SGOTM 02 - VQ Black
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
LuvToBuild
Prince
bobrath said:
Yeah, I guess you're right. I should have known that since I've seen it mentioned before and I think I've even noticed it in SP games. It does kind of suck but I guess I see why it's that way.
Hmm.....well, that has made me rethink what I've seen in the rat graphs. After further analysis, I'm beginning to think that maybe they've just been building infrastructure (libraries,theatres,universities) and preparing an army/navy lately instead of going to war right away like I thought. Looking more closely at their graphs in relationship to ours, I guess we're really not that far behind them in power when you compare their power at 1370AD to ours. Probably the difference of a couple of units. Our power ranking will certainly shoot up pretty soon when HE and Globe are in place. Hokkaido will be helping to crank out units too. So in a nutshell, I think we're on the right track and we should be where the Rat Pack is by the time we hit the 1600 mark. That's around 50+ turns away, plenty of time to get our infrastructure in place and be building up our forces.
Now, having said all of that, CFR worries me even more than before. Have you noticed their sharp increase in score back at the BC to AD mark? Pretty much as I had feared. Everyone else seems to be tracking along about the same as us and the rats but CFR is going to be a team to watch.
Anyway, I realize now I probably have been putting a little too much emphasis on the graphs and making errors in my interpretation of them. As our glorious leader as said, let's just play and have fun. We can only try our best and hope it's enough to snag a top spot.
{DISCLAIMER: For those of you who happen to be a part of the Rat Pack and read this thread later, no REAL offense intended by calling you rats
}LuvToBuild
Prince
bobrath said:
Hmm..well for starters, you need...
My suggestions and recommendations, however, would be the following:
Techs
Trade Astronomy for Guilds/Engineering/Theology/Paper
How? Well. assuming of course that there are at least two other AI's without Astronomy by the time we get it in 3 turns, you should be able to pick up AT LEAST Guilds and Engineering by trading to one of them for Guilds and one of them for Engineering. I'm betting that you could get both to throw in Theology on one trade and Paper on another. The order you trade matters though since KK doesn't yet have Paper I think. So if that is the case still, trade to him for Theology obviously and get Paper from Huayna or whoever. I'm thinking Bizzy might get Astronomy just before we do, either from research or a trade with Hatty/Mao. Huayan and KK probably won't though.
Kyoto/Units
Kyoto should probably build catapults and put the excess into HE and Globe. I tried the LBM thing but it doesn't quite work as well since you have to go about 4 turns before you can whip it and be within the window. I'm not sure if you have the gist of what namliaM has been preaching but basically you put the one turn into a catapult which should give you 5 hammers, leaving 55 to complete the catapult. Since 55 is between 46 and 56 (the magic window), you whip it. Due to the, um *bonus* we'll call it, you get around 35 to 40 hammers flowing into whatever you build next, more than you should technically get. You then have the HE go next for one turn so it captures the overflow. Then rinse and repeat. This is about the only efficient scenario we can manage for getting the HE and Globe into place quickly. Whipping Galleons or Samurai at this point and putting the overflow into the HE or Globe won't work quite as well. Why? Well they cost more. The first magic window for those would be 91-112 hammers left. So you would need to put 2 turns into a Galleon (120-10=110 left) or 1 turn into a Samurai (105-5=100 left, can't whip 2 pop from 0). Each time you whip, you lose 2 pop instead of 1. It takes longer to grow the 2 pop back. So, you start to lose pop overall or have to hold the whip and risk missing the window. Plus, I don't think Galleons count for happiness, so you end up with a -1 each time instead of neutral happiness. Whipping a Samurai after Samurai after Samurai later though works because the overflow continuously goes into the next Samurai, putting you within the second magic window of 46-56 each time.
Other Cities/Units
As for the other cities, especially on Hokkaido, I'm not sure what to recommend there. I'd say try to get courthouses, libraries, markets, etc. Get started on garrison units so we can pull our veteran offensive units out and send them to Kyoto for a future strike on the ring. See about getting some counterstrike units going in Hokkaido to help fend off invasion. I would prefer to see a good balance when it comes to improvements. Nam's idea of workshops and farms around Tokyo makes sense. I wasn't sure what to try and accomplish there at the time. Chop in some Samurai or a much needed building maybe. I'm not sure if nam has any suggestions for timing chops but they would come in handy if there are some things we could do there to maximize efficiency. I think I'd prefer to see Barcelona be a commerce city than a whipping/production city. Your call though. You could try to whip in some Samurai in Madrid or just let it grow and get some specialists going for now. We probably don't want to grow the military too fast just yet.
Other Things
Nam or I should probably look at the merchant/scientist exchange idea and see if it has any merit. It makes sense hypothetically but it might not pan out that way. A GS should arrive NW of Osaka in Toledo Bay towards the middle or end of your turns. You can either merge him in Osaka or we could use him to lightbulb Education for us. We'd probably still have a couple of turns to finish it but that wouldn't be bad. Right now he will give Paper but you can probably pick that up from a trade. Being able to get some universities and observatories with Astronomy will get science up and keep Cos happy
. I tend towards the lightbulb of Education myself because if we end this game soon enough, a merged scientist probably wouldn't have helped us as much as Education and the increased overall science rate, provided we can get a few universities and observatories going.A Confucian missionary should arrive at Kyoto during your next round as well, I think. If you want to be adventurous and drive nam bananas, you could switch to OR and whip a Jewish missionary in Kyoto instead of a cat in the meantime. They cost the same and you could get the Jewish faith back to Hokkaido that way by putting him on the caravel that arrives with the Confucian missionary. This is something that could be good for the long term if we eventually capture Memphis and switch to Judaism for spying. We could still maintain the use of theocracy in Hokkaido while Jewish. You might also want to load up another Confucian missionary on the caravel the GS arrives in too. Get him to Edo. Oh, and OR, if we can afford it for a few turns, would help some with getting the HE and Globe built.
Anyway, this is starting to sound like marching orders or something and I truly didn't intend it that way. Just things to think about and consider. I'm a big picture kind of guy and these are things that I think we could do in the next 50 turns to help us in the big picture down the road.
EDIT: Small but important correction. I said "Since 55 is between 46 and 56 (the magic window), you whip it on the next turn." I should have said "Since 55 is between 46 and 56 (the magic window), you whip it." Don't wait till the next turn. You whip as soon as you get in the window, with the exception of starting at 0, i.e. the first turn of a Samurai.
Cosmichail
Dark Lord of The Sith
LTB...
Sounds good to me.....
I would like to see us in better power position but hard when we are 7th in GNP 2nd in landarea and 6th in population.
Sounds good to me.....
I would like to see us in better power position but hard when we are 7th in GNP 2nd in landarea and 6th in population.
pigswill
fly (one day)
We are going to need galleons to get our armies somewhere useful. One apiece from Edo and Kagoshima would help transport the collection of cats in Kyoto; it might be worth checking how many cats we can remove from Kyoto pre-globe without unhappiness. Maybe a galleon or two from Hokkiado to transport our better melee units. It seems to make sense to combine the Kyoto cats and Hokkiado sams into one stack before we start fighting. Getting this organised is likely to take the next ten turns at least.
As LTB said need to check out AI trades to max returns from astronomy. It might be worth using GS for education (assuming we get paper) to see if that's worth any decent trades; I've only just thought of this idea so haven't researched it.
Edit: Cosmichael; If we are second in land area then we could translate that into first or second in everything. However that would take time, given that the contest is about earliest victory I think that one of the things we do all agree on is that we don't have the luxury of putting off invasion until the 19th century.
As LTB said need to check out AI trades to max returns from astronomy. It might be worth using GS for education (assuming we get paper) to see if that's worth any decent trades; I've only just thought of this idea so haven't researched it.
Edit: Cosmichael; If we are second in land area then we could translate that into first or second in everything. However that would take time, given that the contest is about earliest victory I think that one of the things we do all agree on is that we don't have the luxury of putting off invasion until the 19th century.
LuvToBuild
Prince
Cosmichail said:
Believe me, I didn't start feeling comfortable with it overnight either. I've always had a distaste for it myself, probably to my detriment in many SP games. This is the first game where I've seen it be really useful. There are probably other situations but this one seems to be made for it. Anyway, I've come to grips with it and see the need. If it helps, I just found this because I remembered how the Japanese had this code and the kamikazes in WWII. Sounds like a good basis for a good storyline explanation of our heavy whipping in Kyoto. Basically, our people are self-sacrificing for the good of the empire, the Japanese way.
Bushido
Cosmichail
Dark Lord of The Sith
There are so many approaches to this game that everybody has found their niche or what the map has to offer. By going the big city/big science route I have found that at some point way outteching the AI and attacking with superior units. You are weak in the beginning but once those cottages/science city starts yielding you become unstoppable. Merging great people too and have many specialists really can have an effect. Having two or three good production cities for military gets strong military wise. I have played this way numerous times and turned monarch games into what felt like prince games. I have had in a super science city like 5 scientists and maybe 5 or 6 merged great people. (With Oxford yielding over 400 beakers science)
Pumping out GP's really can help in the beginning. Later in the game not so much. How many great people have we had. 3? and it's 1300ad. That's why I changed my mind we did miss the boat on science so our only option is war. To me there is a balance that has to be kept for the military to be strong and that's a strong GNP. Good population contributes to many tiles being worked however then production may suffer not using the whip. If you have good production tiles being worked in two or three cities you will be able to pump out units as fast as whipping. Especially when workshops are used with guilds/chemistry/state religion. Armstrong in VQ06B proved that when he turned all tiles into workshops at Karakorum and built the UN in like 10 turns or less. (not even a factory/or coal plant) Units come out in 1 turn. (infantry)
We are also right now 6th in power so we need to address that. Our religion situation needs to be dealt with too. We need OR to build, build those units. So getting Judaism to Hokkaido is a good idea but a waste of a lot of hammers. We do need the religious bonuses to get ahead. I like the idea of trading for Paper and getting Education which will give us many more techs we'll need.
I am for going against Hatty first but maybe we could find a deviation for the Bismarck. Start a war between HC or Kublai and Bismarck. Would that be possible? Hatty is weak and I venture to gain that with what units we have (good promoted ones) combined with cats could take Thebes. Then of course her holy city and it would make sense to be Judaist. 3 turns to Astronomy and get us some Galleons. I think we are stuck in a building mode and 20 turns away from war. That's too long and we need to put somewhat of an army together now and make haste. Taking Thebes would really hurt Hatty's ability to tech and we could hold until we reinforce. But we will need to change some building being done. Osaka should just pump out Sams now. Kyoto likewise with heavy duty whipping of course. BT will need ships as Hatty will bother us with caravels. She does have astronomy I think so will come on with galleons. So discontinuing with research al together isn't feasable. We need Chemistry soon too. With chemistry workshops yield (grass) 1f2h so same as plains forest. Chopping all that forest in Tokyo would get us an army fast too. They can be replaced with workshops as Namliam pointed out. One specialist city would keep our war effort going. I like Madrid or Barcelona for that but more so Barcelona since it has no production. We could just farm the heck out of it and pump out some GP's. Putting Merchants there would really help the war effort. That's it just one specialist city. Madrid with adequate production good for pumping our some Galleons. (I am sure there's a whip involved.)
Pumping out GP's really can help in the beginning. Later in the game not so much. How many great people have we had. 3? and it's 1300ad. That's why I changed my mind we did miss the boat on science so our only option is war. To me there is a balance that has to be kept for the military to be strong and that's a strong GNP. Good population contributes to many tiles being worked however then production may suffer not using the whip. If you have good production tiles being worked in two or three cities you will be able to pump out units as fast as whipping. Especially when workshops are used with guilds/chemistry/state religion. Armstrong in VQ06B proved that when he turned all tiles into workshops at Karakorum and built the UN in like 10 turns or less. (not even a factory/or coal plant) Units come out in 1 turn. (infantry)
We are also right now 6th in power so we need to address that. Our religion situation needs to be dealt with too. We need OR to build, build those units. So getting Judaism to Hokkaido is a good idea but a waste of a lot of hammers. We do need the religious bonuses to get ahead. I like the idea of trading for Paper and getting Education which will give us many more techs we'll need.
I am for going against Hatty first but maybe we could find a deviation for the Bismarck. Start a war between HC or Kublai and Bismarck. Would that be possible? Hatty is weak and I venture to gain that with what units we have (good promoted ones) combined with cats could take Thebes. Then of course her holy city and it would make sense to be Judaist. 3 turns to Astronomy and get us some Galleons. I think we are stuck in a building mode and 20 turns away from war. That's too long and we need to put somewhat of an army together now and make haste. Taking Thebes would really hurt Hatty's ability to tech and we could hold until we reinforce. But we will need to change some building being done. Osaka should just pump out Sams now. Kyoto likewise with heavy duty whipping of course. BT will need ships as Hatty will bother us with caravels. She does have astronomy I think so will come on with galleons. So discontinuing with research al together isn't feasable. We need Chemistry soon too. With chemistry workshops yield (grass) 1f2h so same as plains forest. Chopping all that forest in Tokyo would get us an army fast too. They can be replaced with workshops as Namliam pointed out. One specialist city would keep our war effort going. I like Madrid or Barcelona for that but more so Barcelona since it has no production. We could just farm the heck out of it and pump out some GP's. Putting Merchants there would really help the war effort. That's it just one specialist city. Madrid with adequate production good for pumping our some Galleons. (I am sure there's a whip involved.)
LuvToBuild
Prince
namliaM said:First reaction to the set...
Watch the whip (I know I am shouting WHIP WHIP) but whipping madrid twice inside 6 turns is just a little to much.... And a lib.... WHY???WHY a lib??
Man, whip, don't whip, whip, don't whip make up your mind.
Seriously though, I started with one unhappy citizen in Madrid and ended with a +2 buffer of happy/unhappy so it surely wasn't all bad was it? Besides, the library allows scientists specialists and will give some added beakers.namliaM said:
How about we keep Cos and pigswill happy. Let's get Paper through trade and pop Education.
namliaM said:Crap on the theatres and Crap on not whipping Kyoto (but for 1 time) Whip Whip Whip it ! ! ! It is (near) our only means of production. Produce Cats like crazy and overflow into HE or Globe... If we had done so from and throughout Pigswill's turns thru now we would have finished Both HE and the Market by now... All we have now is the Market, and that is due to the whip too....
Hmm...well, I started with 4 theatres and needed 6 to make the Globe available. I think a couple more theatres were in order, don't you
I actually whipped Kyoto twice, once for the LBM and once more for the market to finish. Could have probably managed three building cats but that's about all your gonna get in ten turns, maybe four every now and then with the timing. I agree, we might should have done that through the last 20 turns. We would have had another 6-8 in maintenance though, maybe dropped to 30% instead of climbing up to 50% for a short while?namliaM said:
Too late, already got a library there. Want me to give it back?
Why let the cottages grow and then destroy them? Besides, Madrid would be good for commerce and it can get higher production through priests (especially with Angkor if we can grab it from Bizzy) or whipping when necessary. Not every city needs to crank out a unit every turn or every other turn. Kyoto will be doing that already almost the whole game and is right on the front lines.namliaM said:
I thought that too but it's actually growing pretty well with the extra food and working the plains cottages gives a hammer along with the commerce.
namliaM said:
My view is the opposite. We don't need more and more production centers. We will need more commerce to keep us from bogging our economy down later and crashing science. Rule #1 - no such thing as too much commerce or science. If it could go either way, I'd say production but it is so production poor and doesn't have the whipping capacity of Madrid or Kyoto so I think its better suited for commerce. I think we need some tie breaking votes here. ( I think I'll win though
)namliaM said:
See Rule #1
Anyway, I understand the need for production but I guess I don't understand the desire for such production levels for the long haul. You guys apparently anticipate losing way more units than I do. I do see a need to crank out an initial army and to replace losses but after that, I don't think we should tank the economy and end up with more troops than we really need to take out one or two AIs at a time. Perhaps you guys want to or expect to take them all on at once?
namliaM
Deity
For any city ideas by me, check a few posts back. I really want to emphasize to kill that new cottage (Yeah wasted worker turns ) NW of Kyoto, right below the worker, in favour of a farm there. It irrigates the rice giving us +2 food (1 of the rice and the 1 of the farm) This would make Kyoto grow faster and worker more cottages earlier.
There are 3 AI missing Astro that are willing to trade (MM is not). So we should be able to get atleast 3 techs (hopefully). Maybe more?
Is it worth just pushing the button 3 times to find out? and stop right there?
I suggest trading to the lowest tech first, meaning Kublai. The chance of us getting a higher tech (education?/Gunpowder) is better that way.
On the other hand the risk of Kublai trading Astro on for his own tech parity is higher too....
Get Globe ASAP...
What do we need libs and markets for in towns that arent going to be more than 10 commerce for a looooong while. Osaka and Cordoba get those. NO others. Build or mass build sams on Hokkaido to compensate for now... add a few galleons from Madrid
Both madrid and Barca can be used to whip out a Galleon... But with madrid you need to aim good for the 46-56 hammers left to build window... to gain the bonus.
Kill the specialists in Barca... We need them to work workshops...
At 60% research rate (-33gpt) Kyoto produces 16 raw (6 from the scientists) beakers. So we either:
1) Get an Academy in Kyoto (+8 beakers)
2) Academy in Cordoba and wait for Cordoba to grow into it... (only 4 total beakers right now )
3) Bulb a tech we dont need (wasted beakers IMHO)
4) Merge to Osaka for +10 beakers
5) Keep him around to start a GA down the line...
Maybe add a Obs to Osaka... A monastary... possibly.... maybe... a grocer too.. but that would be all the infra we need for Osaka.
Where would we build the Universities other than in Osaka, maybe Cordoba (at the moment). And with 200 hammers (IIRC) we have better places to put our hammers. 25% in Osaka right now is about 10 beakers too... Since it will grow some more with more commerce it may just make sence...
After astronomy we should run 0% for a while.
1) Upgrade the swords we allready have.
2) Get a piggy bank untill we can fit an observatory into Osaka.
) NW of Kyoto, right below the worker, in favour of a farm there. It irrigates the rice giving us +2 food (1 of the rice and the 1 of the farm) This would make Kyoto grow faster and worker more cottages earlier.Every AI now has these techs..... Kublai is missing paper... But that wont get us anything... as paper is cheap.LuvToBuild said:Hmm..well for starters, you need...
My suggestions and recommendations, however, would be the following:
Techs
Trade Astronomy for Guilds/Engineering/Theology/Paper
There are 3 AI missing Astro that are willing to trade (MM is not). So we should be able to get atleast 3 techs (hopefully). Maybe more?
Is it worth just pushing the button 3 times to find out? and stop right there?
I suggest trading to the lowest tech first, meaning Kublai. The chance of us getting a higher tech (education?/Gunpowder) is better that way.
On the other hand the risk of Kublai trading Astro on for his own tech parity is higher too....
LTB said:
Get Globe ASAP... Uhm disagree this time...LTB said:
What do we need libs and markets for in towns that arent going to be more than 10 commerce for a looooong while. Osaka and Cordoba get those. NO others. Build or mass build sams on Hokkaido to compensate for now... add a few galleons from Madrid
Tokyo doesnt need anymore buildings untill atleast size 15, which is going to take a while. 15 happy and 18 health....LTB said:
Count turns.... How long is it going to take Barca to get up to some decent commerce? I would say >45 (15 for cottage + 30 for Hamlet). It has mundo food, which it will never use cause we leave the grass as is... Plus it will be a 1 hammer town for ever...If we put Workshops on them the go -1food + 2 hammers (3 later on) which makes sence to me.... 7 workshops * 2 hammers = 14 hammers (raw) per turn. Nice and still have +4 food to work the whip...LTB said:
Both madrid and Barca can be used to whip out a Galleon... But with madrid you need to aim good for the 46-56 hammers left to build window... to gain the bonus.
Kill the specialists in Barca... We need them to work workshops...
Yes we need to...LTB said:
MERGE to Osaka .... With +85% thats 10 beakers right now... = 10% of research budget.LTB said:
At 60% research rate (-33gpt) Kyoto produces 16 raw (6 from the scientists) beakers. So we either:
1) Get an Academy in Kyoto (+8 beakers)
2) Academy in Cordoba and wait for Cordoba to grow into it... (only 4 total beakers right now
)3) Bulb a tech we dont need (wasted beakers IMHO)
4) Merge to Osaka for +10 beakers
5) Keep him around to start a GA down the line...
Maybe add a Obs to Osaka... A monastary... possibly.... maybe... a grocer too.. but that would be all the infra we need for Osaka.
Where would we build the Universities other than in Osaka, maybe Cordoba (at the moment). And with 200 hammers (IIRC) we have better places to put our hammers. 25% in Osaka right now is about 10 beakers too... Since it will grow some more with more commerce it may just make sence...
After astronomy we should run 0% for a while.
1) Upgrade the swords we allready have.
2) Get a piggy bank untill we can fit an observatory into Osaka.
I wouldnt spend to many hammers on Missionaries... Getting a missionary to Kyoto makes sence if we are going to go back to confused. If we stay a missionary for Osaka makes sence, Madrid too. Others? Dont bother... we need some sacrificail units anyway....LTB said:
namliaM
Deity
Workshops are great, I say spam em.... Barca Madrid everywhere, use farms to balance where needed.
Pop, wonders, barracks/walls all contribute to power. The AI are high in POP, not military (we saw that with Hatty allready...)
OR to build units
??
Building mode? What buildings do we need?? Maybe an Obs in Osaka but that can wait, what else?? We need Samurais, mountains of samurais from Hokkaido... I am saying ~10 with the ~15 cats we have and a few Pikes and the promoted units we allready have... We can make a big dent in any AI....
On Barca I ask you, what will do us more good? 2 Merchants or 10 Samurais?
GPP is allready at 750, which will be 900 after the next GP. What 4 specialists make 12 or 26 with National Epic. That is 34 turns ! ! for 1 GP, the next 1050 is over 40 turns away. That is 70 turns for 2 GPs
Meanwhile its likely that either Kyoto or Osaka will pop another GP. Making the one after that 1350 (50 turns)
If we workshop Barca it will yield 14 raw (16 with an engineer) or 20 hammers each turn. That is ~1 sam per 5 turns. 74/5 = ~15 Sams. (not counting whips which we will do with production, not when going GP farm).
So what will help more? 2 GP or 15+ Sams? I know my choice.
@LTB Whipping lazy good for nothing angry citizens is allways good
OK that doesnt quite add up... but.. heck... my
on the theatres tho... yes we need them Hard and fast...
Kyoto is unit spam-a-lot yes, but only that isnt going to cut it. More units faster... = earlier win.
The cottages in Madrid in the end will not matter. Getting 6 (later 9) extra raw hammers, thats a boon.
+ there are better developed Cottages in Germany
why not keep them?
Keeping Madrid is just plain silly... It is a production city not commerce. Look at Germany, all flat lands. Perfect for them Cottages, with near no hammers. Same with cordoba, not much food to speak off and some hammers. Allready has +gold from the shrine Cottages makes sence....
Cordoba, we can get the hammers from the plains anytime, growing we cannot do anytime, it just takes times. + Food is a good production units, remember the
Growing faster allows us to work more cottages faster (important in Cordoba)
Re barcalone and science in General, In 50 or so turns we will have Chemistry (accounting for us picking up Engineering/Guilds and Theocracy from astronomy) After that how much do we want/need to research more?
And we have to grow those cottages atleast 45 turns to get anything real. There are perfect Villages/Towns allready in Germany Lets conquer Germany and we have 2 instant Barcalona's. But with developed Villages instead of Cottages. Granted Lib and Universities will be destroyed, but we (again) will not need them in Germany. It is there to support (market/grocer) not to tech. Again we have ~50 turns to Chemistry, what else (techs) do we need?
Rule #2 Beakers dont kill, Techs dont kill... Units do.
Take all the AI on at once... thats a novel idea... No... The idea is that we will not be keeping up in tech and we will be facing better units.
Sams vs Musketeers maybe even some Grennies
Grennies vs Cavs/Riffles
Therefor our losses will be high (in particular in the Catapult department) and a long supply chain from Hokkaido doesnt help. IMHO there are WAY better commerce cities with better developed cottages (i.e. germany *oh oh here comes that record feeling again* ) Why waste resources now on trying to (slowly) get some cottages to develop >45 turns. When we could take those same cottages from germany <30. Not to mention the great advantage of war booty over some commerce. 7*4 = 28 commerce in Barca in 60+30+15 = 105 turns... 28 commerce... With a lib and an Obs (yet more *wasted* hammers) = 42 beakers @ 100%.
In ~50 turns, maybe 60 we have Chemistry. How much tech do we need???
Seriously I have posted my tech idea a couple of times allready. Get to Chemistry and stop to upgrade all the samurais and Pikes we have running around at that time.
Add some catapults to those grennies to take down city defence and thats all she wrote even if we face Cavs and Riffles. Even Infantry should fall after a few suicide cats.
So Seriously, how much more (military) tech do you guys think we need?
Power rating does not equal # of units or strength of units.Cos said:
Pop, wonders, barracks/walls all contribute to power. The AI are high in POP, not military (we saw that with Hatty allready...)
OR to build units
??Building mode? What buildings do we need?? Maybe an Obs in Osaka but that can wait, what else?? We need Samurais, mountains of samurais from Hokkaido... I am saying ~10 with the ~15 cats we have and a few Pikes and the promoted units we allready have... We can make a big dent in any AI....
you either mean Guilds or you mean 1f3h....Cos said:
On Barca I ask you, what will do us more good? 2 Merchants or 10 Samurais?
GPP is allready at 750, which will be 900 after the next GP. What 4 specialists make 12 or 26 with National Epic. That is 34 turns ! ! for 1 GP, the next 1050 is over 40 turns away. That is 70 turns for 2 GPs
Meanwhile its likely that either Kyoto or Osaka will pop another GP. Making the one after that 1350 (50 turns)
If we workshop Barca it will yield 14 raw (16 with an engineer) or 20 hammers each turn. That is ~1 sam per 5 turns. 74/5 = ~15 Sams. (not counting whips which we will do with production, not when going GP farm).
So what will help more? 2 GP or 15+ Sams? I know my choice.
@LTB Whipping lazy good for nothing angry citizens is allways good
Yes we would have whipped 20/3 = 7 cats = 7gpt maintenance... and dropped to 30% .... We get Astro 1 maybe 2 turns later... But we have 8 more cats and the market/Globe/Theatre/HE sooner => More Sams. More sams + more cats = earlier conquest.LTB said:
OK that doesnt quite add up... but.. heck... my
on the theatres tho... yes we need them Hard and fast...Kyoto is unit spam-a-lot yes, but only that isnt going to cut it. More units faster... = earlier win.
The cottages in Madrid in the end will not matter. Getting 6 (later 9) extra raw hammers, thats a boon.
+ there are better developed Cottages in Germany
why not keep them?Keeping Madrid is just plain silly... It is a production city not commerce. Look at Germany, all flat lands. Perfect for them Cottages, with near no hammers. Same with cordoba, not much food to speak off and some hammers. Allready has +gold from the shrine Cottages makes sence....
Cordoba, we can get the hammers from the plains anytime, growing we cannot do anytime, it just takes times. + Food is a good production units, remember the
Growing faster allows us to work more cottages faster (important in Cordoba)Re barcalone and science in General, In 50 or so turns we will have Chemistry (accounting for us picking up Engineering/Guilds and Theocracy from astronomy) After that how much do we want/need to research more?
And we have to grow those cottages atleast 45 turns to get anything real. There are perfect Villages/Towns allready in Germany Lets conquer Germany and we have 2 instant Barcalona's. But with developed Villages instead of Cottages. Granted Lib and Universities will be destroyed, but we (again) will not need them in Germany. It is there to support (market/grocer) not to tech. Again we have ~50 turns to Chemistry, what else (techs) do we need?
Rule #2 Beakers dont kill, Techs dont kill... Units do.
Take all the AI on at once... thats a novel idea... No... The idea is that we will not be keeping up in tech and we will be facing better units.
Sams vs Musketeers maybe even some Grennies
Grennies vs Cavs/Riffles
Therefor our losses will be high (in particular in the Catapult department) and a long supply chain from Hokkaido doesnt help. IMHO there are WAY better commerce cities with better developed cottages (i.e. germany *oh oh here comes that record feeling again* ) Why waste resources now on trying to (slowly) get some cottages to develop >45 turns. When we could take those same cottages from germany <30. Not to mention the great advantage of war booty over some commerce. 7*4 = 28 commerce in Barca in 60+30+15 = 105 turns... 28 commerce... With a lib and an Obs (yet more *wasted* hammers) = 42 beakers @ 100%.
In ~50 turns, maybe 60 we have Chemistry. How much tech do we need???
Seriously I have posted my tech idea a couple of times allready. Get to Chemistry and stop to upgrade all the samurais and Pikes we have running around at that time.
Add some catapults to those grennies to take down city defence and thats all she wrote even if we face Cavs and Riffles. Even Infantry should fall after a few suicide cats.
So Seriously, how much more (military) tech do you guys think we need?
bobrath
Emperor
- Joined
- Nov 21, 2005
- Messages
- 1,238
Sounds good except for one thing...
What to do with the GS?
I've seen a couple different thoughts, but no concrete "do X because Y" Most recently Namliam:
You've still got time to weigh in folks.
What to do with the GS?
I've seen a couple different thoughts, but no concrete "do X because Y" Most recently Namliam:
Along with the suggestion for him to lightbulb all or most of Education for trading.
You've still got time to weigh in folks.
pigswill
fly (one day)
It seems inconsistent to argue that we don't have time to develop commerce/science cities and then talk about merging a GS. If we're going after highly cottaged german cities then the best thing to do would be capture one of them and use GS for academy there.
LuvToBuild
Prince
What to do with the GS might be a little premature anyway. He won't arrive near Osaka for 8 turns and then you'll need another turn or two to get him in Osaka. So you might just barely get him ready to merge before passing off to namliaM anyway.
Ok, I did the math and here's what I found. Adding an observatory in Osaka at our current science rate of 50% with no change in commerce and merging the scientist would give us 86 beakers as opposed to the current 64. If you use him to lightbulb Education and build a university, we then get only 82 beakers. However, if we build a university in Madrid and had say three scientists running there, we could more than make up for the difference. One thing I thought about is the fact that Education might get us another tech like Banking or something. Then I realized that anybody who has Paper, probably also has Education already. I could be wrong but that seems likely. So getting Education in order to trade it to others isn't a consideration.
Ok, I did the math and here's what I found. Adding an observatory in Osaka at our current science rate of 50% with no change in commerce and merging the scientist would give us 86 beakers as opposed to the current 64. If you use him to lightbulb Education and build a university, we then get only 82 beakers. However, if we build a university in Madrid and had say three scientists running there, we could more than make up for the difference. One thing I thought about is the fact that Education might get us another tech like Banking or something. Then I realized that anybody who has Paper, probably also has Education already. I could be wrong but that seems likely. So getting Education in order to trade it to others isn't a consideration.
Cosmichail
Dark Lord of The Sith
Education will be tradeable with Kublai if anything. Are all the AI's in possession of Paper? I thought only one or two had it. I have to check so don't quote me on that.
Yes NamliaM I was mistaken 1f3h for chemistry workshops and state property 2f3h. (more like a typo)
meow meow meow
Ok are we warring yet?
Yes NamliaM I was mistaken 1f3h for chemistry workshops and state property 2f3h. (more like a typo)
meow meow meow
Ok are we warring yet?
LuvToBuild
Prince
Cosmichail said:
Yeah, you're right. I forgot KK didn't have Paper yet. So we might be able to trade Education to him later on in order to get Banking or maybe Printing Press. Those techs seem possible with an Education trade and either one would be good to have. We can't afford to deviate much from our Gunpowder->Chemistry->Steel path so anything beneficial we can pick up through a trade would be good.
@namliaM
I looked at Barcelona and now I see what you mean. It will never be a super producer but it could be fairly decent with workshops once we get to Chemistry. By my calculations, it looks like it could turn out a grennie about every 5 turns. I haven't decided yet if using the extra food for whipping is better than running priest specialists or not. I'd have to see some simulations before I could comment on that intelligently.
I'm still not on board with replacing the towns in Madrid with workshops. I see no reason why we can't use the whip there when needed to make up for a lack of hammers. Plus, if we manage to snag Angkor from Bizzy, we can run five priests there and gain 10 hammers plus two from the engineer, the same as 4 workshops. We'd still have like 7 food left to run merchants, scientists, or whip.
Concerning Cordoba. Ok so you MAYBE grow a wee bit faster working the grassland cottages first. One problem though. The plains are already better developed so to switch to the grasslands cottages means losing a hammer AND a couple of commerce for however many turns it takes to grow more pop so you can work the plains again. In the meantime, you are delaying the further growth of the plains hamlet and villages . Not to mention the extra hammers are helping you to build a market, grocer, taoist monastery, missionaries, etc. It's all about balance. Growth is important but so is the commerce, hammers, etc. Balance, man, balance.
I think you misunderstand the emphasis on commerce in Hokkaido. While I agree with you now on Barcelona, I still think you're missing the point. The commerce isn't just about science. I'm perfectly fine with stopping after Steel and just running 100% gold the rest of the game. I think we should try to get to Steel first so that we can upgrade veteran catapults to cannons and thus lose less artillery against riflemen and infantry. We will want as much commerce at that point as we can get. More commerce means more units. It's not about the science. It's the economy, man. The science buildings just allow you to run a lower science slider while still researching and yet maintain roughly the same level of beakers that you were getting at the higher slider setting without the buildings.
One thing that i don't feel like you are considering with captured commerce cities is the fact that they will take a little bit to come on line due to the period of revolt, the period of building initial culture, and the possible regrowth of lost pop. Not to mention that ring cities are much more vulnerable to pillaging by the AI. I know they can do some good and I'm cool with keeping some cities like that but I don't feel like that should be our entire plan for commerce.
Have you looked long and hard at Tokyo? By my calculations, it's not going to be capable of supporting workshops on all of those plains tiles. Not without Biology anyway. We might want to leave the two plains forests north of the city along the eastern bank of the river. We might be able to pick up Replaceable Parts along the way and build a couple of lumbermills there and a couple of watermills on the other side. Something to think about anyway.
namliaM
Deity
meow meow meow ???
If we can pick up paper and find that Eduction is trade bate... sure Bulb Eduction, but we will know more in 3 turns...
Maybe another option trade eduction for Astronomy. It may work... Astro is 400 beakers more expensive...
The first trade would be Paper/sometech(Prev Guilds) +gold+maps (or something like that ). Wait 1 turn, try to get Education. Wait another turn and trade that on.
But that only really works if a couple of AI dont have Education and do have say Gunpowder. Which is why an opening trade of guilds + Paper could be advantagious.
It may seem inconsistent, but actually is not. Merging the GS gives an instant boost of 6 raw beakers or 2 Villages !! (45 turns atleast) at 100% science rate.
Or as we are running on 50% it is 4 villages.
*BRM* (Broken record mode)
If we plan on building the Obs in Osaka KILL science after discovering Astro. Spam a few Sams (~3-4) from Osaka and start the Observatory. Osaka is ~60% of our research budget, (60 beakers out of 100 => 36 raw) getting a 25% extra boon over that is nice, at 100% over 58 raw beakers... Well someone should do the math on that one... Last time I checked binary research wasnt worth it, maybe this would be.
We want to drop science for a bit anyway to upgrade those swords and Axe that we have.
*/BRM*
OK Some math on the Obs and Science rate.
At 0% we make 84gpt, Civ 21, Osaka 11 ( 6 raw)
At 40% We get +8gpt, Civ 112, Osaka 53 (29 raw)
At 80% we lose 72gpt, Civ 211, Osaka 96 (52 raw)
(Just for this calculation it makes it a bit easier in trading 1 turn for ~1 turn)
20 turns @ 40% = 2240 beakers, 1060 out of Osaka (580 raw) +160gpt
vs
10 turns 0% = 210, 110 out of Osaka (60raw), +840gpt
10 turns 80% = 2110, 960 out of Osaka (520 raw), -720gpt
--
2320 civ science, 970 out of Osaka (580raw), +120gpt
Or we changed 40 gold into 80 beakers. A 100% turnover where we have only 85% in Osaka. So even if we burn the 40gpt we dont match. So a slight advantage to the 0-80 run.
Now add 25% to the 80% run. 25% of 520 = 130 beakers. for a total of 2240 for our civ and 1090 out of Osaka (Raw dont change). That adds/saves 1 full turn of research. BUT only 1 turn and only 130 beakers...
Offcourse all this is counting from a stable economy...
Cordoba doesnt need an Obs for a long while, it may help to put a grocer there tho... 4 beakers vs 8gpt and at 50% both will rize 1 as 2 commerce comes in. Gold will rize with ever confused city, so a grocer makes more sence than an Obs.
Are we waring yet?
We need 2 turnsets just to get globe into Kyoto , after that... Who Knows? We can "big whip" kyoto for 2 pop in ~15 turns to finish the last ~100 hammers to do... Maybe even 3 pop for ~150 hammers to do. As long as we keep Kyoto atleast size 5 to work the 4 food tiles and keep the Engineer.
With a Whip every 3 turns, Build Cat (1) Whip Cat (2) Overflow to Globe (3)... and 10 surplus food on size 7. We will be using ~25 food to grow 7 to 8 and gain 30 food. Therefor we should still be growing a little and whipping for 3 pop on size 8 is doable.
The faster we get Globe the faster we can start transporting Cats.
If we can pick up paper and find that Eduction is trade bate... sure Bulb Eduction, but we will know more in 3 turns...
Maybe another option trade eduction for Astronomy. It may work... Astro is 400 beakers more expensive...
The first trade would be Paper/sometech(Prev Guilds) +gold+maps (or something like that
). Wait 1 turn, try to get Education. Wait another turn and trade that on.But that only really works if a couple of AI dont have Education and do have say Gunpowder. Which is why an opening trade of guilds + Paper could be advantagious.
It may seem inconsistent, but actually is not. Merging the GS gives an instant boost of 6 raw beakers or 2 Villages !! (45 turns atleast) at 100% science rate.
Or as we are running on 50% it is 4 villages.
*BRM* (Broken record mode)
If we plan on building the Obs in Osaka KILL science after discovering Astro. Spam a few Sams (~3-4) from Osaka and start the Observatory. Osaka is ~60% of our research budget, (60 beakers out of 100 => 36 raw) getting a 25% extra boon over that is nice, at 100% over 58 raw beakers... Well someone should do the math on that one... Last time I checked binary research wasnt worth it, maybe this would be.
We want to drop science for a bit anyway to upgrade those swords and Axe that we have.
*/BRM*
OK Some math on the Obs and Science rate.
At 0% we make 84gpt, Civ 21, Osaka 11 ( 6 raw)
At 40% We get +8gpt, Civ 112, Osaka 53 (29 raw)
At 80% we lose 72gpt, Civ 211, Osaka 96 (52 raw)
(Just for this calculation it makes it a bit easier in trading 1 turn for ~1 turn)
20 turns @ 40% = 2240 beakers, 1060 out of Osaka (580 raw) +160gpt
vs
10 turns 0% = 210, 110 out of Osaka (60raw), +840gpt
10 turns 80% = 2110, 960 out of Osaka (520 raw), -720gpt
--
2320 civ science, 970 out of Osaka (580raw), +120gpt
Or we changed 40 gold into 80 beakers. A 100% turnover where we have only 85% in Osaka. So even if we burn the 40gpt we dont match. So a slight advantage to the 0-80 run.
Now add 25% to the 80% run. 25% of 520 = 130 beakers. for a total of 2240 for our civ and 1090 out of Osaka (Raw dont change). That adds/saves 1 full turn of research. BUT only 1 turn and only 130 beakers...
Offcourse all this is counting from a stable economy...
Cordoba doesnt need an Obs for a long while, it may help to put a grocer there tho... 4 beakers vs 8gpt and at 50% both will rize 1 as 2 commerce comes in. Gold will rize with ever confused city, so a grocer makes more sence than an Obs.
Are we waring yet?
We need 2 turnsets just to get globe into Kyoto , after that... Who Knows? We can "big whip" kyoto for 2 pop in ~15 turns to finish the last ~100 hammers to do... Maybe even 3 pop for ~150 hammers to do. As long as we keep Kyoto atleast size 5 to work the 4 food tiles and keep the Engineer.With a Whip every 3 turns, Build Cat (1) Whip Cat (2) Overflow to Globe (3)... and 10 surplus food on size 7. We will be using ~25 food to grow 7 to 8 and gain 30 food. Therefor we should still be growing a little and whipping for 3 pop on size 8 is doable.
The faster we get Globe the faster we can start transporting Cats.
Similar threads
