SGOTM 02 - Team CFR

[AlanH]

Welcome to your C_IV SGOTM 2 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

This game will be played in Civ4, patched to v1.61.

You are cast in the role of Tokugawa, mighty leader of the Japanese. Tokugawa's brother has left the island city of Kyoto to avenge the death of his wife and only son. He has travelled to a distant land without finding their murderer. So the brother of Tokugawa will settle and found a new Japanese colony, and the Japanese have sworn to conquer the rest of civilization in order to hunt down and destroy their enemy.

The game is on a Standard size fractal map, modified as only Gyathaar knows how, at Epic speed. All victory conditions are enabled, but the laurels for this contest will be awarded to the fastest teams to achieve a Conquest victory. The number of AI rivals has not yet been revealed. It will be played using version 1.61 of Civ4 with locked modified assets.

Individual start files for all teams will be available on the SGOTM Progress and Results Page at midnight, server local time, at the start of August 8th.

Here's the start position.

Map Parameters
Playable Civ - Tokugawa of Japan
World size - Standard
Difficulty - Monarch
Landform - Fractal, hand modified
Game Speed - Epic
AI Aggression - YES!
Barbarians - Raging!!

Please visit the following link to ensure that you are adequately prepared:
Civ4 SGOTM reference thread

Notes:

A. ONLY Civilization IV v1.61 is supported for this SGOTM. All teams will compete for up to four awards - the Gold, Silver and Bronze Laurels for the fastest finishes, and the Wooden Spoons for the lowest scoring finisher.

B. All teams must play the sponsored variant - victory will be awarded for the fastest victory by Conquest.

C. All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.

I'm sure you'll enjoy this game

 

[Obormot]

Checking in.

I'll try to make a summary of our discussion at CFR and post it here today.

 

[Ptitsa Consul]

Hi, gues

I'm glad to play with you again!
Mr. Captain, what is our turns order?

 

[IL2T]

I'm here!

 

[Dynamic]

Checking in.

 

[Cat Behemoth]

I'll try to use my usual avatar. Hope it helps me to play better.

 

[akots]

Checking in. I will be out of town for next 3 days but will be probably able to check the forum from time to time provided that there is some sort of net access in a motel.

I'm still really puzzled about what to do and how to start. So, I guess, it is not me who is going to play the first turns.

 

[Balbes]

Balbes reporting.

I'm available to play any time in August, though I believe the very first turnset should be trusted to one of our more experienced players.

 

[Lexad]

Lexad here.

As I said, I'll come back on 13th of August, so toss me somewhere relevant in the line.

Continuing our CFR discussion, I agree with Obormot's tech plan (Polytheism-Bronze-Oracle CS to CoL. Meanwhile our second city will build warriors which would be sufficient to repel early barb raids.

I also think capital should build couple o' boats - first for food, second for scouting north land. If we have excess food we can build settlers/workers for further expansion North after we get Sailing. Also fast bronze and writing would allow us to pop-rush Library and stuff excess citizens there, thus speeding science significantly.

 

[Obormot]

OK, here is a summary of our discussion at CFR.

Pixel counting revealed that the settler is located 36 tiles east and 6 tiles south of the capital. If we settle 1NW, maintenance will be 7 coins at size 1, plus approximately 1 coin for each extra citizen.

To protect the second city from raging barbarians we need to pump out several warriors and fortify them on hills around the city. Later we might need archery, but hopefully we can survive without archery long enough to research other important techs before it.

An early religion will be much more usefull then usual, because we will also get a free border expansion for our second city. The chances of getting hinduism are not very high, propably somewhere around 50% because of the slow science, but we don't really loose anything if we fail because we will have to go meditation->priesthood->polytheism path sooner or later and there is no really urgent techs for us to research. We will propably want to get BW too for whipping, chopping and to know where copper is. After that we go for writing and try to get CoL with the Oracle to be able to build courthouses which will be essential for an empire with 2 centers. Depending on how active the barbarians are (and that depends on the shape of the map a lot) we may slot in archery somewhere.

The starting spot is very poor for us because we won't have any culture for quite some time and won't be able to grab any resources inside our borders. So in the beginning of the game some scouting to find a better spot is justified. Delaying founding the second city will also speed up our science rate. We may look for a better place for about 5 turns or so, then we settle at the best place we find.

The capital should obviously build work boats for food and exploration (fog gazing showed that there is land in the north).

 

[Cat Behemoth]

but we don't really loose anything if we fail because we will have to go meditation->priesthood->polytheism path sooner or later and there is no really urgent techs for us to research.

I don't think so. We can lose much time to teach bronze. So, I think that if we go for religion we have NOT need to found second city until we or somebody get it.

In my opinion - religion is good, but too problematic. So I prefer to go for bronze or archery immediately after Mysticism. In other way we'll get a good defensive units too late to successfully defend against barbarians.

 

[Balbes]

Great summaries, Lexad, Obormot. I think whoever goes first has their work clearly outlined. But some finesse will be required to implement the plan perfectly and pull ahead of the other teams.

 

[Obormot]

I don't thinl so. We can lose much time to teach bronze. So, I think that if we go for religion we have NOT need to found second city until we or somebody get it.

In my opinion - religion is good, but too problematic. So I prefer to go for bronze or archery immediately after Mysticism. In other way we'll get a good defensive units too late to successfully defend against barbarians.

I don't think that delaying bronze actually hurts us as much as you say. First of all we won't have an opportunity to build a worker for quite some time, because we will be busy looking for a better place to settle and then pumping out warriors to fogbust. No worker means no chopping. Pop rushing in the capital may be handy, but there won't really be any usefull things to poprush if we beeline to bronze as you suggest.

Now, even if we can chop some forest earlier then we would have chopped with a religion start, it is still not a big deal because propably won't be expanding for quite some time and the forest around the second city will be chopped sooner or later anyway.

Going straight for archery is not a good idea too, because we can protect the city with just warriors in the beginning. Let us first take a look at the land around us and if there is a lot of free space for barbs to spawn we can switch to hunting/archery anytime we like.

Remember also that even if we don't go for a religion we still need mysticism for an obelisk (or maybe even Stonehenge).


I think that the first player should stop after those 5 turns of exploration (or if he finds a great city site earlier) and post a screenshot for further discussion. Lets not hurry, maybe we should use full three month now instead of playing 1.5 month and 1.5 month waiting.

 

[Balbes]

To reiterate a few of the other points,

For the time being we're aiming at the CoL slingshot instead of CS. Early Bureaucracy isn't as useful in this game because our capital has pitiful hammer prouction and isn't exactly a commerce powerhouse either. On the other hand, we want those courtouses up and running ASAP, and we're at least guaranteed Confucianism if we miss Hinduism due to the slow initial research rate.

We're going to need some means of border expansion for the colonial cities. Ideally, Hinduism will emerge in our 2nd city and spread in the vicinity. If we locate stone, Stonehenge is an alternative. Failing all that, we may have to resort to obelisks. The next culture-generating building is the somewhat expensive library up the tech tree.

 

[Obormot]

Actually CS slingshot is pretty much impossible with this setup. Even CoL slinshot is not guranteed, in my test games the science rate was painfully slow, I could only reach writing at 800BC or so. I did manage to build the Oracle on time 3 times out of 3 though, It seems that the AI are also slowed down by the raging barbs.

If we do found an early religion, an alternative might be to attempt Alphabet slingshot and take CoL with a GP.

 

[Balbes]

but we don't really loose anything if we fail because we will have to go meditation->priesthood->polytheism path sooner or later

Surely you mean Mysticism->Polytheism->Priesthood? We don't want to unlock Meditation!

 

[Obormot]

You are right of course, I meant polytheism.

 

[Cat Behemoth]

Remember also that even if we don't go for a religion we still need mysticism for an obelisk (or maybe even Stonehenge).


I think that the first player should stop after those 5 turns of exploration (or if he finds a great city site earlier) and post a screenshot for further discussion. Lets not hurry, maybe we should use full three month now instead of playing 1.5 month and 1.5 month waiting.

Yes Mysticizm is needed, but after it we have to think a lot. Completely agree that Meditation is useless and that we have to discuss further plans after 5-6 turns before founding a new city.

PS. May be Stonehenge is better idea than religion?

 

[Obormot]

It is too hard to tell now. Let us find a spot for our city and then decide. But we should start with mysticism because it is usefull in almost any case and preserves all the options.

 

[Ptitsa Consul]

So, as I've understood you, our first actions are:

- continental colonists walks some turns (~5 or less if we'll see more useful & intersting place)
- capital builds sequence of boats - first for fishing, next for recon...
- our first tech is Mysticism.
- continental city builds more Warriors for defending against barbs.