SGOTM 02 - VQ Black

[namliaM]

Seeing as that Plains tile is NOT showing any commerce, settling on that tile DOES NOT give you access to the river and its 2

Well we must be war mongers, but I dont like the early Theology path much... those 2 XP just dont make that much of a difference... Where an early tech lead makes that much more of a difference....
I.e.
CR2 axe vs CD1 Archer or CR1 Mace/Samurai vs CD1 Archer
CR2 axe vs CD1 Longbow or CR1 Mace/Samurai vs CD1 Longbow

I know which one I favour....

About a pallace jump, I would suggest not jumping it to city #2... Our third city would/should be more inland and a better spot for a new Palace...

The happy cap in STICK or anywhere for that matter is another pro for us to build the PST or capture it real early like... With Representation and the +2 and the +3 for specialists... That would really help

 

[bobrath]

and PST is short for?

 

[eektor]

I didn't propose to do a standard CS slingshot. I meant we research Mysticism, Meditation or Polytheism, Priesthood. While building oracle research pottery and writing, Oracle gives us CoL and then use a great prophet for CS. That's what I was trying to say.

One problem if we do it this way or doing the GP way you said, it would be very hard for us to get the pyramids with us putting Masonry on hold until after we get CS.

For the question if a CS slingshot is even possible on Monarch. All you have to do is check out SGOTM1 CFR and you can see its been done and it didn't seem like there was any luck involved, they built the Oracle early enough to get it.

I agree with namliam that the palace would probably best be built in a city more inland once we get an idea of the shape of the continent we are on.

Is PST the pyramids?

 

[namliaM]

Yes Pointy Stone Thing (PST (tm)) = Pyramids, I dont know that many Pointy Stone Buildings currently in CIV....

Avoiding masonry and getting the PST is not .... the easiest thing to do...
Is it worth it doing a narrow beeling for CoL and bagging CS with the Oracle? No worker techs => No workers => More settlers => More research power?
Myst => Meditation => Priesthood => Writing => CoL
Do you need AH or Pottery for Writing?

 

[Cosmichail]

For the question if a CS slingshot is even possible on Monarch.

It's doable with marble and good production.

Don't forget we are on raging barbs and have to make sure we have adequate defenses. Also avoiding masonry is a pain and beelining to COL risky. We don't really have the production there and should get a third city happening that has production for the Oracle and then maybe try for slingshot. If we come across marble then we might have to research masonry.

How long would it take to do this. We would need AH for writing or pottery, then Meditation > Priesthood (oracle) and then start COL. Oracle would have to finish just afterwards. Skipping archery/bw and the necessary defenses we would need against raging barbs. Getting the settler out with weak defenders is a crapshoot. We definitely would have to get archery (who knows maybe a hut will give it to us if there are any) and then proceed down this path since we can hold out with archers and forego axes for a while.
Copper is another crapshoot in the way it very rarely shows up in the BFC and sometimes distant.

So tech path suggestion:
Hunting>archery
Meditation>Priesthood>COL

Build path
warrior>warrior>archer>settler (do we have any worker techs at this point)

I always like BW too sooner than later for whipping/chopping.

 

[eektor]

What are toku's starting techs? I thought they were Fishing and the Wheel. From the discussion I think its Fishing and Mysticism.

I would much rather beeline to BW first before we think about researching hunting and archery. BW gives us more flexibility. If we don't have copper, ok we can still revolt to slavery and we can also chop the forest. If we do hunting and archery and then later discover BW and have a copper beside us, we wasted our early research on something that wasn't needed.

@namliaM if Toku's starting techs is Fishing and the Wheel, we would just need Pottery to research Writing.

 

[bobrath]

His techs are indeed fishing and wheel

 

[pigswill]

Respectfully disagree re bronze first. No guarantee we'll have copper anywhere near us. Going mining/bw/hunting/archery is not good with angry barbs around. Archers are rarely wasted.

 

[eektor]

Ok let me see what we got so far

City placement
1. NW
2. 2 North

Tech line (a bunch of different opinions, tell me if I missed anything)
1. Hunting, Archery
2. Mining, BW
3. Mysticism, Pottery, Meditation, Priesthood, Writing


How about build order?
For Kyoto, I think workboat, warrior, workboat, workboat, workboat, warrior or archer or spearmen or axeman, library

New city (Tokyo?) (I think would depend on the tech line)
But maybe (1) Worker, Warrior, Warrior or (2) Warrior, Worker, Warrior

 

[bobrath]

For Kyoto, I'd leave a warrior until... well imo until we've got all four sea resources hooked up. Barbs galleys are a ways off, and I don't know the last time I saw one with actual units in it. My thought on defenders is hat once the first caravel spots us, then we start prepping defense. Only reason to do defenders earlier is for HR happieness.

I think with raging barbs, the first build would be warrior and not an unescorted worker.

 

[eektor]

Yeah, I agree with you for Kyoto. I just put that there because I figured we can just pop rush a warrior np. Pushing it back shouldn't be bad and we wouldn't encounter any barbs anytime soon. I haven't seen any units on barb ships either.

As for the new city, we can build a worker and get two warriors out before the barbs come. But I would go for warrior first if we aren't planning on researching any worker improvements. If we settle NW and go pottery, I would want the worker to get a cottage on the fp asap. If we go 2N and research agriculture a farm on the rice. If we go 2N and research mining a mine on the hill. If not then lets go warrior first.

 

[bobrath]

I'd rather get kyoto up to its max growth asap. So instead of pop rushing a defender near the start, wait and get that city cranking sooner. Add in the extra income from the worked ocean tiles and that means we're accelerating the research rate as well. Avoiding Kyoto defenders will keep the unit costs down as well.

We have a "worker" tech already with the wheel. What's the research time on pottery or agri or mining in epic (as compared to worker build time)?

 

[eektor]

We have a "worker" tech already with the wheel. What's the research time on pottery or agri or mining in epic (as compared to worker build time)?

I don't know, I've never played a monarch game with two cities right at the start and paying maintenance at the beginning.

The way I see it we would have at the best 5 commerce to start with and the worst 4 commerce from the tiles worked on the two cities. The palace gives some commerce right? 7 or 8? Well if we can figure out the maintenance we can see how much time the worker techs will take.

I'm going to try to run a small test case this weekend and see what the maintenance usually is and whether distance is going to affect it that much at the beginning.

 

[namliaM]

How about build order?
For Kyoto, I think workboat, warrior, workboat, workboat, workboat, warrior or archer or spearmen or axeman, library

Warrior to be timed when/where needed. No need for archer or anything upscale defence for a long while.... Having a (token) defender @ Kyoto gives +1 happy even if we are not in HR (or actualy saves a -1 we need protection penalty, them dumb Ch*ts dont know they cannot be attacked). Ideally we want to have the warrior just before we hit the happy cap, if we can time it that good.... + we want to have some angry pop once we get Writing. Getting a lib FAST in Kyoto will make for some nice extra beakers.

New city (Tokyo?) (I think would depend on the tech line)
But maybe (1) Worker, Warrior, Warrior or (2) Warrior, Worker, Warrior

I would start with 3 warriors, why?
1) With only 8 tiles there will not be much to improve
2) Early grow will offset the upkeep of the second city a little...
3) Potential worker steal
4) 2 scouts = more land scouted fast. And if they can survive the early animals (bears in particular) they may just pick up a promotion or 2 and may end up surving us well as fog busters.

Both 2N and NW lose us the of the river... I am verry tempted to use the settler for a scout for a turn or 2 to try and find a good spot down the river...

Tech, as I would not build a worker of the bat... and if coastal and with Fish want a workboat first to... I would feel comfertable getting BW first. Tho there is a good chance we have to found a third city before we can hook up Bronze....
We want to have Axemen early enough, so we can deal with the barb axe'

 

[bobrath]

Both 2N and NW lose us the of the river... I am verry tempted to use the settler for a scout for a turn or 2 to try and find a good spot down the river...

Tech, as I would not build a worker of the bat... and if coastal and with Fish want a workboat first to... I would feel comfertable getting BW first. Tho there is a good chance we have to found a third city before we can hook up Bronze....
We want to have Axemen early enough, so we can deal with the barb axe'

Remember that given the location of the fish, that until we get something generating culture in the second city ... fish are out of reach of our workboats.

The thing is, if this were a normal game, then settling in place gives you the best chance at the hidden resources laid out in starting city spots. There's no such guarantee here (I assume). Course in setting up the map, they could have left the starting position in place and "built" a new city on that island - therby preserving the initial city optimal spot. Too much thinking!

Moving the settler may not be a bad idea, aside from the bad luck of moving it and then finding nothing better and thus having to move back home! Of course holding off on settling helps our fledgling economy.

 

[eektor]

Oops I thought NW was on the river. I should have realized by the lack of coin on that plain

Anyways, I like your idea of moving down river. That way we can save the fish and rice site for a good city later on.

@bobrath I don't think we should think too much on whether we are in the original starting position or not. I think its safe to assume the map is edited alot and we can never be sure what surprises are going to come up!

 

[namliaM]

Remember that given the location of the fish, that until we get something generating culture in the second city ... fish are out of reach of our workboats.

true but workboats are good scouts as well...

The thing is, if this were a normal game, then settling in place gives you the best chance at the hidden resources laid out in starting city spots. There's no such guarantee here (I assume). Course in setting up the map, they could have left the starting position in place and "built" a new city on that island - therby preserving the initial city optimal spot.

Ah yes but then TPTB are evil and my anticipate us thinking that, thus moving the capitol... Or they are even more evil and anticipated our anticipation

Too much thinking!

ah Yes...

Moving the settler may not be a bad idea, aside from the bad luck of moving it and then finding nothing better and thus having to move back home! Of course holding off on settling helps our fledgling economy.

A couple of things I am allmost sure of....
1) There will be a "nice" space between us and any AI to prevent to obvious a worker steal.
2) There will be N O goody huts anywhere nearby
3) There will be a few surprises...
4) The more things you know, the more you know you dont know anything
5) We will have fun

What would constitute a better spot, than the one(s) we are presented with here?
1N is a reasonable spot with FP, Rice and a hill in the first 8. But no river...
On the spot, not coastal. But I think I see 2 plains hills (likely spot for Bronze?) E-E and E-SE of the settler
1NW, FP but no other "power" tiles untill border expansion
2N Coastal, to much coast? Rice + Hill, lose 1 turn on settling.

I think it be obious we cannot delay settling untill we get BW...
I like the idea of Mysticism ASAP (first even) so we can start an Obilisk to pop that border....

 

[pigswill]

I favour nw despite it not being riverside (totally didn't notice). If we get bw before mysticism then we can whip obelisk in one turn; once nw city has had its first expansion then it becomes a much better city.
No rush for a worker in that case, warriors or exploring workboat to start. Kyoto will be much better once its got a library and two scientists but that'll be a bit later.

 

[AlanH]

I'm going to play my broken record one last time for each team:

Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

Anything I post there will NOT be repeated individually in every team thread. You may even find some useful information there now

 

[eektor]

Thanks Alanh! I just saw the information just now.

So the maintenance cost is 7 gold. I think that might be a big enough reason to explore a little and see what site is the best. I'm thinking Mysticism should probably be the first tech so we can build an obelisk asap.