SGOTM 02 - VQ Black

bobrath · Sep 1, 2006

Yes, that's right:

Course a few turns later he was willing to give us Banking for Astronomy instead of the Education we wanted... Silly AIs.

Total research "loot" for getting Astronomy:
Theo + Guilds + 10g from KK
Paper + Engr + 170g from Bizmarkee
Banking + 40g from HC

The first two trades happened right away. I also shopped our our world map around and managed the following:
Map for Map + 20g from Biz
Map for Map + 80g from Hatty
Map for 100g from Mao

I did shop around some resources (I may catch flak for my choices here)
Gems for Fur from Biz
Sugar for 8 gpt from HC
Grabs for 10gpt form Hatty
(and some others with the minor powers that I forgot to write down).

Only one demand this turn came from Hatty (in my second turn) to drop all deals with KK. Only OB at the time, but he was pleased with us and she was cautious. After denying her, she was still cautious.

The Theatres finished, but I'm still putting overflow into the HE. Sorry if the preferred choice was Globe. I didn't want to age out hammers from HE.

The GS is waiting in Osaka. He will lightbulb 2628 beakers of Education's 4036.

The cats in Edo and Kyoto were started in my last turn, so after hitting enter, they should be ready for the whip.

And now the story of a thousand screens!!!

Spoiler :

bobrath · Sep 1, 2006

Current Roster:
bobrath --> Just Played
namliaM --> UP -->Leader of the "Whip till you Bleed and Kill'em All" Party
Cosmichail --> On Deck
Pigswill -->
LuvtoBuild -->
Eektor --> Skipped

namliaM · Sep 1, 2006

Only 2 AI have Gunpowder thats good news... To bad they wont trade...

What are we researching? Gunpowder I presume...
Keep Germany in any case except for Dortmunt and the 2 previous Milanese cities SW...
With Versailles where it is... Indeed FP in Berlin makes little sence...
Cologn is a good city even without the wonder. Keep Thebes too. Capitals are usually good.... Former Egypt lands would make a nice chain to run units trhu... Keeping Alexandria would make sence as its close to Versailles.

Without HE our Catapults are stuck in Kyoto...

we need to unleash the power of Collateral damage... Soon...

Got it, play in 12 hours.

Edit: @Bob, you probably missed my crosspost on the previous page... To bad you didnt get that in before your turns....

pigswill · Sep 1, 2006

Had a quick look at the save. With increased happiness in BT from Hokkiado resources we could remove every catapult and still keep them happy.
We could land BT cats near Berlin and Hokkiado sams on other coast and combine them into one stack; take out Mycenean and immediately save significant cash on BT distance maintenance. Worth building a couple of pikes for stack protection.

Cosmichail · Sep 1, 2006

Good turnset Bob. Great stuff on the trades. That was a very productive turn indeed. We will be able to sustain our war effort with banking. What about mercantilism can we afford it? It's sure nice have to that extra specialist. Really depends on how much we are trading/import/export which I think is high so might not be advisable.

BTW improvement on the power very good and the cities when I look at them they have double digits. That's the way I like to see at least 3 or 4 cities. Will all be powerhouse cities if used right. I believe we need a baseline infrastructure/commerce and seeing that the AI has gunpowder and it won't be long until MT we need to keep science going to some degree. Whether through trading or whatever. I don't think we want to using Sams against infantry down the road. By the time we finish Hatty or whoever we choose we will need a more advanced army. At least grens if we are up against rifles.

I think turning off science completely is a bad idea right now. Just seeing one tech yield us 5 techs has me convinced we need to aim for the tech no one has and then keep afloat that way. That's how we did it in Emperor. There is an emphasis for Chemistry which can be a good trading tech but personally I wouldn't like to trade it away. Unfortunately we don't the luxury of keeping techs so might have to.

I know there will be disagreement but it's how I see it. Sams suck against cavalry and so do cats. This war won't be over quick don't kid yourself this is a war for the long haul. Who knows with aggressive setting we could end up in a two or three front war. A good warrior would plan but we are taking a chance. I think you are right Bob as soon as we start our war there we will be faced with a two front war. If we could get the Bismarck distracted then maybe we will put it off.

We are not ready for a two front war but in a sense need to have a contingency plan of sorts. That means a huge force of 15 sams/15 cats/10 Knights/5 pikes. Wouldn't hurt to have a couple LBM's too when in a defensive posture. Not to mention the many many ships.

Question NamliaM.

What good strategic sense does it make turning off science when we will need chemistry very soon? You said it "we need frigates" to protect our shores and the BT. 0% science means vulnerable shores/BT for a long time. (pointy stick sure but that's 15 turns away or not having looked at the save am not sure how the military looks)

I'm all for war but not in "haphazard manner". Well planned and strategically sound. However for I what I can see the last players have aided very much in improving infrastructure. Madrid has a pop of 15 right now so can you imagine what that city would do full of specialist. I think NamliaM you don't see the power of Specialists. (I have played with caste system and have gone crazy and was amazed at the results.) Kyoto/Osaka/Tokyo/Satsuma/Seville all have the potential to produce Military. That five cities producing and if you whip Barcelona (dont agree let it grow/workshops now 1f2h) So including that is 6 cities that will produce military. EDIT: Isn't chemistry here too paramount the sooner the better. Production would vastly improve and workshops would be worth it.
(you cut yourself off at the knee to not get the production/science you need for improvement)

Ok we have military cities and we have commerce/science/ cities. One set supports the other. One without the other collapses. You can say if we build this we could have built sams but we can build it elsewhere and leave certain cities for certain purposes. To me this is no justification of not building let's say Observatory. Didn't you just see the power of the tech trade. The city grows too so science is fluid as well and not written in stone.

We need chemistry/=science no getting around that. You yourself just asked what are we researching after just stating to stop research now. Our empire is coming together (especially after that good turnset Bob you helped science immensely, brought in commerce and now we can build knights/pikes.)

The battle is agreed upon it's just the methodology that isn't agreed upon. That's ok it stimulates debate and I could see your strategy in an early game with axes. We are up against: 5 fairly well developed civilizations teching fairly well. Why do I want some tech advancement. Don't want to be fighting Sams/Knights against infantry/cavalry.

bobrath · Sep 1, 2006

BTW, some of our income will drop as we declare war (10gpt from hatty for instance). From there if others start dropping deals, well we won't be able to run science at 60% with a small profit. We're 3 turns out on Gunpowder. Unfortunatly I see trading that tech away as a risk. Yes, two other AIs have it and could give it away, BUT any chance we have of the other AIs not having muskets instead of lbms is a good thing (imo). There will probably be a trade for Banking available with some of the other civs, but its a pretty cheap tech.

The three newest Hokkiado cities (nHc) were all building courthouses when I inherited the turns... why? They are reasonably close to our palace that maint wouldn't be crippling and we have enough already (I think) for the FP to be built. I swapped the coastal cities out to forge/granary/lighthouse as that will make a huge diff in growth. None of the nHc have any culture, although two are firmly confused and Fuji is one turn out with our final confused missionary. Fuji .... sigh in hindsight I shouldn't have wasted another 10 turns on its courthouse. Its freaking adjacent to our palace!!!! Please change that asap.

If we can run NoStateReligion for 7 turns, the nHc will all pop their borders. I think it will be worth the turn of anarchy to pop those borders so the three cities can fully work AND it removes some land that other AIs might want to settle (also removes the last bit of fog in our land). Remeber we will take a relations hit with some of the AIs, so 1) be prepared for that and 2) switch back to Judaism as soon as the borders pop.

I did not make any civics changes - much more intent on getting units and buildings completed. Mercantillism ... Currently 1 fourth of our income is from foreign trade (according to F2). We're a very large civ with many coastal cities. I can't do the math, but the other civs won't be hurt too much by us dropping trade with them as much as we might hurt our economy... Astro coming in was a huge boost to our trade routes. I mean HUGE. Going to Mercantillism will basically undo that. Vassalage .... the exp boost will be nice, but its going to be expensive - will the reduced military costs help? Not sure. As more of our cities produce units, the effect will magnify tho. Theocracy ... unless we are willing take the hit of negative religious relations with the world this (and any other religious civic) will be useless. I think we'll be pagans for a very long time.

I pulled back two of our fog busters to within our cultural borders. Any barb that pops up will attack Mao's city first and I'm fine with that. Saved 2 gpt by pulling back.

We have one galleon in BT (upgraded galley), one galleon outside Barcelona (I figured Barcelona would be a good gather point for our forces - 5/6 voyage to the ring from there. Our two caravels are on either side of Hatty and are keeping an eye on her cities. We can't really defend our nets in BT at this point, but Kagoshima has the hammers to get some ships out asap.

I didn't do much about freeing up defending units in BT for attack duty. The only military units produced were sams in Hokkiado and cats in BT (Galleon from Madrid). I think once we get Gunpowder (3 turns), that churning out a musket (or so) for each coastal Hokkiado city might make sense to keep our homeland defense secure enough. Our rapid response force can be composed of releived defenders. In the coming 10-20 turns, more military cities will come online. I had to finish up barracks or other pop growth buildings in the cities.

Tokyo has one workshop built, another in process, and a farm going up south of it to support the workshops. The chops coming because of this are upping the production. I'd suggest chopping the forest on the border with Giza as Hattie's culture may grab them away from us before we remove her.

Leave Giza for the very last city we take from Hatty. Right now that one city is costing her a good chunk of GPT. Great! It keeps her costs up and that's a good thing. It will be an easy final attack for us and has almost no chance of producing an offensive unit.

bobrath · Sep 1, 2006

namliaM said:
Keep Germany in any case except for Dortmunt and the 2 previous Milanese cities SW...
With Versailles where it is... Indeed FP in Berlin makes little sence...
Cologn is a good city even without the wonder. Keep Thebes too. Capitals are usually good.... Former Egypt lands would make a nice chain to run units trhu... Keeping Alexandria would make sence as its close to Versailles.

Without HE our Catapults are stuck in Kyoto... we need to unleash the power of Collateral damage... Soon...

Lets remember in keeping cities that we have to be mindful of the domination limit. Sure some of the cities you list would be "nice to keep" but I'd like to make sure we don't keep so many that later on when we need a waypoint to heal from that we can't since we're hovering near the domination limit.

Not all the units in Kyoto are stuck there. There is a lot of resource based happy right now. Yes WW will quickly nuke that as we lose large numbers of cats out the gate, so we can't depend solely on minimal garrisons.

pigswill said:
We could land BT cats near Berlin and Hokkiado sams on other coast and combine them into one stack; take out Mycenean and immediately save significant cash on BT distance maintenance. Worth building a couple of pikes for stack protection.

Even tho getting Versailles right away sounds nice, its in an ugly defensive position. I'd much rather start on the north side of Egypt. Yes there is the one big stack there, so we'd be better of taking out one or two coastal sites first. Memphis with the shrine is an obvious first target as it takes away a huge financial advantage from Hatty and gives it to us.

pigswill · Sep 1, 2006

Good points bobrath. I tend to obsess about city maintenance costs probably to my detriment.

bobrath · Sep 1, 2006

(couldn't wait for the 12 hours to pass!).

I don't know if Hatty has any other horse resource plots... but if her only one is next to memphis... DEAR $DEITY. It has the worst promoted defenders, would remove a GA from her arsenal, deny her horses for those ugly knights, oh and that small little shrine sitting there with 28gpt just pouring through it. 28!!!! If that's not our first target, I think we're being silly. Lets just make sure we bring along some defenders so that we can be sure to hold onto it and speed up the conversion to Japanese.

bobrath · Sep 1, 2006

Just a heads up: I will be on vacation this labor day weekend (late tonight through early Tuesday). I'm not sure if I'll have web access or not, so if I do come up go ahead and skip me.

I'll check in for the upcoming 6 hours or so, but I'll be looking forward to the much more advanced results next week.

namliaM · Sep 1, 2006

pigswill said:
With increased happiness in BT ... keep them happy.
We could land BT cats near Berlin and Hokkiado ...Worth building a couple of pikes for stack protection.

Great, I hadnt concidered the happy resources

Thats good news... I will start transporting using the Galley if need be...

NSR may be worth it for a few turns to pop them borders... Theocracy will be worth it even in Judaism with Kyoto producing a Sam every turn.
Confused is not a problem as 2 of the big Judist folks (Hatty and Bismark are on top of our hit list). Losing the + with Mao doesnt mean much.

Mercantalism at this point is useless offcourse, but something to keep in minds as we continue to conquer, our city number is rizing and trading partners start dropping.

Yes, Rock, Cisor, Paper... Military cities support Tech which support Military... But check GERMANY, seriously check it... Also check Egypt... I propose keeping full of Both for the shrine income alone. Without any + Gold operators in place the shrine alone should bring ~25 gold (from memory right now). Let alone the more commerce of more Villages and Towns allready there... Why (hand) build more commerce cities when there are major commerce cities to be taken??
About Observatories... What do they do in supporting military? NADA Markets, Grocers + Banks support Military. Science is fluid sure. We will have Cavs and Riffles in 10 turns after which we have no need for science anymore. Why rush to something in 10 turns when 40-50 turns will do. Meanwhile we can spam (and use) Samurais and Grennies...

We need to stop science to:
1) Upgrade our swords/axe'
2) Upgrade our Axe/sword

As I showed in my calculation if we save up money now untill we CAN add your (beloved <= Not meant to insult or anything, please dont take offence) Observatory, we save a turn on research over 20 turns. First running 10turns no science then 10 turns 80%. If we research Chemistry in >20 turns we lose no speed, we gain.... This however was before the increase in commerce due to trade.. Gunpowder in 10 turns is nice....

Some tech advancement is fine... look at my optionals... Tho sams/knights/etc vs Grennies/Cavs/Riffles is doable... it is much harder than using contempary units... The thing, Cos, you and I seem to disagree about is building some i.e. Uni's vs ignoring them...Tho building both a Uni and an Obs in Osaka (even Oxford!) will speed along tech... We dont need to speed along tech... We need some tech, but have no need for Electricity...Cavs/Grens/Cannons IMHO should be the absoluut limit, after which we turn off science and any Uni/Obs/Oxford that we have build is USELESS... a pile of lost hammers which could have gone into units instead.

IMHO we dont need higher tech speed, the AI need to be slowed... How? Take down 2 AI (at minimum) ASAP. With Hatty and Bismark gone watch our tech speed up and Mao slow considerably.

I agree on not trading ANY tech from here on out, we will be researching Gunpowder & Chemistry... Which are 2 techs we dont want the AI to have.
IMHO Banking was a nice bonus... Any other tech we dont need, Education ... we need to burn the scientist (lose 10 beakers vs merging) and have to invest considerable beakers in Education (or burn another scientist). The 10 beakers will go towards techs we want. Unless the scientist will bulb something usefull military anytime soon I see no point in keeping him around.
Merge or an Acadamy in Cordoba IMHO are the obvious options. Now with the foreign trade routes Cordoba may well be worth more than 20 beakers to substitute for the 10 of the Scientist.

Courthouses in Hokkaido will save 2gpt each... Which was considerable at the time... and still may be... But we need units...

We do need some defenders for the nets... So I will be trying for a Galleon or 2... I will also be looking for my tool :whipped:

Osaka would be a more logical gathering point.... but in time we can have multiple gathering points/ships...

As long as we are (mass) producing units in Hokaido atleast 2 sams will finish each turn. Which will require some traveling to get to some boats, we will have atleast some response force present at any time. Some Muskets tho maybe good. But we need Sams first. Without war we need not fear any invation so why prepare for one?
Also any AI is likely to show a galeon of the coast of Madrid and finaly land near Osaka (where Spain landed too).

Giza and some Eastern cities for Hatty for an additional 10 turns to live in trade for Nationalism is definatly a good option.

Kyoto will never suffer from WW due to globe

... Hokaido will tho... Germany holds 5 happy resource which will help in countering WW.

12 hours didnt happen and it will take an additions ~3-4 hours before I can play due to RL. Maybe even tomorrow morning. So some more time for you guys to chime in on my comments above.

Memphis sure is a prime target I will have a look at the land of Egypt to check... However Memphis is on a pretty bad location dead smack in the middle of BT and Hokaido we would need atleast 5 Galeons full of units to have a shot at taking AND holding it. Then we need reinforcements quick... So we need some more galleons (on the way)....
So this is my suggestion...
Transport catapults and stuff into Germany (like we planned allready) Except now dont go for Mycena, go for Heliopolis. Next target Thebes and Memphis ... this means we have a short transport from BT, but a bit longer from Hokaido...

Oh would like to add Timbuktu to the Keep list (capitols are allways nice...)
I think I said this allready but... We will want to keep most if not all Judist cities atleast in our early going. which means keeping all of Germany, Egypt, Milanese and mostof Incan lands.
Raze most of the mongolian lands and we can raze all of china... Dont know how that pans in the domination limit.
In the long run keeping Judaism seems logical as the bulk of the (early) cities are Judist and thus will pop the borders soon...

bobrath · Sep 1, 2006

If you keep that many cities... we will pop domination. Remember, there's no way to lose a city in civ4. Yes each judaism city we capture will add 1gpt to our coffers, but don't forget to factor in the maint cost of one more city.

No matter where we "start" our war, it will be a bad site. While starting out of germany has the advantage of not needing as many ships holding units at sea, what happens if we invade and Bis closes his borders? or even worse jumps in on us? Memphis has the advantage of being coastal - that's one whole side that we don't have to defend and can land reinforcements *right away*. It also has the advantage of being reasonalby far from German borders - any forces trying to walk to us will be a long time coming. As we continue to take down Egyptian cities along the coast, our sea voyage becomes shorter and that's never a bad thing.

We're going to be in a bad spot at the start - Memphis is far from the worst and much closer to the best.

bobrath · Sep 1, 2006

Looking at the map of BT and the Ring:

There is 1 city "behind" memphis - Thebes. Its her capital and has (from what we've seen with scouting) her main stack. That means yes, holding our beachhead in Memphis will be rough, but once we do... Thebes and Heliopolis are going to fall and suddenly we've crossed the ring and have no land backdoor to worry about. In fact with Thebes holding sway over the only canal out of the ring, we're in a good place to begin affecting the sea lanes.

So in the first phase, we make a landing and have secured the top notch of the Ring. The second phase will be tough since Hatty's lands get wide and we don't see any narrowing until German lands. It will be rough, esp if Bis jumps in. If he doesn't then we will have broken Hatty's back by taking out her capital AND her main source of shrine income. She'll be done.

Third phase, we have to decide if we take down the mil-tech leader in Bizmark or if he's still amenable to us, leapfrogging him and taking down MM. That's more then a few turns away, but not unreasonable.

Overriding all of this land based war, we need to progress our BT based navy from just protecting the whipping nets into taking control of the BT to Ring sea. If we dominate it, we can land forces at will - raizing key cities, or leapfrogging past ones that are too well defended.

One other point: any city we capture if we start from German lands will be under immense cultural pressure right away. We don't have Hatty's cultural trait to prop it up, and there is some long standing German influence - just look at the map. That's culture we can't do anything about until we go to war with Germany. Surely we're not going to open up a war with Bizmark before we've removed Hatty as a viable civ!

All of that being said, I can understand the desire to minimize the initial Galleon investment in order to get to war sooner. If the german borders near Heliopolis are close enough that we won't waste 2+ turns walking through Egyptian lands, then I can see taking your suggested route of Helio - Thebes/Memphis

Cosmichail · Sep 1, 2006

Nothing beloved about the observatory it's just an option. I already said let's build some sams in Osaka first. Will see how it goes in practice and we can debate all we like but it will go as it goes. So have fun and leave some citizens around to keep the economy going. LOL.....

namliaM · Sep 1, 2006

bobrath said:
If you keep that many cities... we will pop domination. Remember, there's no way to lose a city in civ4. Yes each judaism city we capture will add 1gpt to our coffers, but don't forget to factor in the maint cost of one more city.

Holding (most of) the southern half and a few up north should trigger domination? And keeping most if not all Of Egypt and Germany wont be that bad in upkeep due to Versailles and possibly FP (thebes/Memphis?).

bobrath said:
No matter where we "start" our war, it will be a bad site. .... We're going to be in a bad spot at the start - Memphis is far from the worst and much closer to the best.

I tend to disagree (offcourse). HC is unlikely to join the war with Bismark or Hatty, Getting MM would make us a beach head with a (semi) save backline. Advancing east thru Germany and Egypt.
Offcourse taking the Holy city ASAP and going in 1 direction (Hatty, bismark, MM, HC, Kublai, China. Does have its advantages.
Going MM, Bismark, HC will mean that our troops will have to "waste" 10 or so turns to walk thru Egypt and germany to get to HC.

bobrath said:
There is 1 city "behind" memphis - Thebes. Its her capital and has (from what we've seen with scouting) her main stack. That means yes, holding our beachhead in Memphis will be rough, but once we do... Thebes and Heliopolis are going to fall and suddenly we've crossed the ring and have no land backdoor to worry about. In fact with Thebes holding sway over the only canal out of the ring, we're in a good place to begin affecting the sea lanes.

Look at where the culture of Bejing is tho... There is no way we can control the Canal without taking down the culture monster that is Bejing. We need to get a harbor city on both sides of the ring ASAP to keep Iron in Kyoto.

bobrath said:
One other point: any city we capture if we start from German lands will be under immense cultural pressure right away.

Again I have to disagree... Mycena yes, its under severe presure from Frankfurt allready.
heliopolis ("my" 1st target) is under no real pressure... Sure Germany will pick up some more land, but the city itself is under no pressure.
While building a stack there in German lands is much easier and defeding Heliopolis if Bismark jumps in is harder....

I still am not confinced about any route... MM looks tempting... but the trip back is a waste.... and crossing from Egypt to China isnt a real option either.
Options for starting with hatty are:
1) Start from Alexandrie
2) Heliopolis
3) Thebes (take out her big stack right away, hard to take.. Easier to hold)
4) Memphis (Easy to take, harder to hold)

I will try and work towards a landbased invasion as we are currently low on Galleons and atleast it will get our units that much closer.

*playing now*

bobrath · Sep 1, 2006

You know that feeling when you can see that a save has been posted, but there's no writeup, and you want to read it, but you can't cause you have to leave for vacation, but you keep refreshing the forum until your wife yells at you?

Yeah.... that's what I'm feeling!

Have a great weeknd all, see ya on the other side.

namliaM · Sep 1, 2006

I reuploaded the 1430 save again by mistake, but I cannot imagine this beeing a problem the save for 1490...

Spoiler autolog :

I turned the Missionary headed for fiji around to Madrid hoping for an autospread of Religion. Sure enough it did happen, unfortunatly it was Taoism... Notice Satsuma is the only city we have left without ANY religion...

I made this trade with Hatty, she originaly suggested we give her Sugar.

And the borders of Giza claimed "our" forrests.

I found Hatty's HE, it isnt in the most productive city... That is good news

, some bad news comming up later

Where do you suggest Hatty is going? She is heading west....

Some info on the defenses of Hatty

We appearently arent the most cultured civ in the known world...

The current troop status, we have some more units hiding/spying in germany... ~3 or 4 ...

More good news, This is Hatty's ONLY source of horse (other than trade offcourse). Bad news.... Cavs...

For the next player, I checked. There are near no Ques left... Except for some that we have hammers in allready.
I suggest we add some pikes as I build mostly Sams. I also was tempted by the $$$ so I started a bank in Osaka as units on foreign lands are costing us some $.
I feel if we must build Infra a bank at this point was most benificial.

I suggest we pull a worker (still quite some work to do) and a couple off settlers out of Madrid. I thought I made a screenie but... No go...
It is allready 2am, so please have a look at the save and let me know what you think... I left signs in the game... Do we need 2 maybe 3 more cities on the nothern part of Hokaido?
1) Inbetween Barca and Madrid
2) Former toledo
3) Inbetween Osaka and Seville,
Each 4 pop points provide unit support, lowering the cost. And they can pay for themselves... Even without the extra bonus of more production and unit support.

I didnt run NSR, we will want to pretty soon (if at all).

I think we left "my" plan 20-30 turns to late with cavs allready showing up. We can still take Hatty with Sams/Pikes/Cats, in particular without a horse source she will still be weak...
We pick up Chemistry in 11 turns @50% and +22gpt. After Chemistry we can consider running 0% for a while to upgrade some CR3 Sams to Grennies.

We can allready whip HE for 4 pop, at size 9 we would drop to 5.
Globe still needs 9 pop, probably 8 after this Catapult whip.
I switched building to Globe which in hinde sight should have been HE. This turn the Cat will finish. I suggest immediatly whipping the HE and having 2*overflow go to Globe. Then continue the Cat whip till we can finish Globe.
At which time we should be able to start whipping Grennies out of Kyoto.

Attack plan...
1) Heliopolis, 3 turn walk from german land.
2) Thebes, Best defensive position means attacking accross a river.
3) Land in a forrest and strike from there.

3 Seems the best (defensive) option. If we want to do that... Walk the cats and stuff across Hatty land. There are 3 Galleons currently in service, 2 shuttling from Hokaido and 1 from BT. 3 more or less about to finish and 2 more in 10 or so out of edo and Kagoshima.

1 seems the most executable cause we can move as 1 stack. Just need more Pikes (atleast 1 per Cav I would say = 5)
6*3 = 18 units.... Is that enough to take and hold the city?

Edit: sorry to tease you like that Bob

Cosmichail · Sep 1, 2006

Nice to see that Hatty has Cavalry and of course MT is out and about. We will then also see defense pacts popping up. The AI is moving faster than normal too and I wonder how well we can do with cavalry 15 against sams. 8 with mostly CR promotions. Pikes suck against cavalry. Rifles do better. Pikes do much better against knights.

We will need those cats and watch for Defensive pacts. Just keep going and attack at this point. Taking a look at the save only and playing tomorrow sometime. I don't know but our army is now outdated and we will need more advanced soldiers soon. I would say getting to her source of horses might be good and knights would help with that.

Cosmichail · Sep 1, 2006

I think we left "my" plan 20-30 turns to late with cavs allready showing up. We can still take Hatty with Sams/Pikes/Cats, in particular without a horse source she will still be weak...

To be honest I don't think we could have gotten to it any sooner. Astronomy just found out and without Hokkaido we couldn't take on Hatty. We need to slow her down as you stated. Anyways will carry on with your plan for heliopolis once troops are positioned.

The cavalry is kind of early. More argrument to do something now.

namliaM · Sep 2, 2006

Cosmichail said:
Nice to see that Hatty has Cavalry and of course MT is out and about. We will then also see defense pacts popping up. The AI is moving faster than normal too and I wonder how well we can do with cavalry 15 against sams. 8 with mostly CR promotions. Pikes suck against cavalry. Rifles do better. Pikes do much better against knights.

We will need those cats and watch for Defensive pacts. Just keep going and attack at this point. Taking a look at the save only and playing tomorrow sometime. I don't know but our army is now outdated and we will need more advanced soldiers soon. I would say getting to her source of horses might be good and knights would help with that.

DPs I would expect those to be mostly among the Judist pact... One we take out soon the other after that. The third is on the other side of the continent... I dont worry that much about this.

Pikes do do much better vs Knight than they do against Cavs. However 6 + 100% + 10%Combat + 25% Formation +10% defence = 145% => ~15 strength. Not without Chance I would say...

And we are due to pick up Chemistry in ~10 turns.

I forget to mention some stuff last night.
I MM Some:
Cordoba: Grow in 4 instead of 7
Osaka Grow in 4 not 8 (at the cost of 1 commerce and 1 hammer)

The Great Scientist:
Osaka has an Academy
Kyoto and Edo are next in line for top Beakers, Not sending him there.
Tokyo next. This will become a production centre... Dont need an Academy
Cordoba 8 raw beakers, with ~7 adding in the next 10 turns. 15 slower growing after that
Madrid is on 21 raw beakers on pretty much its max imho

Taking into account the 50% we want atleast 20 raw beakers to compensate for the merge in Osaka (6+85%). Cordoba will take a while to get there. Madrid is there but is stuck (more or less) below 25 for a while.
As we will be running 0% science, an academy at that point would be useless. So I opt for the Merge into Osaka, 10 beakers and 1 hammer.

We should be able to get Nationhood in pointy stick from Hatty and we have to invest (heavy) in Sam => Grenny upgrades at some point.
I see us, in the longer term (i.e. after Chemistry) building
- defensive Grennies, getting Combat/Formation/Pinch upgrades.
- attacking Sams, getting CR + pinch. Once CR3, up them to Grennies.
- we need 4 City bombard catapults (if we can get them) per stack to take down defenses. Or 7 non bombard...
- Enough suicide cats to be able to attack with Sams the same turn (4-5 pre defensive Grennies) .

SGOTM 02 - VQ Black

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