Osaka we can build a Temple which would complete exactly when Osaka grows and will keep it happy. An aqueduct would be nice also in Osaka. Militaryly it looks good. The barbs are not very active. I think they founded towns in the south and send what ever they produce there. When the worker at Satsuma is ready with the horses he should go chopping a settler in Satsuma.

I put Kyoto on research as there is nothing useful to build I think and I put it on avoid growth.

A pic for you guys.

Roster :

klarius
trippstowe skipped until posts to be available
markh played
juballs2001 up
Sam Yeager on deck
Thrallia

Sam_Yeager · Aug 31, 2006

Well it looks as though we're finally starting to get a reasonable economy and the research rate is better. So where do we want to go from here?

Learn Construction and attack Izzy? Go for Currency and possibly then Compass and Optics to find out what's out there? Go for Monarchy, and maybe Feudalism, and then Construction to attack or maybe something else altogether? Perhaps we should just concentrate on continuing to build up the core and ignore Izzy?

I think going for Currency before attacking is not a bad idea. Getting Optics is also rather desirable.

Thrallia · Aug 31, 2006

How long would construction cost to get right now? I think once we get our next city up we should definitely move forward with the Spanish War. If everyone else agrees, then perhaps we should go construction next so that when it finishes, we've got all the troops we may need and will only need to rush/chop some catapults and destroy her.

edit: if we are going to continue building our empire first, I'd suggest then that we research currency then towards CS and Machinery.

klarius · Sep 1, 2006

I think we should research construction now (to have some cats available, when needed), then machinery.
If nobody has found us by then research compass and lightbulb optics with a scientist. I hope that we later can buy CS. We have philosophy as trade bait, which probably nobody will research, now the religion is gone.

The happy build in Osaka should be a forge already. It gives two happy faces (gold and gems).
Kyoto and Tokyo also should rush forges soon for the more effective rushing and to be able to use an engineer.
Edo will need to hand-build most of it's forge.
In Tokyo it's probably more effective to rush a temple first, so we can get enough population to rush. Anyway I think Tokyo should grow some rush material now. But don't rush the aqueduct - better throw it out of the queue.

We need to get rice back online for health. Either in Barcelona or irrigate over the cottage near Osaka. When we then get a wheat town up, we should be fine with health w/o the need of an aqueduct in Osaka.

I would send now some swords down south, to look if there is a barb town to capture. And generally we should now be able to spare some troops to scout our island some more, while they seek promotion on barbs.

Seeing how much work there is to do, it might be better to chop a worker first in Sapporo. But we could also look, if we can get some workers from Izzy. :devil:

That would be in a small campaign soon, not the final push already. But note there will be a considerable attack on Barcelona from axes and chariots. Still with 40% cultural defense and no catapults on her side, 3 strong units should be able to deal with it.

One idea that just comes to my mind. We should gift CoL to Izzy, so she can build courthouses. We will anyway not trade with her soon (ever?). While she builds courthouses she doesn't build military and we may get them later.

Sam_Yeager · Sep 1, 2006

klarius said:
One idea that just comes to my mind. We should gift CoL to Izzy, so she can build courthouses. We will anyway not trade with her soon (ever?). While she builds courthouses she doesn't build military and we may get them later.

I believe that the AI won't trade unless they know at least two other civs. Whether or not this affects gifts is another matter. Probably not.

klarius · Sep 1, 2006

You can gift whatever you want.
And BTW soon Izzy will probably start to demand techs. That's one of the downside of having alphabet.
For sure she will not trade before she knows somebody else. And this is then probably in the age of caravels, where we will get more and better trading partners.
The only way we will get something out of her is by war and peace treaty. And we really need to hurt her a lot, if we want anything better than hunting. So that's probably only when we are able to get her down to 1 city and then give her 10 turns before we take her out.

Overall it will not help us that we have CoL over her, so we could as well gift it for the courthouses.

SGOTM 02 - Geezers

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