SGOTM 02 - VQ Black

[pigswill]

I have been thinking about this (as indeed have we all) and I have reached some fairly strong opinions.
i) Osaka should be the superscience city; keep it in bureaucracy, academy, science specialists if available, every research/health/happy multiplier available. Never ever whip in Osaka (if its our last surviving city then its a bit pointless by then). Osaka is the only city with cottages and it should have as many as possible.
ii) FP in Kyoto asap.
iii) Need high food coastal city to locate HE; coz we're going to have to build a navy in a hurry. If we get to globe theatre then put it in the same city.
iv) Do not build any military units in Hokkiado until we're within 10 turns of astronomy. We can whip them out fast enough and they're a drain on our economy (1gpt/unit!).
v) Get a couple more cities (and barb city) in Hokkiado, extra whipping material when required. While waiting for astronomy build money multipliers in shrine cities, missionaries for shrine religions; whipping builds in all cities (granary, barracks, forge, courthouse).
vi) Ship units from BT towards first enemy, probably mansa and start war asap.

 

[namliaM]

1. About Osaka -

The move of the palace was good I think, gave us a nice boost. But now... I dont know...
*goes looking for own previous post*
Found it
Guilds (2242) => Gunpowder (2691) => Engineering (2242) => Chemistry (4036) = 11211
Assuming we can trade for Guilds and Engineering, that leaves 6700 beakers.
At our current rate of 123 beakers... Thats 60 turns... How much can we build in 60 turns?

2. Heroic Epic -

Good idea... Where? and how soon can we have it operational?

3. Our plan to conquer the world with samurais - .... The best I see is we take out two or three civs and then we better think about something else.

Which is why we keep heading for Chemistry (Grenadiers). I still feel tho that we can rule the world with Samurais, LBs, Crossbows and lets not forget catapults.

The turns lost ... corporation ... not saying lets beeline to these techs (we need to beeline the military techs)

)Bolding by me, hope you dont mind
OK this makes much more sence.... Supposing we can spare a military tech to our soon to be enemy
And its not the turns I am worried about, its the Beakers which could be gold for upgrading any and all Samurais...
Options are allways good... Still to build Wall street we still need 6 banks and Wall Street itself... 2700 hammers...

The way I see it ... rifleman and calvaries and then stop research.

Could you elaborate on that? Why Cavalries and Rifles? What do they give use that we dont allready have???

Edit: I only did read Eektors post have to run right now... more later this evening I hope...

 

[pigswill]

I am seriously cross with myself for overlooking something that seems obvious in retrospect. FP in Edo/Kogishami; Kyoto gets HE+Globe+massive food and superwhipping city in the midddle of enemy territory

 

[eektor]

Could you elaborate on that? Why Cavalries and Rifles? What do they give use that we dont allready have???

Because by the time we get to Mao or whoever we save for last we are going to need them.

 

[LuvToBuild]

I am seriously cross with myself for overlooking something that seems obvious in retrospect. FP in Edo/Kogishami; Kyoto gets HE+Globe+massive food and superwhipping city in the midddle of enemy territory

I'm thinking the same thing. I would think that HE would give us nearly twice as many units with each whip using namliaM's method. The globe would mean we could do that without any concern for the whipping unhappiness. I'm not sure how the math works out though. It kind of seems that it would work that way maybe I'm wrong. With Timbuktu and iron, we could be whipping a lot of Samurai in Kyoto and wouldn't need as many turns to transport them either. With Galleons, we could probably move them over about as fast as we could whip them.

 

[bobrath]

yes... until we run out of citizens!

 

[LuvToBuild]

WOW !!! I was playing around in World Builder trying to get a feel for this whipping business. I started a small all grass scenario and converted it to all water. I tried to simulate Kyoto to get an idea of what we might could expect from an HE/Globe Theatre combination. I threw down a city with iron under it and within coastal reach of the simulated Kyoto so I could build Samurai. I was able to get a Samurai about every other turn, without any unhappiness. That's a hell of a lot of butt kicking ability. One problem though, we have to get enough theatres in Hokkaido to make the Globe available soon. In the meantime, we can be kicking Mansa butt and building the HE, maybe a couple more galleys to upgrade to Galleons.

 

[pigswill]

Well I quite like my plan (#361 modified by #363) but I'd like to hear from the rest of the team and maybe I'd volunteer Captain Bobrath to draft the New Team Policy before playing on. I'd rather we waited a few days and played on harmoniously (well fairly) than just rushing it at this point.

 

[namliaM]

Originally Posted by namliaM
Could you elaborate on that? Why Cavalries and Rifles? What do they give use that we dont allready have???

Because by the time we get to Mao or whoever we save for last we are going to need them.

Seriously WHY? Grenadiers are strength 12, Rifles 14.
Grenadiers would be seriously upgraded becuase of promotions, the riffles would start again at 0. After we get Grenadiers I would like to run 0% Science for a (long) while... Why? To upgrade tons of Samurais to Grenadiers.

I could see the point for MT, but if we want MT we should beeline that now and go for Chemistry later. Again Cavs are strength 15 but start at 0 promotions and we have to hand build them. Maybe we can upgrade some Knights... But I think it would be far more efficient to beeline Chemistry...
We get Frigates
We can upgrade massive amounts of Samurais....
Unless offcourse we decide we dont need much Samurais and decide Knights are better. We would miss out on Frigates, but have massive amounts of Knights to upgrade...
Knights IMHO have their place but not in this game, cause they dont get CR promotions and they dont get the free combat 1.
CR3, Combat1 Samurai: 8 + 75% CR + 10% Gunpowder + 10% C1 = 15.6
Edit: 14.8 vs non gunpowder units.
Combat 3 Knight: 10 + 30% = 13
Sure we can use some knights and some non CR samurais for the open field... But the bulk of our force will be used to attack cities I think.

Edit2: And a knight has a specific defender (Pike) which is allready available to all AI at strength 6 + 100% Knights are easy pray...

I will try and setup a test today and see what we can do to make whipping as efficient as possible... But a Samurai every 3 turn... thats way good for no HE and having that bonus in say Osaka.... which is actually producing/hammering these samurais.

Why are "you all" so hell bend on raising science? I think we all agree that at one point we will stop research.
I think Chemistry maybe Steel. Riffles/Cavs have been suggested....
Thats not to many beakers left to invest...

 

[namliaM]

Whipping every turn is not smart in general cause you get a penalty for whipping from 0 production. + to let the overflow go somewhere we have to skip 1 turn atleast, so that would make it every other turn?

Samurais are 105 hammers....
Kyoto produces 5 hammers/turn.
after 1 turn 100 hammers left.
2*45 (2 pop whipped, yeah I know hang with me) + 25% = 112 so only 2 pop
We get however 3*45 due to the whip "bonus"
This means we put 135 + 5 (1st turn) + 5 (second turn) = 145 into the samurai

This would generate 40 overflow into the next samurai which has now 40 +5 = 45 production 60 left
1 more turn +5 hammers, 55 left... Now under the magic 56... Whip, get 90 hammers Putting again 145 hammers into the samurai.

So without HE we can whip a samurai every 3 turns...
Turn 1 overflow + production
Turn 2 Production
Turn 3 Whip
Whip 5 times in 15 turns, total of -5

and we can do this till the end of time, with + 14 food...
It takes 25 food (with a Granary) to grow from 5 to 6, so we could easily sustain a pop of 7 running an engineer and 2 scientists while whipping a Samurai every 3 turns.

This without Globe and HE for which we need to find 750 hammers...
Kyoto now has a (natural) cap of 5 (4 + 1 from the whale) we will get +5 again with Astronomy, cause of the lux from Hokkaido. thats 10.
7 unhappy from size 7 + 5 from the whip is 12. So we garison 2 units and we can do this easy.

I think Globe is best when you go for a big city (GP Farm?)... Not for whipping...

I know still a lot for me to read... But thought I should respond to this quick...

 

[pigswill]

The reason I'm so 'hell bent' on raising science is that astronomy, gunpowder, chemistry and steel don't come out of nowhere. We don't need every city to be a whipping city and I think we would benefit greatly from a science city.You having done the maths I'll go with Kyoto as 1 samurai/3 turns indefinitely without HE/Globe and that can start as soon as we have iron available (tho in fact this also has to wait on astronomy for the happy resources). So we'll look elsewhere for HE; it would be foolish not to build it somewhere; it costs 200 hammers but after 5 galleons/frigates/samurai it makes a profit.

Edit: Had another look at the save. We're not only too far behind to trade for any tech but our current economy and research rate indicates that we'll never be able to tech trade; that means researching the hard way. At 100 beakers/turn (current break even rate) that's a lot of turns. Cats help a lot but a stack of samurai against grenadiers or rifles is still not great odds and it needs to be considered that AI can use cats against our stacks as easily as we can use cats against their cities. Yes, we'll probably be able to wipe out Mansa but that's not going to win us the game.

 

[namliaM]

You having done the maths I'll go with Kyoto as 1 samurai/3 turns indefinitely without HE/Globe and that can start as soon as we have iron available (tho in fact this also has to wait on astronomy for the happy resources). So we'll look elsewhere for HE; it would be foolish not to build it somewhere; it costs 200 hammers but after 5 galleons/frigates/samurai it makes a profit.

Yes definatly build HE someplace. I think we get it up the quickest and start using it ASAP in Osaka... But we are disputing that more or less cause we MAY want to put Oxford in there.... on day .... > 100 turns from now?
By which time we could can produce a samurai every 4 turns (without HE) bringing 25 Samurais.
or invest 2 sams (8 turns, 200 hammers) for HE now and build a samurai every 2 turns. 100-8 = 92 / 2 = 46 Samurais.

Tho for the whipping to start happening (i.e. Cats) we dont have to wait for Astro... We just need to garison some more units... which will free up after astro...
Cats/LBs/Archers I cannot find a good rithm for that...

Edit: Had another look at the save. We're not only too far behind to trade for any tech but our current economy and research rate indicates that we'll never be able to tech trade; that means researching the hard way. At 100 beakers/turn (current break even rate) that's a lot of turns. Cats help a lot but a stack of samurai against grenadiers or rifles is still not great odds and it needs to be considered that AI can use cats against our stacks as easily as we can use cats against their cities. Yes, we'll probably be able to wipe out Mansa but that's not going to win us the game.

AI dont use catapults as much in my experience... I had a look at the save as well... Only Mao has Astro at the moment. I am hoping we can trade Astro for atleast Engineering (2200) and Guilds (2200).
Maybe Guilds and Gunpowder (2691)?
Leaving Gunpowder (2691) => Chemistry(4036)

With our current economy (which will still increase slightly... due to some cottages beeing added to Osaka and some more cities beeing build on Hokkaido) after we send the scientists home we do 50% science at -8gpt producing ~108 beakers at the moment.
If we can capture/raze 1 city every 10 turns (100+gold) we can hold that science rate.
Or we can add 5 courthouses (which we need for the FP if we want that anyway) on Hokkaido in Madrid, Barca, Seville and Satsumo (Cordoba allready has one) and save 2gpt each on maintenance putting us break even on 50%.

In a few turns with the scientists returning to Kyoto we run 115, with 61 of those comming out of Osaka (33 raw beakers).
Osaka can in fact get atleast get 3 more (1 grassland and 2 forrest grasses) cottages, to improve science slightly...
To get to education where we can build a University (in Osaka for example) we need Paper (1345) => Education (4036).

Lets assume that by then our economy has grown to 200 raw beakers (which is way more than 100% increase) over 5300 / 150 = 35 turns.... and we immediatly install the University every where thats 25% bonus beakers. 25% of 200 = 50 beakers each turn.
5300 / 50 = 106 turns to just break even on researching Paper & Education.
Not to mention the investment of hammers.
Then we assume Osaka to have grown to 60 raw beakers (~100% gain over 35 turns) and we Magicaly get Oxford into Osaka (ie. Immediatly)
This would mean 60 raw beakers (100% bonus)
So we get an extra gain of 60, total gain: 50 + 60 = 110
5300 / 110 = 48 turns to break even.

Now we have an economy sustaining 310 beakers a turn (way more than triple our current) so we can research Gunpowder (2691) => Chemistry(4036)
Total of 6727 / 310 = 21.7 turns
This means to get Chemistry (offcourse still assuming we trade for Guilds and Engineering) in 35 + 21= ~56 turns

This is assuming offcourse a great increase in our economy.
Lets assume again that we trade for Guilds and Engineering. But this time beeline for Chemistry 6727 / 115 = 58.5 turns that is with NO increase in our economy.

So assuming a great increase in our economy Spamming Universities everywhere allmost immediatly... we gain 2 whole turns on Chemistry vs a setting where we have no increase what so ever (not even an Observatory in ie. Osaka, no markets/grocers/courthouses no where....)

Just the observatory in Osaka = 25% of 33 = 8 beakers. 6727 / (115 + 8) = 54.7 turns. with an investment of 225 hammers (2 samurais).
Even with above increase of 100%, 60 raw beakers... thats 15 beakers bonus (we would have the increase with or without the Obs, so dont need to account for that). 6727 / (115 + 15) = 51.7.

So if we account for only an Observatory in Osaka with no growth not researching Paper/Education will be 1 turn faster.

With or without Education we will want to stop research here for a while to get in some big upgrading of our top Samurais.
I will just repeat this (and change it a little)
Well what is our goal? Conquest right? Right...
What do we need?
- Catapults (we have)
- Samurais (we have)
- Galleons (we have, in ~30 turns)
- Theology (+2xp)? => Higher upkeep, Need state religion, which we may not want at the moment. And needs the religion in our production cities to be effective, this means Missionaries (60 hammers each) worth it??

1st Optional:
- Grenadiers (Guilds (2242) => Gunpowder (2691) => Chemistry(4036) & Engineering (2242) )

2nd optional:
- Drafting and +2 for barracks (Nationalism) (4036)

3rd optional:
- Cannons (Steel) (6279)

4th Optional:
- Knights (Guilds, also in 1st)
- Cavs (MT) (4485)

5th optional:
- Riffles (Riffling) (5382)

 

[namliaM]

The theoretic calculation of whipping samurais. I hope we dont get the -1 penalty we see with archers...
If we we have to insert a turn of 5 hammers someplace extra...

Kyoto Base Prod 5
Basic Whip Pop
105 5
100 5 135 -2
105 45 0 0 Samurai
60 5 0 0
55 5 90 -1
105 45 0 0 Samurai
60 5 0 0
55 5 90 -1
105 45 0 0 Samurai
60 5 0 0
55 5 90 -1

I dont know how to keep the layout sorry...

Edit: Kyoto at size 7 is +10 food, running an engineer and 2 scientists.
51 food to grow without a granary. So with a granary ~25, on the 3 turn whip cicle of the Samurai means that we will still be growing slowly... to size 8.
At size 8 we can add a either a coastal worker (2 food, 2 coins) or a citizen (1 hammer).
Adding the citizen would lower food to +8 and add the hammer, meaning that in every 5 turns we get 1 turn "for free". Or we can whip 2 samurais in 5 turns, instead of 6 turns
Growing size 8 to 9 should be 59 food right? without a granary? Or 30 food with? so we would be "stuck" between 7 and 8 somewhere...

 

[pigswill]

namliam: I really don't think that we disagree on the fundamentals which is to develop an overhwleming force and sweep the continent, razing and pillaging as we go. I agree with you that Samurai are good troops; I particularly agree with you that grenadiers and cannons are the next stage (CR cannon are awesome). Where I think we disagree is on timing. My view is that we should spend 20-30 turns focussing on infrastructure before we go for all out war. My concern is that if we go for all out war too early we run the risk of getting stopped somewhere along the line and our economy suddenly tanking, holding us up by 50+ turns while we rebuild.
On a point of detail: Osaka is still the science city, Madrid is the place to build HE. Another point of detail as that I also doubt we'll ever build Oxford but if we can pick up education as a trade that would be handy.

Edit: Just checked out the results page. It seems the other front-runners (VQ Red, Ratpack) have also come to a halt. I wonder if they're going through the same process of re-appraisal that we are?

 

[bobrath]

Well I quite like my plan (#361 modified by #363) but I'd like to hear from the rest of the team and maybe I'd volunteer Captain Bobrath to draft the New Team Policy before playing on. I'd rather we waited a few days and played on harmoniously (well fairly) than just rushing it at this point.

I think the only question still be debated is if we move sooner rather then later. My input to that is to move sooner with the BT forces and try to fine tune Hokkiado to be ready to swarm within a reasonable time of getting galleons built over there.

Don't forget one important thing: pointy stick research. If we're taking someone down that is any tech ahead of us, we can allow them to buy 10 turns of existence in exchange for key techs. That will help reduce war weariness and allow us to heal/gather up our troops and plans for the next conquest. Pointy Stick research is "free beakers" after all.

 

[LuvToBuild]

Whipping every turn is not smart in general cause you get a penalty for whipping from 0 production. + to let the overflow go somewhere we have to skip 1 turn atleast, so that would make it every other turn?

Yes every other turn and that's what I said. I looked at it closer and you are correct. It would cost me 2 pop starting at 0 during my test but once the overflow was assigned in the next turn, I could whip again for 1 pop. You also need to let Kyoto grow back in that skipped turn. So you pretty much stay at the same pop the whole time and your pop growth gets turned into hammers for whatever you need.

I just don't understand the logic in not putting the HE and the Globe in Kyoto. It appears to me that putting the HE in Osaka would allow it to build Samurai in about 3 turns too. So Kyoto and Osaka could both be building a Samurai every 3 turns roughly. The problem with building those Samurai in Osaka, it takes longer to get them to the mainland and Osaka can't use the HE to crank out Galleons. I can maybe see Madrid having the same potential as Kyoto but it doesn't have the added benefit of being within two turns or less of the ring. There may be some places where galleons from Kyoto would take 3 turns but with our circumnavigation bonus, we can reach most places on the ring in about 1.5, maybe even only one turn.

With the HE and the Globe in Kyoto, you can crank out roughly 12 Samurai (4 Galleons full) within 24 turns, all without worrying about any unhappiness. Without the HE, you only get about 8 Samurai (2 2/3 Galleons full). Now, the bonus is, you don't have to travel for two or maybe even three more turns to get them to the front. Those four ships move out in the same turn and on the next turn, unload onto the enemy's doorstep.

I can live with not putting the Globe there but I think it makes sense to do so. If you don't put it in there too, then you have to really watch the whipping because if you whip every other turn, you end up needing to have more units there to cancel out the whipping unhappiness. These units cost money but don't help you win the conquest.

Explain to me why this short term investment of 750 hammers doesn't make sense? I can bet you'll want quick reinforcements when we start taking on the big dogs. Having a replacement unit in half the time and half the distance away by sea will be a huge benefit.

 

[namliaM]

I dont have civ at the moment (at a friends house right now).... so from memory and/or posing some questions

On a point of detail: Osaka is still the science city, Madrid is the place to build HE.

Madrid is verry food rich besides having SOME hammers IIRC forest, Copper and horse are the cities hammers source. Besides that Madrid has something like +12/+14 food. I would think it be a whipping place like Barca and Kyoto.

Another point of detail as that I also doubt we'll ever build Oxford but if we can pick up education as a trade that would be handy.

On a trade? more likely Extortion for 10 turn peace if an AI is willing.
Other than Astronomy we will probably not be "front runners" in the tech departement.... Thus eliminating trade after Astronomy (maybe 1 or 2 with AI loser Kublai)

If we are not planning on building the MAJOR advantage of Education, why get it? Why not take one of my optionals like Nationhood which is part of 2 optionals, which will help us with military rather than going toward Infra which we will likely not build...

Don't forget one important thing: pointy stick research. If we're taking someone down that is any tech ahead of us, we can allow them to buy 10 turns of existence in exchange for key techs. That will help reduce war weariness and allow us to heal/gather up our troops and plans for the next conquest. Pointy Stick research is "free beakers" after all.

Bob said more or less the same....

 

[namliaM]

Yes every other turn and that's what I said. I looked at it closer and you are correct. It would cost me 2 pop starting at 0 during my test but once the overflow was assigned in the next turn, I could whip again for 1 pop. You also need to let Kyoto grow back in that skipped turn. So you pretty much stay at the same pop the whole time and your pop growth gets turned into hammers for whatever you need.

Every other turn... sorry misread your previous post than...
Still its wasting resources... why??
OK here goes...
Instead of running 2 scientists + Engineer + Citizen at size 8 we can run 1 engineer and 3 citizens. At current we are producing 5 hammers. This would add 3. Making it 8. (this btw just occured to me)
In above example we whip every 3 turns with 3*5 = 15 hammer and a whip.
Now we make 8 hammers 2*8 = 16 hammers and a whip... We get EXACTLY the same with a whip every second turn without HE...

HE gives +100% with the production/whipping of units. Thus whipping 1 pop will basicaly generate 90 hammers, which it allready has because of the whip bonus.

And the happiness.... Well size 8, whipping every other turn we have +7 unhappy. From Hokkaido we get +5 happy resources (Gems, Gold and Sugar) and we have 1 more (Whale).
The normal happy cap is 4 + 6 = 10.
Unhappy we have 8 (size) + 7 (Whip) = 15, garison 5 Warriors/Archers/LBs and we have the exact same thing as the Globe, enough happyness to whip Whip WHIP.

I just don't understand the logic in not putting the HE and the Globe in Kyoto. It appears to me that putting the HE in Osaka would allow it to build Samurai in about 3 turns too.

Actually ... IIRC (No access to civ at the moment) Kyoto has 16 raw hammers at the moment.
Add 1 mined Plains hill (20) add 4 plains tiles (24) and 2 forrest (26).
Add 125% = 58 hammers or .... A samurai every 2 turns...
If Kyoto can get 24 raw hammers... Having the HE in it means a Samurai every 2 turns !!!

Same as Kyoto, Barca and Madrid I think... Madrid is actually hammer heavy for a samurai every 2 turns... Barca is low on hammers tho...

There may be some places where galleons from Kyoto would take 3 turns but with our circumnavigation bonus, we can reach most places on the ring in about 1.5, maybe even only one turn.

Do we want to do the MM of a Galleon chain??

can live with not putting the Globe there but I think it makes sense to do so. If you don't put it in there too, then you have to really watch the whipping because if you whip every other turn, you end up needing to have more units there to cancel out the whipping unhappiness. These units cost money but don't help you win the conquest.

True they cost money, but also help saveguard one of our main production cities. We will need also 3 or 4 galleons in BT just to protect the nets.

Explain to me why this short term investment of 750 hammers doesn't make sense?

I think I just did... or atleast for HE, maybe the Globe is worth considering to save the 5 unit garison... Investing in the globe would save max 4 gpt... But do we dare have only one defender in there? even with 20 galleons there may be some galleons (if any ??) that may sneak into BT unharmed managing to attack Kyoto....

 

[namliaM]

Just now getting to posts before my #362 and after eektor's #355

Maybe these are mute now... but... I like to be sure...

I have been thinking about this (as indeed have we all) and I have reached some fairly strong opinions.
i) Osaka should be the superscience city; keep it in bureaucracy, academy, science specialists if available, every research/health/happy multiplier available. Never ever whip in Osaka (if its our last surviving city then its a bit pointless by then). Osaka is the only city with cottages and it should have as many as possible.

I more or less agree. Osaka is THE SCIENCE city, but also THE only REAL serious (non whipping) city... we want IMHO to get it to 24 raw hammers and then to max allowable pop on cottages....

ii) FP in Kyoto asap.

Possibly, or on the mainland so we can keep some cities around it. Cusco seems likely since we will be keeping some land bound cities there in the early conquest. Cusco cause of the Pyramids and others just cause of the low upkeep if we build/whip FP in Cusco. In BT we allready have Courthouses causing low(er) upkeep. We would have to/ want to whip courthouses in Incan land if the FP is in BT. If the FP is in Incan lands, we can (I think) skip them.

iii) Need high food coastal city to locate HE; coz we're going to have to build a navy in a hurry. If we get to globe theatre then put it in the same city.

Just put a response to this...
We/I should have a look at what we can do to make a Galleon worth while to whip (ie. generate overflow)

iv) Do not build any military units in Hokkiado until we're within 10 turns of astronomy. We can whip them out fast enough and they're a drain on our economy (1gpt/unit!).

If we have nothing else left to build? Then what?
What do we need?
- Forge
- Granary
- Barracks
- Lighthouse (if applicable)
- Theatre ??
- A market in HIGH commerce cities (HCC)
- A library in HCC
- Courthouse
I think HCCs are Osaka, Madrid and Cordoba (or will be)

v) Get a couple more cities (and barb city) in Hokkiado, extra whipping material when required. While waiting for astronomy build money multipliers in shrine cities, missionaries for shrine religions; whipping builds in all cities (granary, barracks, forge, courthouse).

Definatly add 2 more cities and the Barb one... Dont know about others except for filling the land. I would let AI settle it and take it from them when the time comes...

vi) Ship units from BT towards first enemy, probably mansa and start war asap.

Yep... But without Samurais (and/or) Iron... its going to be alittle tougher... Even Puny little mansa...

 

[namliaM]

Heh, I can take off my TLC cap any time you kids want.

Take it off allready we are in a Warmongers game

My "gripe" over switching to no state religion was basically cause I asked about it right after my last turn set and I think it got lost in the whip madness, so I brought it back up. I think at this time every one of our cities has at least one religion. Under NSR, it will get 1 cpt per religion (and shrine cities get 5cpt per shrine). With the couple shrines up and running, any new city does have a decent chance at getting a religion in its first 10 turns. Obviously not as fast as getting an oblisk from inception.

No shrine needed... Just beeing the holy city is enough...

NSR may be worth considering (I think I mentioned this earlier as well in response to your earlier post)

Thanks for the mini demo on whipping Namliam - it will sink in at some point!

LOL... My pleasure...

I'll toss my hat into the war hard and fast ring.

- Invade now from BT (bye Mansa) via galley transported to german lands.

Or ASAP ... But as I just posted... Without Samurais will be a lot harder. It may be worth waiting ...

- The only cities we capture are those that are "just too good to pass up". In all other cases, raize away. Along with that, lets have a "pillage" squad that's sole purpose is to go behind the army and take out every improvement we won't use. Its free gold AND makes any resettlement have to start from scratch. Leave the roads tho! Barbs don't count against conquest victory (right?), and if they do spawn... they have just as much chance of attacking the AIs as us.

We want to pillage yes... Do you get Gold for pillaging in neutral lands? Or only in Enemy lands? A few knights will do I think...
We want to leave 1 road to connect cities on the mainland (A name anyone?) for trade routes and to transport new troops. Maybe even make a trace of cities which (nearly) connect to one another.
Maybe we should "sign" cities allready now that we want to keep and which ones to raze. We have near the whole map or atleast our early opponents...
Get the scout North to start scouting there.

- remember the AI aggresive bit is set, so once war opens up, we'll probably get into it with multiple folks. Keep the relation high with one or two so that we don't get a full on dogpile going. Mutual struggle bonuses can be nice. (does any of the AIs have a real "he's my buddy" relation with MM?)

I think MM is hated all over...

- research choices, I'll leave up to the group think: other then to say that researching anything non-military makes very little sense given our direction choice.

Choice? Choice? Conquest is our victory... Military is a must...