SGOTM 02 - VQ Black

Cosmichail · Sep 2, 2006

I thought about that later and would have preferred lightbulbing education for trades rather than merging. I thought there was some mention of it.

Pikes do do much better vs Knight than they do against Cavs. However 6 + 100% + 10%Combat + 25% Formation +10% defence = 145% => ~15 strength. Not without Chance I would say...

The pike start out with combat and a choice of combat/city raider but not formation until they do some battle or theocracy/vassalage is available so we start with +120% which is still not bad but not equal or superior until they do some fighting. Most of our samurais only have combat or are still promotable didn't really look. We have few highly promoted soldiers and feel we won't fare well against those cavalry. We have no pikes (well one) so I will have to build some (at least 3 or 4 before we can go to battle). I would preferred to start now.

I don't like fighting from Germany it has risks. With a shore landing and going for shrine would make more sense right now since we need culture bad. The cities in the south have no culture. We need to take shrine and spread the word or build some temples or something otherwise those cities will never pop their borders. You mention putting up more cities. ?????????? Isn't that wasting hammers too now or is that is just selective choice?

I feel in your statement "my" plan is pointing the finger at the rest of team that we didn't act soon enough. (I did mention this before but it kind of stuck with me thinking how much sooner could we have begun)

This is a team effort and I believe that we have proceeded as such to do the best we could considering what point we were at. I am telling you too that going to battle in this manner is going to have risks. "I have a bad feeling about this even though Hatty is weak in most of her cities."

But now I have to wait until I get some pikes there otherwise we stand a chance on taking a heavy hit from them. By waiting again just means more ability for Hatty to build more cavalry. More time for her to trade it away to the Bismarck or whoever more likely Mao will have it soon.

If the team says yes and start attacking once the two groups converge I will but it could be a bad move. We won't have the ability to weaken the cavalry first with the cats which is what I prefer to do and then attack with the sams. Not having enough pikes to protect the stack isn't a good idea.

namliaM · Sep 2, 2006

Re: Bulb vs merge I didnt think we had a firm consensus... Also I figure getting Education still to be a waste... MT & Steel should be enough (researching steel while on 0% science for a while)

Cosmichail said:
The pike start out with combat and a choice of combat/city raider but not formation until they do some battle or theocracy/vassalage is available so we start with +120% which is still not bad but not equal or superior until they do some fighting. Most of our samurais only have combat or are still promotable didn't really look. We have few highly promoted soldiers and feel we won't fare well against those cavalry. We have no pikes (well one) so I will have to build some (at least 3 or 4 before we can go to battle). I would preferred to start now.

like I said I forget to build Pikes .... sorry....

Both attack routes have inherited risks... We do need culture in those new cities... NSR?

You mention putting up more cities. ?????????? Isn't that wasting hammers too now or is that is just selective choice?

Maybe so, but Madrid is capped at the moment and while buildin units it grows ... It currently isnt working the rice. So if we build a settler or 2, growth will stop for a bit.
We can plant some more support for our units and build a cat or 2 .... On the short term tho Yes it is wasting hammers.

I feel in your statement "my" plan is pointing the finger at the rest of team that we didn't act soon enough. (I did mention this before but it kind of stuck with me thinking how much sooner could we have begun)

Definatly not meant that way....

"I have a bad feeling about this even though Hatty is weak in most of her cities."

What is the alternative? Start with HC/Mansa?

But now I have to wait until I get some pikes there otherwise we stand a chance on taking a heavy hit from them. By waiting again just means more ability for Hatty to build more cavalry. More time for her to trade it away to the Bismarck or whoever more likely Mao will have it soon.

If the team says yes and start attacking once the two groups converge I will but it could be a bad move. We won't have the ability to weaken the cavalry first with the cats which is what I prefer to do and then attack with the sams. Not having enough pikes to protect the stack isn't a good idea.

Definatly a bad move on my part for not adding a few Pikes in, I forgot, sorry... my bad move, mea culpa...
I think (like I stated in an earlier post too) that we need atleast a Pike for the 5 Cavs thats 5 pikes. Going in earlier, I agree is suicide. Unless we want to gamble that the cavs stay Garisonned... then we dont need pikes.

Sams/Grennies will start comming out of your nose when Kyoto gets HE...

pigswill · Sep 2, 2006

Is ti worth suiciding some units to pillage horses near Memphis? Agree we need more pikes. Might be an idea to have a pike in Kyoto in case hatty decides to attack us there. We need to start off near a border or wait for significant sealift so Heliopolis seems the best candidate for first attack. No recent mention of razing/pillaging, but still worth considering a scorched earth policy; cities we keep can of course be whipped for replacement units.

LuvToBuild · Sep 2, 2006

I actually agree with not lightbulbing Education. I had expected/hoped the GS would put us within 3 turns but it would have been more like 6 turns. He would have given us only 65% of Education and that just isn't enough IMHO to make it worth deviating. However, I think he could have done us more good by putting an academy in Madrid. Your reasoning and math for not doing so seems flawed to me. Madrid is currently second place in both the commerce AND the beaker department. Putting an academy there and whipping in an observatory would have given us +100% science there. You don't seem to realize that running 0% science only affects the beakers that come from commerce. Madrid could be running three scientists and getting 18 beakers with an academy, library, and observatory even when running at 0%. Add in a couple of artists and you increase it to 22 beakers. Every GS it pops could be merged and then you get another 12 beakers. Any way, I understand your apparent focus on the military and getting us in a war. We do need to hit hard and soon. But we can't be neglecting other things along the way just because we think our grennies and cannons are going to rule the world, therefore we don't need more military techs. We might found out that we really really NEED riflemen as cover units to counter cavalry.

namliaM said:
Could you elaborate on that? Why Cavalries and Rifles? What do they give use that we dont allready have???

eektor said:
Because by the time we get to Mao or whoever we save for last we are going to need them.

Mao and Huayna have Nationalism and will probably have MT soon enough, certainly by the time we get around to hitting them. We will need to upgrade sams that survive to grennies, meaning a few turns here and there of 0% science. Having some maximized raw beakers that aren't affected by that is a very good thing. I anticipate that eektor's plea for rifling, which fell on deaf ears, will soon ring true.

Cosmichail · Sep 2, 2006

Ok NamliaM I see that you didn't mean it that way so don't worry about it. That's ok guy we are just trying to get this game going whilst we have different outlook. Education at 65% wouldn't have done much good so in hindsight better to merge him. I like merging too but am concerned about our tech position. Start playing soon and feel we should do something about those cities not popping borders. (Khoisan hasn't done anything in 40 turns)

Pigswill I am planning to suicide some units to take out the horses. Plan on getting some pikes to that position and then start. So you will likely start in the heat of battle as I plan to get to it as soon as I can. I just don't want the army wiped out before I can do anything. Will start from Germany but not comfortable with it. Rather have my back to Hokkaido then the Bismarck.

I am also concerned (sound like a broken record) that we have no promotions capability. I just not used to playing with my hand tied behind my back. We are aggressive the best trait but can't take advantage of it. Prior to becoming Jewish Bismarck was pleased and Mao was cautious hatty was primarly the only one annoyed. With Confused/theocracy we could do some damage. Again it wouldn't be so bad but we are going for heliopolis first rather than the shrine. (Let's go to war mode then and have highly experienced units from start since we are using outdated ones.)

Well MikeP from Soooo's team says this: Quoting Rumsfeld (now that's scary) you go to war with the army you have not the army you want.

BTW I heard Eektor's pleas loud and clear. I typed my fingers to the bone to prove that point. Never played a game or SG where there wasn't at least once science/commerce city which Osaka is and with bank will get an extra 20gpt. With another 25% observatory get over 100 beakers. (Yep that my next build guys) (maybe just teasing na na sha na na na na)

I am also very very very confused about Kyoto. 40 turns ago we talked about HE/Globe and here we are and it still isn't built????? I look at Hokkaido and see Sams being built?? Hey I am really impressed with the specialists being used. Guess what I understand the overflow much better now. I can see that the cat in (me thinks Kyoto) has overflow going into Globe of 33 hammers. I did push for the market there too but where are those units coming from. Osaka will have to do that and leave observatory for now. WE SHOULD NOT delay war any longer and make haste.

Eektor's pleas for the movement of palace fell on deaf ears too for a little while and then it sunk in. We are doing very well overall. Yes I know I complain only to ensure all necessary input is there. Second in score and just need to reinforce army somewhat.

MY TWO BIGGEST BEEFS RIGHT NOW:

1. no theocracy
2. cities in south no culture stunted. (building forges should change to temple for 1 culture or monasteries for 2 or library for 2)

Cosmichail · Sep 2, 2006

Preturn

Change the two cities in the south with no culture to theaters.
We need to pop those borders.
Religion is not an option right now theaters will do the trick and easy to build.

T1

Tokyo finishes Samurai starts pike
Whip granary in Fuji overflow into theater as another city not popping it’s borders.
Hatty arrives with 2 longbowmen and settler.

T2

Khoisan added production for theater
Bismarck now settling on our land
Sell Mao copper for 6 gold
Mao gives us 50 gold
HC gives us 30 gold
Hatty gives us 100 gold
Science at 70% -33gpt (before bank in Osaka) Chemistry due in 6 turns.

T3

Osaka builds a bank starts a knight.
Looking at the Jewish Shrine and we’d be better off starting there.

Relations factor right now:
Bismarck +11 towards us.
Bismarck +6 towards Hatty
Hatty friendly a whopping +17 towards Bismarck

Whip the HE in Kyoto for 3 pop.

T4

Army is big enough to start war but still have soldiers enroute and waiting for some pikes. Decided to have at least two (one good upgraded add to stack so we are protected in jungle)
Whip theater in Kawisaki. (grows right back again and the borders need popping)

T5

Tokyo finishes Pike start Musketman
Satsuma finishes Musketman (could use a theater here too no culture)

T6

Barb galley bugging us in the south move galleon to intercept.
Loose a fishing boat at Kawisaki.
One galleon with soldiers at Shrine for taking out horses.
Galleon with 2 sams 1 ax heading to Egypt for shrine

T7

Galleon takes out barb galley
Start WB in Kawisaki

T8

We get chemistry and start nationalism but it don’t matter turned off science completely for 200 gpt a turn.
Mao gives us 50 gold.

T9

Fuji finishes theater starts barracks.
2 Pikes (one with formation) almost at our main stack in the HUN. We can build grens now but unfortunately cannot upgrade them on German land. We will have to take a city to do that I imagine.

T10

There are several cities building frigates (Seville and Madrid I believe). I forgot to check diplomacy for any Defensive pacts. I suggest we start the war in the next turns since the pikes are there in the next turn or so. There is two galleons awaiting at the shrine to take out horses and whatever else damage they can do. There are more troops on the way from Hokkaido. Two galleons and a cat will be ready in the BT.
Hatty also asks to trade Chemistry for Printing Press but decline of course.
Globe is 50% done now so a few more cats overflowing should do the trick.
Also upgraded some units on Hokkaido for better protection.

I didn’t want to start the war on the last turn and the pikes weren’t quite there. The stack is large and a lot of cats so should be able to do some damage. I suspect the Bismarck will leave us alone since he is +6 with Hatty and +11 with us which will drop to 10. Just watch for a DP which I didn’t do in my last turn.

Spoiler :

The Save

Cosmichail · Sep 2, 2006

Current Roster:
bobrath -->
namliaM --> just played
Cosmichail --> just played
Pigswill --> UP
LuvtoBuild --> on deck
Eektor --> Skipped

LuvToBuild · Sep 2, 2006

Cosmichail said:
BTW I heard Eektor's pleas loud and clear. I typed my fingers to the bone to prove that point.

Yeah, I know. I was putting myself and namliaM in that camp. I don't know that we could have done anything any differently though. Spreading our tech around wouldn't have given us grenadiers by now and we'll probably need them pretty soon. Hatty has Replaceable Rarts already, see the lumbermills near Memphis? Riflemen can't be too far away. With all of that shrine income, she'll be doing some serious LBM upgrades.

Cosmichail · Sep 2, 2006

We have grens now and frigates. Did a little begging to move it along.

pigswill · Sep 3, 2006

Got it. Had a look at it. Lets hope the RNG is kind. Won't be able to play until tonight/tomorrow coz we got RL visitors today.

namliaM · Sep 3, 2006

An academy in Madrid would (at current) be (at best) equal to maybe a little better than a merged scientist in Osaka.
Seeing as we all agree that we will be running (near to) 0% science at some point, some amount off time to atleast upgrade some (if not a lot) of Sams.
At this point the Academy will be useluss, 0 +50% = 0 or if we still run 3 scientists (which means building a Uni or Obs IIRC) thats 9+50% = 4 beakers.

At which time the Merged scientist will still be getting 10 beakers.
IMHO Madrid may get a couple of more commerce (I say convert them all to Workshops!) from growing cottages or coastal tiles. But not much. (hopefully) Soon Cordoba should overtake Madrid, but not for a while... And not making it worth the academy right now. We have ~55 turns (35 now) till the next GP which will be due from Kyoto or Edo I think.

More from me later... I have to run...

namliaM · Sep 3, 2006

Cosmichail said:
MY TWO BIGGEST BEEFS RIGHT NOW:

1. no theocracy
2. cities in south no culture stunted. (building forges should change to temple for 1 culture or monasteries for 2 or library for 2)

1) We are in Judaism, most cities wont benifit from it and Kyoto isnt really on peak churn yet....
2) NSR?/Confusionalism? Theatres=> Good one

Nationalism we can get in pointy stick IMHO, I would start Steel....

Nice going on getting us Chemistry... The thing with Riffles tho is that we cannot build sams anymore which are the only units (till tanks) that get CR promotions. Whip Grens out of Kyoto and Catapults/Sams out of Hokkaido, we have (as yet) no need (IMHO) to upgrade the Sams, atleast untill they get CR2 or CR3... CR3 Grens are unstoppable till Infantry...

LuvToBuild · Sep 3, 2006

namliaM said:
At this point the Academy will be useluss, 0 +50% = 0 or if we still run 3 scientists (which means building a Uni or Obs IIRC) thats 9+50% = 4 beakers.

??????????

3 scientists = 9 beakers
9 beakers + 25% for library + 25% for observatory + 50% for academy
Thats +100% which means 18 beakers. Why did you say 9 +50% is 4? It would be 13 beakers. Anyway, this is all pointless now because what is done is done. My argument is simply that Madrid has more food than it can consume and I doubt we will be whipping it all into hammers because we don't have unlimited happiness there. So if we run scientists there then we get a decent amount of beakers even at 0% science. I understand our need to run 0% science at some point. I think we should do what we can though to maximize our beaker output during that period. 18 beakers is better than 0 and might get us to another needed tech like rifling.

Cosmichail · Sep 3, 2006

I am going to start counting how many times NamliaM says "useless". LOL.

Pigswill can change to steel yep that's better although the draft is pretty good too. Hope RNG is kindtoo Pigswill. Just hope that the cavalry stay put or we go against them in the the jungle with pikes. (one with formation too)

The cavalry didn't increase so there is still about 6 or 7 of them. We have two galleons ready to take out the horses. I think Biz will stay out of it.

pigswill · Sep 3, 2006

Been looking at the save. A minor quibble is that it would have been better to convert southern cities (Fuji and Kawisaki) to confucian because of i) border pop ii)shrinegold iii)theocracy bonus and that's still worth considering.
Major quibble is city specialisation is virtually non-existent:-
Osaka ? science but building units, working hammers not cottages; yes we've argued this point loads of times already but its still not resolved. Even if we won every single combat the game is going to take at least another hundred turns and we can't afford to switch off research completely; there's never going to be a good time for focussing on improvements (long term gain) instead of units (short term need) which equally means that there's never going to be a bad time either.
Kyoto is at least straight forward whipping stick.
Tokyo: commerce or production? it has got cottages and workshops.
Satsuma: commerce or production?
Cordoba should be straightforward shrinegold city but no money multipliers.
Seville:commerce or production?
Barcelona: commerce or whipped production?
Madrid also seems a straightforward money/science city.
Fuji seems destined to be a straightforward production city.
Kawisaki:straightforward production.
Edo: commerce or production?
Kugoshima: commerce or production?

Hokkiado has currently 9 cities: I think it makes sense to specialise cities. I also think that given the nature of the game the balance should be tilted towards production. I do not think that it needs to be 100% production on Hokkiado. I think we should have Osaka, Cordoba and Madrid as commerce cities (cottages and commerce multipliers); Tokyo, Satsuma, Seville, Barcelona, Fuji and Kawisaki should be production cities (workshops and units).
I think that we need to balance short term and long term goals.

namliaM · Sep 3, 2006

4 is 50% out of 9 ... which is the bonus we would get for the Academy....

With the Lib and Obs, Madrid can run 3 scientists at 13 beakers. With the observatory (which we would still have to build) it would be 18.
Thus the academy yields not 4 but 5 beakers and a merged scientist in Osaka allready yields 10 Beakers. Thus Merge > Academy in Madrid counting 0% science and running 3 scientist...

Pigswill said:
i) border pop ii)shrinegold iii)theocracy

We are still in Judaism so i and iii are null and void... Shrinegold maybe, but sending a missionary to Fiji which at the time didnt have any religion is wastefull (to me).
Since all 3 new cities still have some stuff to build before units and Madrid wont... Confusing it imho was more usefull... Then we needed some Galleons out... Confusing the remaining cities.. Dont know if that is a priority... If we keep most of egypt and Germany, the vast majority of our cities will be judaist.... Therefor running Judaism + theo may well be to our intrest. As may be getting Judaism over to hokaido and spreading the word there.

Any city we currently have on Hokaido is going to production based IMHO (talked about this too before IIRC) Any city we start cottages in now is not going to do as well as any city we capture with mature cottages (i.e. Vilages and up).
Tokyo: Production, maybe even destroy the cottages but leave them for now
Satsuma: Production
Seville: Production (lost of chopping still to do and we have to irrate some grasses...)
Barca: Production + Whipped production, this can sustain all Workshops (not counting the Rice + Sugar) and still run + Food.
Madrid: We can leave the 2 Villages, but I would workshop the "real" cottage and the Forrest... Putting Workshops on both them Villages would add another 6 hammers.
Edo: Grow and grow, but whip some units every now and again within the 15 turn limit....
Kagoshima: See Edo...

Yes on Cordoba and Osaka, tho Osaka can spit out a Samurai every 3 turns while growing ...
Commerce multiplyers are most usefull in the Banking department IMHO. Tho if we plan on researching more soon an Obs may be in order.

I think we need no multiplying science buildings... If any buildings at all, imho they should be banks... or Markets (+

right?)

pigswill · Sep 3, 2006

One of the issues we have not really addressed is what we're going to do with all the cities we capture in Ringworld (big continent around BT). Three options are: i) Raze ii) Barracks and whip non-stop iii) Develop.
We haven't really addressed the issue of which religion if any (Confu or Judaism being the alternatives).This will of course tie in with the fate of ringworld cities.
So what it comes down to is are we going to turn Hokkiado into production centre and selected Ringworld cities into commerce centres (which appears to be namliaM's plan) or run Hokkiado as main commerce centre and Ringworld as whipping cities with extensive pillaging of improvements?
You also have to look at how many turns it would take before we start capturing cities with mature villages/towns; then look at cost of whipping libraries and observatories and how that affects pop. A cottage started in Hokkiado now will take 30 turns(edit: 45 turns in epic) to become a village (40(60 epic) more to become a town); will we have captured and developed any german cities in that time frame?
Edit:having checked out german territory only 1 german city has three towns, most have only one town.
Religion is a problem because we'll be split between judaism and confu regardless, so no obvious candiate for state religion for theology.

namliaM · Sep 4, 2006

Still a town now, instead of a village is nice (to say the least). I would expect some more towns by the time we get there.

Develop conquered cities? Why? Barracks and build units, maybe add a bank or a lib or something like that in selected cities bringing in $$$

With all the cats we allready have a few should get City bombard. Once 4 or so have city bombard we can start having 2 stacks.
Remember to use the Frigates for bombarding down coastal towns in advance. I expect we can role over Hatty once we have Thebes.

I am (as) guilty of ill preparing our invation, but do we expect to land on the forest.... Pillage the Horse, and fortify?
Or do we intend on taking Memphis? If so, we are lacking a few catapults.
I suggest sending most Samurais down CR path, only upgrading to Grennies when CR3...

We have to be carefull not to run out of steam, or catapults in this case. While Kyoto is still whipping them, it is unlikely... but once Kyoto starts Sams/Grennies... We need to start building them (somewhere), either in former Egypt or Hokkaido.

I would suggest keeping Judaism for sake of border popping on the new land, yes revolt to Theocracy (if only for City bombard Cats out of Kyoto for now). Once in egypt we can add 1 or 2 monastaries in some commerce rich cities to build us a missionary (maybe 2) for Hokkaido. If we get lucky we can be at war at 2 fronts, 1 moving thru Egypt and Germany. A third preparing/razing away in Incan/mongol lands.

Cosmichail · Sep 4, 2006

My intention at the Shrine was just to pillage the horses. We need to stop her ability from building cavalry. Maybe then move them around to join up with the other stack for now. Kyoto is whipping cats with overflow going to Globe. Another three or four cats and Globe should be finished.

Pigswill I hear ya but right now we have grennies and should start getting them to Egypt. Also once we take a city we will need cash to upgrade our samurais. Osaka although a science city is an excellent production and right now we need soldiers more than observatory. I think our stack wil do well if we go to the jungle tile and wait for her attack. (if she attacks with cavalry it will be in the first moves.) Please note that what ever happens Pigswill it's all we had to work with then. I wanted to upgrade some of the Sams but couldn't on German land.
Also agree we promote them to CR and am still not impressed with our religious situation. We should have gone for the shrine first and maybe gone ahead with spreading Judaism to Hokkaido. Even if Osaka was the only one Jewish with it's ability to build grens in 4 turns and theocracy we'd have some real killer grennies happening as well as Kyoto giving us promoted cats.

Difficult turn ahead Pigswill and I hope you don't feel I left it for you to take on. To be honest I wasn't comfortable using that stack with no defense against cavalry. Even in jungle sams would not have faired well. Pikes will have 1 145% + 50% defense in jungle and second 120% + 50 % defense in jungle which should hold off some cavalry and the RNG is kind.

pigswill · Sep 4, 2006

Finished my set; posted the save. We've captured elephantine, razed one city, about ready to attack/raze a third. Detailed post to follow in the morning.

SGOTM 02 - VQ Black

Dark Lord of The Sith

Deity

fly (one day)

Prince

Dark Lord of The Sith

Dark Lord of The Sith

Dark Lord of The Sith

Prince

Dark Lord of The Sith

fly (one day)

Deity

Deity

Prince

Dark Lord of The Sith

fly (one day)

Deity

fly (one day)

Deity

Dark Lord of The Sith

fly (one day)

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