SGOTM 02 - Geezers

klarius · Sep 20, 2006

Well, I would say it's more important to start to transport units than to build

(which is also important).
We would have enough cats and Samurai to attack a big city, if they were available in one stack.
But they are distributed on the islands or sitting idly in Osaka and the other now pretty safe cities.

From the diplomacy situation it would be best to start with Huyana, where we maybe could get an ally. But he is pretty difficult to reach. And I still like the thought to attack Mansa to slow down the tech speed.
I don't think that taking the nearest target (Egypt) w/o considering other factors is the fastest way to conquest.

Sam_Yeager · Sep 20, 2006

I have now realised that Mansa is the one next to Bismarck rather than Huayna so I would support attacking Mansa first. The problem with Huayna is that he is the most powerful civ and I think that we would just get bogged down at this stage. Especially since our military is still a bit light.

If we really want to start at one end then Mao would be a good candidate as he is never going to like us.

Sam_Yeager · Sep 20, 2006

markh said:
What happened to the scientist we had in Kyoto ?

He's still there. He'll help us towards Education but since I wasn't sure if we were going down that route I left him alone.

Thrallia · Sep 20, 2006

Turn 0: Started all troops moving toward Nara for transport over to the Doughnut

Turn 1: Madrid Galleon>Galleon

Turn 2: Magyar Courthouse>Theater, Osaka Samurai>Samurai
Mansa built a city S of Satsuma on the coast, it has 2 LB in it and Huayna has a settler and 2 LB sitting there as well

Turn 3: Hatty now has a galleon with a settler, worker, and LB next to Nagoya
Snapshots of Mansa's defense in his cities are taken, I think that we could probably take him as soon as the units we've got built right now are across the sea

Turn 4: Tokyo Galleon>Catapult, Nagoya Theater>Barracks
More snapshots of Mansa's defense. He only has one city with more than 3 defenders in it, We've definitely got enough offense to take him on

Turn 5: Osaka Samurai>Samurai

Turn 6: Edo Catapult>Catapult

Turn 7: Kyoto Galleon>Catapult, Osaka Samurai>Samurai
Hatty builds city S of Satsuma, where we razed a Spanish city way back in our second war with them

Turn 8: Mansa has Military Tradition, Hatty has Chemistry

Turn 9: Ferrying troops around

Turn 10: Osaka Samurai>Samurai, Satsuma Samurai>Samurai, Nagoya Barracks>Courthouse(change if you like, there's nothing put into it yet)

Notes:
3 Samurai, 9 catapults have been ferried to German lands so far, I was moving the Samurai toward Malinese lands because he looks to be a ripe target, plus we don't want him to get a chance to train cavalry or trade MT.

I also started to send the two galleons built in our Island Empire toward Nara to help ferry troops, I got all our cats out and in Germany first, and I think our galley is fine for the units being produced(plus it can be upgraded if needed).

I assumed that the reason science was at 0% was to do the 0%-100% science wavering, so I did that, but as I moved troops out costs/income ratios decreased in favor of costs, so by the end of my turnset it was 0%-90% wavering, and at 100% science we are 6 turns from Chemistry. at a standard rate of 40% we are 14 turns from Chemistry, which means we might want to just stay at that, so we have the cash to upgrade some troops as soon as Chemistry is researched.

Here's the screenshots of each Malinese city's defense. I had some technical issues for Awdaghost's defense, so all I have there is a list of the units in the city...The others show the city and the unit list.

Walata:

Awdaghost:

Djenne:

Gao:

Kumbi Saleh:

Niani:

Timbuktu:

klarius · Sep 21, 2006

I had a short look in the save before going to work.
This will get difficult :eek:

.
We are in no shape to stand an AI dog pile, so we need a strong ally.
But even a single war may cost us our fishing nets on the islands, if we don't have ships to defend.

Our chance for an ally is Bismarck who probably will declare on Mansa for a tech, after we declare. But that has to come very soon, so we still have a tech on him.
Another danger is that Mansa will probably get liberalism soon. If he goes free religion, everybody will be his buddy.
Huayna is already in free religion and has good relations with everybody. He also might acquire military tradition any turn now and will then upgrade all his horse units.
We stand no chance for an successful war against him soon (his knights could already eat everything we throw at him on approach).
There is still the danger that Mansa will pull in Huayna and then we will also not make much progress in Mali, because the Inca horse units will threaten our attackers.
Still, if we don't take on Mali now, we will further fall back in tech and winning this game at all will become a problem :eek:

.
Another thing we urgently need is FP on one of our islands. Otherwise new acquisitions will drag down our economy too much. I will look to get it started and put as much whip overflow in it as possible, to get it in a decent time. Generally there will be a lot whipping going on on the islands to get some needed units.

BTW, I think it was a mistake that we didn't trade education, when we had the chance. Not that we need education urgently, but after this is out of the way the scientists will go for printing press, which we will need on the way to rifling.

klarius · Sep 21, 2006

Well, it doesn't look like our missing members will turn up anytime soon.
So, I got it.
Expect the worst

. This might get hairy.

klarius · Sep 21, 2006

Well, played, put a dent into Mansa, but we are falling more behind in tech.
Samurai are performing fine, but they are so slooow.

Turn Log:

Turn 0 1490:

I want the FP to get underway. Check our islands....
Tokyo will go for it by building 14h for cats then rush 1 pop for max use of pop-rush bug. This should give 42 hammers overflow.
Kyoto will pop more expensive units.
Edo will grow now first. Then it will go to engineer and priest to make optimal use of forge (10h).
Maybe I alternate between this setup and no specialists to still grow some.
Anyways, I will seriously get into MM.

Check other cities. Rush Madrid. City is w/o pop-rush unhappiness and near a sweet spot breakpoint for rushing - get 88h for 1 pop (instead of the fair 55h).

I rush the theater in Magyar, though it would complete anyway.
But the overflow will give me a badly needed work boat right away next turn.

Barcelona has no-growth set for no good reason. Off.

Searching our caravels. We need barb defense for fishing nets.
There is already a net missing in Madrid.

Turn 1 1496:
Had forgotten to check trades.
Deer to Germany for Dyes.
Sheep to Hatty for 7gpt.

Perform a few rushes. Move a few troops. Upgrade galley to galleon.

Turn 2 1502:
MM and moves.

Turn 3 1508:
MM and moves.

Turn 4 1514:
Take a deep breath and declare on Mansa.
Ally Bismarck for astronomy. He throws in 160g and WM.
Capture Awdaghost at the loss of one suicide cat. A horsehockey city, but only a gateway.
I had hoped I could gift it to someone neutral to have a safe spot, but Hatty is not interested.
I keep it for the moment, but may later gift it to Bismarck.

Turn 5 1520:
Moving, MM.

Turn 6 1523:
The same. Still no counter.

Turn 7 1526:
Capture Kumbi Saleh with no losses. Now that would be a nice city.
Kong Miao for 18gpt. Academy, Observatory, Lighthouse. But we need to get rid of the culture around.
In other news: Bismarck is showing rifles.

Turn 8 1529:
Moving, MM.

Turn 9 1532:
Now the counter. 2 cavs take back Kumbi Saleh from a Samurai and a cat.
A cat and a Samurai lost on retaking.
No big problem but I have to delay the march on Timbuktu.

Turn 10 1535:
Capture Walata at the loss of one Samurai and one catapult.
MM a little.

You should continue the building of FP in Tokyo with pop-rush overflow. We really need it soon.
Build FP now for 1 turn. Then catapult for 2 turns and rush. Then again FP 1 turn.
Next military target should be Timbuktu (we need to get rid of it's culture boundary). Then we might want to consolidate our gains.
As feared we are getting more and more behind in tech, with several civs having MT and chemistry and Bismarck showing rifles.

markh · Sep 22, 2006

So, the real action started ? :eek:

I will take it tonight and see what I can achieve.

Thrallia · Sep 22, 2006

ouch, rifles and cavs will make things much more difficult. Looks good on the war front, I just wish we could somehow up our science to keep pace with the AIs

Sam_Yeager · Sep 22, 2006

I can understand why we stripped our cities of miliary for the invasion force. However we should look at upping our military in the cities to deter invaders. Mao has increased his power quite a lot and we don't want him getting ideas about our islands. Killing off Mansa's cities on our home land is quite a good idea too.

That said, I support the idea of doing as much damage to Mansas core cities as soon as possible. That means we probably have to concentrate our military there in the short term.

EDIT: Given that it looks like we will have to pause for a while we should try and extort some techs from Mansa before we wipe him out.

klarius · Sep 22, 2006

One problem is also how we want to continue with research.
I don't expect to get much from Mansa. Even when a civ is in the ropes getting these expensive techs isn't easy.
Chemistry will complete in the next turn set. Research is now at 0, but it's not that far if we dial it up again.

The problem with invasions could be dealt with frigates for some time. That's much more efficient than killing stacks of landed rifles and cavs. So we should build a bunch when we get chemistry.
But what do we want as attackers. Grenadiers are fine for rifles, but will have heavy losses against cav especially on the approach. Rifles are quite a bit away, by the time we will get them we may face machine guns or infantry.
So I don't see we have a real chance by getting good enough tech, we have to overwhelm them by numbers. Siege weapons will be important as we will face many uphill battles, so steel for cannons would be nice. With cannons one gets much more frequently the chance for easy battles for promotions then with cats.
But cavs, to take out opponent cavs would also come in handy.

markh · Sep 22, 2006

This surely was not one of my best turnsets. I am quite unsatisfied with it. A good thing is that klarius broke the back of Mansa, otherwise I think I would have spoiled the game.

0) 1535AD : hit enter

IBT : a Malinese frigate sinks one of our galleon
Barcelona : pikeman -> samurai

1) 1538AD : moving units

IBT : Osaka : samurai -> knight
Madrid : theatre -> knight

2) 1541AD : bomb Timbuktu down to 0%, but too many defenders to start an attack

IBT : Edo : pike -> galleon
Magyar : granary -> forge
Kumbi Saleh : courthouse

3) 1544AD : found Izumo : rax

IBT : chemistry is in -> military tradition
Osaka : knight -> grenadier
Satsuma : samurai -> grenadier

4) 1547AD : moving untis

IBT : nothing

5) 1550AD : moving units

IBT : Walata : theatre -> cat

6) 1553AD : take Tadmekka without losses

IBT : German revolt in Walata

7) 1556AD : take Niani without losses

IBT : Kyoto : samurai -> galleon
Osaka : grenadier -> observatory
Kagoshima : samurai -> lib

8) 1559AD : moving units

IBT : Seville : forge -> frigate
Tadmekka : galleon
Malinese revolt in Kumbi Saleh

9) 1562AD : moving units

IBT : Madrid : knight -> observatory
Nara : forge -> frigate

10) 1565AD : moving units

military tradition is far, far ahead, but I think we are set for the moment.

markh · Sep 23, 2006

Mansa has moved two filled galleons out of Timbuktu, so the defenses are mucher lighter there now and we should be able to take it. Hopefully he sends these units to Bismarck and not to our island cities.

Sam_Yeager · Sep 23, 2006

markh said:
Mansa has moved two filled galleons out of Timbuktu, so the defenses are mucher lighter there now and we should be able to take it. Hopefully he sends these units to Bismarck and not to our island cities.

'Hopefully' is the word! It looks like we are going to have to upgrade our Samurai to Grenadiers in the near future. Equally it looks as though we are going to have to beef up our seaborne defences.

As both klarius and markh have said our tech is slipping. The question is whether we look to pause before finishing off Mansa and concentrate on tech or do we try and finish off Mansa and then try and increase our research.

EDIT: I shall not be playing before this evening at the earliest, possibly tomorrow morning, so there is plenty of time to give me advice.

markh · Sep 23, 2006

We should continue the attack on Mansa. We have now a considerable force in his territory and these should be enough to crush him. If we do not do it Bismarck will do it and we do not want Bismarck to get even stronger now.

Sam_Yeager · Sep 24, 2006

Turn 0 -1565 AD
Change Tadmekka build to a theatre instead of a galleon so that it can expand. Not quite sure why we bothered keeping this city. I suppose it's cheaper than building a settler but that's about it.

IBT:
Mansa's forces land by Kumbi Saleh.

Turn 1 - 1568 AD
Reinforce Kumbi Saleh forces with a Samurai. Take Timbuktu for the loss of two cats and a Samurai. Rush Observatory in Osaka.

IBT:
Kumbi Saleh defences hold against Mansa. The rest of Mansa's forces recapture Awdaghost.

Turn 2 - 1571 AD
Osaka starts a Knight. Nagoya completes a granary and starts a courthouse. Lavoisier (GS) born in Tokyo. Rush frigate in Seville

Turn 3 - 1574 AD
Osaka completes Knight and starts a grenadier. Tokyo completes the Forbidden Palace and starts on a longbow. Seville starts a harbour. The frigate heads towards Kyoto. The trouble with bribed allies is that they don't always stay bribed.

Mansa's navy starts destroying our fishing nets.

Turn 4 - 1577 AD
Niani comes out of revolt and I rush a lighthouse.

Turn 5 - 1580 AD
Niani completes lighthouse and starts a barracks.

Turn 6 - 1583 AD
After healing our forces move towards Djenne. Rush grenadier in Barcelona. Rush library in Kagoshima.

Turn 7 - 1586 AD
Osaka completes a grenadier and starts a bank. Start temple in Barcelona as it is suffering badly from WW. Satsuma completes a grenadier and starts a longbow. Kagoshima completes the library and starts a cat. Rush observatory in Madrid. Pillage Mansa's horses. Start researching Military Tradition.

Turn 8 - 1589 AD
Huayna offers Printing Press for Chemistry + 120 gold. I am not keen on bolstering our next victims's defences so I decline. We were still up Chemistry with Huayna at the end of my turns so the trade can still be made if the team wants it. Madrid starts a frigate. Kagoshima starts an observatory. Destroy Mansa's frigate by Edo. Another of Mansa's frigates appears near Barcelona. Take Djenne for the loss of a cat.

Turn 9 - 1592 AD
Maygar completes a forge and starts a library. Destroy a galleon by Edo. Timuktu comes out of resistance and I rush a granary. Move forces towards Gao.

Turn 10 - 1595 AD
Nara completes a frigate and starts a longbow. The frigate heads north towards Barcelona. Seville completes the harbour and starts an observatory. Izumo completes a barracks and starts a granary. Timbuktu starts a theatre. Military Tradition should be known in 5 turns. Mansa looks to be down to the following 3 cities:

Spoiler :

markh · Sep 25, 2006

Sam_Yeager said:
Not quite sure why we bothered keeping this city. I suppose it's cheaper than building a settler but that's about it.

Huayna has a settler there and I wanted to avoid giving him another city on our island.

Well done, Sam. :goodjob:

Roster :

Sam Yeager - just played
Thrallia - up
klarius - on deck
markh
trippstowe and juballs on automatic skip until they post to be available again.

klarius · Sep 25, 2006

If we can still get printing press, we should IMO.
Keeping a tech away, which is known to most civs isn't doing much good. And printing press is on the way to rifles, which we will probably need sooner or later.

We should now also really think what we want to do with the Great people we are collecting. Scientists will want to research scientific method after we acquire printing press.
Not really on the path we like, but maybe that would fetch military techs from our friends.

markh · Sep 25, 2006

Printing press would be nice as it increases commerce.

Sam_Yeager · Sep 25, 2006

klarius said:
If we can still get printing press, we should IMO.
Keeping a tech away, which is known to most civs isn't doing much good. And printing press is on the way to rifles, which we will probably need sooner or later.

We should now also really think what we want to do with the Great people we are collecting. Scientists will want to research scientific method after we acquire printing press.
Not really on the path we like, but maybe that would fetch military techs from our friends.

Judging by where the AI currently is it looks as though we are either going to have to build enormous quantities of grenadiers/rifles and cavalry or else move up to infantry and cannons. Frankly I suspect that we are likely to find the AI with coal, if not oil, and steel. Mao has already built the Kremlin.

I tried to do a bit of builder stuff during my turn but I think we need rather more. We also need to address war weariness.

SGOTM 02 - Geezers

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